Obama Makes Another Threat

[Whitecloak]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Whitecloak
no. you only sponsor terrorists as you get your asses kicked in every war.

Is the typical American as stupid as this guy?

the irony. :laugh:

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

WASHINGTON, Sept 15: Pakistan had blocked supplies to US and Nato forces in Afghanistan after the Sept 3 raid by US ground forces at a suspected militant target near Angor Adda, the US media reported on Monday.

The report by a veteran Arnaud de Borchgrave, who was also awarded Nishan-i-Imtiaz by the Zia regime for his reporting of the Afghan war, said that this was ?Pakistan?s retaliatory action? for the raid that killed 20 people, including women and children.

For almost nine years, the United States has been using a 1,200-mile route from Karachi to the Khyber Pass to supply its troops in Afghanistan.

According to the report, Pakistan is paid 1 million dollars a day for these supplies that include oil, food, heavy equipment and medicines.

Pakistan made it clear there would be no more Predator bombings or Special Forces raids into Fata unless done with Islamabad?s permission.

The report claimed that Washington?s reluctance to reimburse dues also contributed to Islamabad?s decision and the US paid 365 million dollars before the supplies resumed.

Mr Borchgrave claimed that before the US launched the September 3 raid, Pakistan?s new government had assured the White House that its ?consent would be forthcoming ? with a wink and a nod? from the country?s new rulers who had the same powers as former President Pervez Musharraf.

The report claims that the militants also have exploited Washington?s eagerness to kill Al Qaeda leaders to make it target civilian areas that lead to large civilian casualties.

?Some US intelligence analysts began to suspect that Taliban deliberately shows US spies-in-the-sky what could be interpreted as a busy guerrilla venue in Fata, and then makes sure there are lots of women and children at the site when the bomb drops,? Mr Borchgrave wrote.

?In World War II, German submarines in the Atlantic, cornered by sonar and depth charges, would release tattered uniforms and detritus to make it seem the U-Boat had sunk.?

Mr Borchgrave said that Pakistan?s decision to order a ceasefire during Ramazan also contributed to the US decision to launch the Sept 3 raid.

The United States believed that the ceasefire ?would have given Taliban time to regroup and plan their next operations with impunity.?

If we close your supply routes permanently if there is another strike what will you be able to do? The US needs Pakistani more than we need them right now. You are surrounded by hostile countries and you can't afford to get us on the wrong side as well. Otherwise the Afghan war will end in an even heavier defeat.

http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...an+blocked+us+supplies

It is in Pakistan's interests to ensure that the nuts running around in the tribal areas are wiped out. Else, as I keep saying, the Allies nuking Pakistan is becoming more and more a distinct possibility when the same nuts unleash another 9/11. After all, the West didn't face down the Soviet Union with tens of thousands of nukes just to cry uncle in front of of bunch of rag-heads.

But dumb Pakis who have a habit of over-rating their military prowess are brilliant at starting a fight but go running for cover when the heat is turned on. So bring it on.

 

[Lemon law]

Please understand, Americans don't sponsor terrorists, we only sponsor freedom fighters. Its a important semantic difference, lost on people unable tell the difference. Because terrorists and freedom fighters seem to otherwise behave the same.

Whitecloak isn't stupid, behold, he is smart enough to fool himself. And plausible denial in tact, he exudes irony

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is totally unacceptable.

Now they are conducting ground raids in our country.

I believe we have a right to defend our sovereignty. These raids are uncalled for and should be met with full force.

Why Pakistan's government has not taken a stricter policy against imperialism is a mystery.

It won't be much longer before the people take to the streets forcing the government to renounce US's 'divine right' to control the world.

We don't have much to lose. Our support for America has already lead us to the path of destruction from within; nothing that the US could do to us could be worse than us submitting to them and living like their slaves.

Death to the American occupation and invasion.

I'm not for "Imperialism" either but I certainly have no patience for radicals that want America and Americans dead as well.

You are lucky I was not able to run this time around.

Why did you not run? The Dems were waiting for you to solidfy their platform.

I'm not rich, you know that.

It's $5,000 just to file.

So find people that believe in your message and will donate to defray the filing fee.
You have had 4 years to plan for this, that translates to 100/month.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

WASHINGTON, Sept 15: Pakistan had blocked supplies to US and Nato forces in Afghanistan after the Sept 3 raid by US ground forces at a suspected militant target near Angor Adda, the US media reported on Monday.

The report by a veteran Arnaud de Borchgrave, who was also awarded Nishan-i-Imtiaz by the Zia regime for his reporting of the Afghan war, said that this was ?Pakistan?s retaliatory action? for the raid that killed 20 people, including women and children.

For almost nine years, the United States has been using a 1,200-mile route from Karachi to the Khyber Pass to supply its troops in Afghanistan.

According to the report, Pakistan is paid 1 million dollars a day for these supplies that include oil, food, heavy equipment and medicines.

Pakistan made it clear there would be no more Predator bombings or Special Forces raids into Fata unless done with Islamabad?s permission.

The report claimed that Washington?s reluctance to reimburse dues also contributed to Islamabad?s decision and the US paid 365 million dollars before the supplies resumed.

Mr Borchgrave claimed that before the US launched the September 3 raid, Pakistan?s new government had assured the White House that its ?consent would be forthcoming ? with a wink and a nod? from the country?s new rulers who had the same powers as former President Pervez Musharraf.

The report claims that the militants also have exploited Washington?s eagerness to kill Al Qaeda leaders to make it target civilian areas that lead to large civilian casualties.

?Some US intelligence analysts began to suspect that Taliban deliberately shows US spies-in-the-sky what could be interpreted as a busy guerrilla venue in Fata, and then makes sure there are lots of women and children at the site when the bomb drops,? Mr Borchgrave wrote.

?In World War II, German submarines in the Atlantic, cornered by sonar and depth charges, would release tattered uniforms and detritus to make it seem the U-Boat had sunk.?

Mr Borchgrave said that Pakistan?s decision to order a ceasefire during Ramazan also contributed to the US decision to launch the Sept 3 raid.

The United States believed that the ceasefire ?would have given Taliban time to regroup and plan their next operations with impunity.?

If we close your supply routes permanently if there is another strike what will you be able to do? The US needs Pakistani more than we need them right now. You are surrounded by hostile countries and you can't afford to get us on the wrong side as well. Otherwise the Afghan war will end in an even heavier defeat.

http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...an+blocked+us+supplies

Oh no! We run operations in your country and you cut off our supplies!

You still havent been able to answer to the fact that the Pakis are in on it every time we do something like that. Where do you think we get the intelligence? The token "Look people, we are doing something, we cut off thier supplies!" is just to keep guys like you happy. Guys who dont understand how close the US and beloved patriot intelligence services work.

Hey, it seems to work. Theyve got you convinced that they are hands-off. Poor brainwashed people.....

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: ayabe
So, you collect taxes from these people? Do you run the education system? What civil services do you provide? Who settles disputes? What influence do your courts have/not have in these regions?

The answer to all of these questions is either "No" or "jack shit", thus these are not sovereign areas. They are in fact run by whoever the warlord of the day is, right? They don't give two shits about your central government.

Until you sack up and assert your authority there, others will, namely the US.

They are autonomous region under direct control of the federal government hence the name "Federally administered tribal areas." They pay very little tax and we don't provide them many services. They usually have their own law system which we don't interfere with. However the supreme court can over ride their laws. The problem with people blabbering on this board that they really do not understand how complicated Pakistan really is. A country of 170 million will be. We have had no reason to confront the tribals until now. The U.N recognizes the FATA as part of Pakistan. Your claim of us having no sovereignty over them holds no weight until they say so; unless of course you still believe your leaders that said Saddam had WMDs.

Check your facts, I'm as anti Bush as they come.

But, I'm also as anti-AQ as they come. Your people aren't getting it done, and are putting up smoke screens.

We have waited long enough, it's time to bury these people.

 

[Lemon law]

Me too ayable, I too am anti-Bush and Anti Al-Quida, I just lack any faith that Nato will do any better. As you may recall, it took a year to find Saddam and he was hiding in plain sight in Iraq.

As for Ossama Bin Laden and the other top Al-Quida leadership, they are not tied to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other given location in the world. And in fact, there is no evidence to say
Ossama Bin Laden is in Pakistan at all. But long odds, if Ossama is in the Tribal areas of Pakistan, he will probably flee to some other Country long before Nato troops get close.

As for our vaunted US intelligence, even 25 million dollar rewards find no takers within the shell of Al-Quida's that may know where he and other top figures are.

As for the far more numerous Taliban, there is no way to tell them from the locals because they are natives to the entire region.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As for Ossama Bin Laden and the other top Al-Quida leadership, they are not tied to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other given location in the world. And in fact, there is no evidence to say
Ossama Bin Laden is in Pakistan at all.

You mean other than the fact that that's where he went when he fled Tora Bora? Or that Pakistan was the only country to recognize the Taliban, the regime that sheltered him before and after 9/11? Or that that's where the resurgent Taliban is reforming? Or that that's where Zawahiri is rumored to be? Or that the government of the country cannot or will not control those areas, which are ruled by the same type of militant sharia savages who bury their own daughters alive?

You're right...no evidence whatsoever. He could be in Lichtenstein for all we know.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As for Ossama Bin Laden and the other top Al-Quida leadership, they are not tied to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other given location in the world. And in fact, there is no evidence to say
Ossama Bin Laden is in Pakistan at all.

You mean other than the fact that that's where he went when he fled Tora Bora? Or that Pakistan was the only country to recognize the Taliban, the regime that sheltered him before and after 9/11? Or that that's where the resurgent Taliban is reforming? Or that that's where Zawahiri is rumored to be? Or that the government of the country cannot or will not control those areas, which are ruled by the same type of militant sharia savages who bury their own daughters alive?

You're no right...no evidence whatsoever. He could be in Lichtenstein for all we know.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First you complain about Sharia law which started at a time when Christians were burning Christians at the stake for similar infractions. And at a time when most Christians now reject those, most Muslim Countries now have abandoned Sharia law. And most of the resurgence of Sharia law can now be blamed on the anarchy and corruption brought back by the Nato occupation of Afghanistan, and its the Taliban and not Al-Quida that is largely advancing that agenda.

As for Rumors, as Azizibad taught us, they are seldom worth anything. But Ossama Bin Laden and the top Al-Quida leadership have not survived this long by being dumb. For other hiding places, think Africa, the Stans to the North, Indonesia, the Philippians, and that is just a short list.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

We're ordered not to engage the Pakistani military so how can they fire back when we do not EVER attack them?

I know you're being all nationalistic and gung ho about this TGB but in reality our orders stand only as long as we are not attacked.

You see, we could shoot every man standing, blow every aircraft you have out of the sky and your nukes are not a weapon you can even consider using, if you were to use it while going up against three nuclear nations who all individually have the power to wipe your country from the face of the earth then you would be even stupider than the Taliban.

IOW, we have a job to do and any obstacle in the way will be removed forcefully.

That's all i have to say on this matter, i'll be back in a few days since i finally got my wish regarding camp sites.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As for Ossama Bin Laden and the other top Al-Quida leadership, they are not tied to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other given location in the world. And in fact, there is no evidence to say
Ossama Bin Laden is in Pakistan at all.

You mean other than the fact that that's where he went when he fled Tora Bora? Or that Pakistan was the only country to recognize the Taliban, the regime that sheltered him before and after 9/11? Or that that's where the resurgent Taliban is reforming? Or that that's where Zawahiri is rumored to be? Or that the government of the country cannot or will not control those areas, which are ruled by the same type of militant sharia savages who bury their own daughters alive?

You're no right...no evidence whatsoever. He could be in Lichtenstein for all we know.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First you complain about Sharia law which started at a time when Christians were burning Christians at the stake for similar infractions. And at a time when most Christians now reject those, most Muslim Countries now have abandoned Sharia law. And most of the resurgence of Sharia law can now be blamed on the anarchy and corruption brought back by the Nato occupation of Afghanistan, and its the Taliban and not Al-Quida that is largely advancing that agenda.

As for Rumors, as Azizibad taught us, they are seldom worth anything. But Ossama Bin Laden and the top Al-Quida leadership have not survived this long by being dumb. For other hiding places, think Africa, the Stans to the North, Indonesia, the Philippians, and that is just a short list.

The difference that you NEVER seem to understand is that while almost all societies (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and so on) have moved forward the Taliban still uses midieval punishments and regard themselves as the messengers of faith in a way that only a Crusader could relate to. They have the right to burn children alive according to their own faith, they have a right to rape and torture, kill and plunder... They aren't some benevolent group of innocent Muslims fighting for "the people".

Why can't you get this? I've even given you the search terms to search for the pictures from their left camp sites, and STILL you don't get it.

Osama and his crew of happy murderers have survived this long ONLY because they have you and the likes of you on their side, you don't want us to do what needs to be done, if the Talibans burn an entire village with everyone inside it then you just shrug it off, but if we kill one of their human shields we are dispicable murderers.

 

[Lemon law]

No Captain JOS,

Its you who does not get it as you accuse me of----"Osama and his crew of happy murderers have survived this long ONLY because they have you and the likes of you on their side. "

Get real JOS, I do nothing to aid and abet Ossama and his happy crew.

The real aiders and abettor of Ossama and friends is military types like you, who are so narrow minded and out of tune with the people they occupy, that they make their enemy more and not less popular.

I totally share your goal of getting rid of both the Taliban and Al-Quida, but it never seems to dawn on you that you are fighting ideas that cannot be killed.

But ideas can be modified by proper example. And you have made negative progress in Afghanistan for almost seven years running because you are failing to address the corruption and anarchy you have brought.

And now you want to export that anarchy to the tribal areas of Pakistan where you start out way behind the eight ball because everyone there already hates Nato and all you will do is deepen that hatred without
any ability to catch any Al-Quida or Taliban. Meanwhile, all Al-Quida and the Taliban will have to do is whisper the word Nato and their recruiting will instantly be going gangbusters. And not just in the Tribal areas of Pakistan, but all over the world.

And that is why I oppose your recommended tactics while noting Gen Petraeus does not seem to think your approach will work either.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
No Captain JOS,

Its you who does not get it as you accuse me of----"Osama and his crew of happy murderers have survived this long ONLY because they have you and the likes of you on their side. "

If you had the brain capacity to understand how to quote properly or even read a full sentence you'd notice that i gave a reason for my statement "Osama and his crew of happy murderers have survived this long ONLY because they have you and the likes of you on their side, you don't want us to do what needs to be done, if the Talibans burn an entire village with everyone inside it then you just shrug it off, but if we kill one of their human shields we are dispicable murderers." is the full quote.

Get real JOS, I do nothing to aid and abet Ossama and his happy crew.

Yes, you do, you really do, read above for the explanation WHY you do.

The real aiders and abettor of Ossama and friends is military types like you, who are so narrow minded and out of tune with the people they occupy, that they make their enemy more and not less popular.

Really, last i looked at the statistics 95%+ of all asked in Afghanistan population wanted us to stay, their police and military wants us to stay and so does their government... But what do they know, right? You know better than them there citizens, right? The fact that they have it better now than they had for 30 years doesn't even fit inside your head because you really just want to hate the "occupation"

I totally share your goal of getting rid of both the Taliban and Al-Quida, but it never seems to dawn on you that you are fighting ideas that cannot be killed.

Ah, the concept of immortal ideas, how amusing that you think that tyrants and murderers ideas should not be fought because they cannot be defeated, if this was WWII you would be against fighting the ideas of the Nazis too, wouldn't you, because their ideas are extremely similar.

But ideas can be modified by proper example. And you have made negative progress in Afghanistan for almost seven years running because you are failing to address the corruption and anarchy you have brought.

And now you want to export that anarchy to the tribal areas of Pakistan where you start out way behind the eight ball because everyone there already hates Nato and all you will do is deepen that hatred without
any ability to catch any Al-Quida or Taliban. Meanwhile, all Al-Quida and the Taliban will have to do is whisper the word Nato and their recruiting will instantly be going gangbusters. And not just in the Tribal areas of Pakistan, but all over the world.

And that is why I oppose your recommended tactics while noting Gen Petraeus does not seem to think your approach will work either.

[/quote]

This is just idiotic pissing and you'll have to excuse me but i THINK i know more about it than some teenybopper sitting at home making up shit in his mind, i am not going to resond to that except for one thing, i don't have any respect for Petraeus, none what so ever.

 

[extra]

Imho, it's good that the taliban is finally getting the attention they deserve. We should have done this LONG AGO, instead we got tied down in Iraq fighting a war that never should have even got started.

The thing is that BOTH the people who perpetrate these atrocities (the taliban) AND the ideas they represent both need to be taken care of. Lemon law is right in that getting rid of the ideas of extremism is the ultimate goal, but the reality of that goal is that just because you want it to be so does not excuse people (like the taliban's) actions. It's going to take both. That is why it is so difficult. I just wish that most of the people that were in Iraq had been sent to eradicate the Taliban and rebuild Afghanistan instead. We probably wouldn't be in this position today.

I also think it's silly to think that Pakistan and U.S. intelligence officials aren't workign together, I'm sure they just play it off like they aren't but I would imagine they probably are quite close behind the scenes.. who knows, though

 

[Lemon law]

As JOS goes off the deep end by saying----" I don't have any respect for Petraeus, none what so ever."

Now, I may not be a military expert JOS, but I have a reality check for you. In any military in the world, Generals are way way way more powerful than Colonels, and they in turn are way more powerful than majors. and mere Captains are so FAR DOWN the pecking order that they have no POLICY MAKING ABILITY AT ALL.

Well I do have some respect for Petraeus, and I have some hope that he will send you, and those like thinking idiots in the Nato packing because you and your type stinking thinking are net liabilities.

And if Petraeus wants you gone, you will be gone.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: extra
Imho, it's good that the taliban is finally getting the attention they deserve. We should have done this LONG AGO, instead we got tied down in Iraq fighting a war that never should have even got started.

The thing is that BOTH the people who perpetrate these atrocities (the taliban) AND the ideas they represent both need to be taken care of. Lemon law is right in that getting rid of the ideas of extremism is the ultimate goal, but the reality of that goal is that just because you want it to be so does not excuse people (like the taliban's) actions. It's going to take both. That is why it is so difficult. I just wish that most of the people that were in Iraq had been sent to eradicate the Taliban and rebuild Afghanistan instead. We probably wouldn't be in this position today.

I also think it's silly to think that Pakistan and U.S. intelligence officials aren't workign together, I'm sure they just play it off like they aren't but I would imagine they probably are quite close behind the scenes.. who knows, though

A LOT of shit has happened in Pakistan both with the ISI partly becoming defenders of Talibans and even participating in their actions towards the civilians in the areas (not only tribal areas) and the government crumbling down like a pile of loose rocks while declaring both war on the Taliban and support for the Taliban at the same time.

I agree with you on everything else you said though, Iraq should never have happened and the forces that are there now would be of much better use here. I changed my mind about that in July for obvious reasons even though i didn't state them at the time.

We need to get rid of every last one of them and we can't do that while being concerned what the likes of Lemon Law will think about our actions.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Now, I may not be a military expert JOS

No shit?

 

[Lemon law]

Now JOS inflates my ego by saying-----------"We need to get rid of every last one of them and we can't do that while being concerned what the likes of Lemon Law will think about our actions."

Get real JOS, I may be a legend in my own mind on P&N, a nearly lone voice crying out bullshit from the wilderness, but ask any world leader, nearly any Afghan or Pakistani, military general, Taliban, Al-Quida, or the average Brit or American THE QUESTION, who is Lemon LAW and what does he advocate, and you are 99.999999% going to get WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, and never heard of him. It may be an ego shattering admission on my part, but they never heard of you either.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon lawI may be a legend in my own mind on P&N, a nearly lone voice crying out bullshit from the wilderness

I cannot disagree with that.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Lemon lawI may be a legend in my own mind on P&N, a nearly lone voice crying out bullshit from the wilderness

I cannot disagree with that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As JOS once again has a snappy comeback, that addresses about 5% of the overall question, while being 95% FOS.

But please riddle me two things Captain JOS, where the hell do you get off thinking you set Nato policy with your minuscule military rank, and what is the undisclosed military rank of palehorse?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Pakistan really needs to be more aggressive in defending their territory.

How many 9/11 hijackers were Pakistani? How many were Saudi Arabian?

Any questions?

How does that take away from the fact that Pakistan now hosts several of the most violent and destructive terrorist groups in the world?

Pakistan is exporting terrorism. That must stop one way or another. So, either they stop it, or we will. Period.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Pakistan really needs to be more aggressive in defending their territory.

How many 9/11 hijackers were Pakistani? How many were Saudi Arabian?

Any questions?

How does that take away from the fact that Pakistan now hosts several of the most violent and destructive terrorist groups in the world?

Pakistan is exporting terrorism. That must stop one way or another. So, either they stop it, or we will. Period.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Private palehorse, tell us exactly how you are so effective stopping the Taliban in Afghanistan. Seven damn years of negative Kazan continuous dis improvement.

Truly a record for you to be proud of, pardon me, maybe you need to do some serious rethinking. But cheer up, GENERAL Petraeus is already doing it for you.

I too want the magic wand to wave, poof Al-Quida and the Taliban are gone, but failing a magic wand, I sincerely believe your policies will be counter productive.

And with stupid policies like yours, you only invite total Nato failure.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ok Private palehorse, tell us exactly how you are so effective stopping the Taliban in Afghanistan. Seven damn years of negative Kazan continuous dis improvement.

Truly a record for you to be proud of, pardon me, maybe you need to do some serious rethinking. But cheer up, GENERAL Petraeus is already doing it for you.

I too want the magic wand to wave, poof Al-Quida and the Taliban are gone, but failing a magic wand, I sincerely believe your policies will be counter productive.

And with stupid policies like yours, you only invite total Nato failure.

This last message is to inform you that I will no longer be responding to you on this forum.

You're dismissed.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ok Private palehorse, tell us exactly how you are so effective stopping the Taliban in Afghanistan. Seven damn years of negative Kazan continuous dis improvement.

Truly a record for you to be proud of, pardon me, maybe you need to do some serious rethinking. But cheer up, GENERAL Petraeus is already doing it for you.

I too want the magic wand to wave, poof Al-Quida and the Taliban are gone, but failing a magic wand, I sincerely believe your policies will be counter productive.

And with stupid policies like yours, you only invite total Nato failure.

This last message is to inform you that I will no longer be responding to you on this forum.

You're dismissed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the 20'th or so Private palehorse thread informing me I am dismissed .

Its so working palehorse, your magic legend in your own mind wand will not make me go away, will not make the Taliban go away, or make Al-Quida go away.

But your three out of three denial is not working well.

At least on the battle ground of logic, I would hope you would not keep firing bullshit blanks. In a battle of wits, I am fighting an unarmed palehorse, unable to assemble any logical argument not already disproved in the arena of experience.

 

[The Green Bean]

Interesting read

Land of conspiracies
Tuesday, September 16, 2008
Ahmed Quraishi

In a recent email exchange, one of the ideological founders of the country's largest left-oriented parties said that he believed that the "core strategic objective of the US" was to "establish its control over the Pakistan Army ? to weaken it when it is strong and strengthen it when it is weak but maintain total control over it." He went on to say that the only long-term potent weapon that the Pakistan Army has is "the support of the people of Pakistan". The support General Kayani received from the people on the few words he said about not allowing foreigners to violate the territory of Pakistan is extremely significant."

This is where the defeatist stance of Pakistan's elected government on US belligerence becomes inexplicable. Gen Kayani does not need votes. Those who do need them are wasting a perfect opportunity to earn more of them. That is why Prime Minister Gilani's statement saying 'Pakistan can't wage war with US' comes as a shock. Even if true, why would the prime minister say this because it only serves to deprive Pakistan of the strategic psychological impact created by the army chief's warning.

America has been a duplicitous ally during the past seven years, using Pakistani cooperation on Afghanistan to gradually turn that country into a military base to launch a sophisticated psychological, intelligence and military campaign to destabilize Pakistan itself.

In one sign of the grand double game, despite poor relations with Iran, Washington has encouraged Karzai and the Indians to complete the construction of a road that links Afghanistan to an Indian-built Iranian seaport. The purpose is to end the dependence of both the US army and the Karzai regime on Pakistan. The recent demonization of Pakistani intelligence agencies is a pretext.

Apologists for the US position need to understand that Pakistan has a legitimate right to protect it interests in the region. Everyone does. The problem is not our intelligence agencies. It is how Washington deliberately trampled on the legitimate interests of its ally in favour of strengthening the position of our competitors. Maybe, had the Americans been as considerate to us as we have been to them, our spies wouldn't have needed to re-establish contacts with the militants. If we are doing this, it is protect our interest.

Pessimists fear that if our military tries to block US border violations, there is a possibility of armed conflict. Also, in case of conflict, Washington is expected to signal to India to open a front in the east to divert Pakistani military resources. But Pakistan is not without options. In fact, the Pakistani position is stronger than what it appears to be. Islamabad can activate old contacts with a resurgent and rising Afghan Taliban inside Afghanistan. The entire Pakistani tribal belt will seize this opportunity to fight the Americans. There is a possibility that Pakistani tribesmen could cross the border in large numbers using secret routes to dodge aerial bombardment and join the Afghan Taliban and find their way to Kabul. The misguided and suspicious 'Pakistani Taliban' ? whom the NWFP governor has described on Sept 12 as an extension of the US military in Afghanistan ? will also come under pressure of the tribesmen and will be forced to target the occupation forces instead of fighting the Pakistani government and people.

But the situation between Islamabad and Washington does not have to come to this. Islamabad can help tip the scales in Washington against the hawks who want a war with Pakistan. Not all parts of the US government accept this idea and this must be exploited. Pakistan must make it clear that it will retaliate.

US military posturing aside, Washington has recently seen a string of diplomatic defeats. Russia has cut American meddling in Georgia to size. In Iraq, a coalition of Shia parties is forcing the Americans to set a timetable for departure. And both Bolivia and Venezuela have expelled US ambassadors, and, in Bolivia's case, the world has suddenly become alert to Washington's intrusive meddling in that country's domestic politics and the role of the US ambassador in fuelling separatism. This is not very different from the US role inside Pakistan, where American diplomats have caused political chaos by directly engaging the politicians.

The only way to entrap Pakistan now is to either orchestrate a spectacular terrorist attack on the mainland US and blame it on Pakistan, or to assassinate a high profile personality inside Pakistan and generate enough domestic strife to scuttle military resistance to US attacks. It's called realpolitik.

I also think we might see another military coup very soon. The current government are a bunch of jokers destroying the country and now are threatening to sell off the country's sovereignty. If America attacks again and the government fails to stop the NATO supplies; Kayani WILL step in and take over. I would support that move. So would most educated Pakistanis. And then we can kiss democracy good bye forever. Pakistan would no longer have strong ties to America and nobody's going to listen to Bush or Obama rambling about how Pakistan needs democracy. What good did democracy do to us? It's bought us to the brink of economic collapse and brink of war.