[Nvidia] The Witcher 3: Is your system ready - Nvidia official system requirements

[Stuka87]

Do Game devs have access to Nvidia and AMD's driver source code?

Typically no. When it comes to things like TressFX or Hairworks, these are userspace libraries that the developer can use. The developer has no reason to see the driver code underneath. They make API calls using the library, and thats all that is required of them. The library itself makes the calls to the driver via DirectX/Mantle.

In the case of gameworks, the libraries are completely closed source (A dev can apparently pay extra to see some parts of the source). Devs make the calls, but never get to see inside the libraries. Same goes for AMD, they cannot see inside the library to see what is going on. Its not impossible to optimize in this case, but it is very difficult.

 

[96Firebird]

What's your point?

My point is that some people complained about the wording in the PhysX EULA, and the same wording is used in the "Radeon SDK" (which includes TressFX) EULA.

Like I said in the other thread, it is a standard software EULA. Then you went on to attack me...

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=37391204#post37391204

I guess I'm just surprised you aren't saying something like...

This thread is pointless and will lead nowhere and your point proves it because some AMD owners believe that putting proprietary closed-source code Radeon SDK extensions that can never be altered, modified or optimized by Nvidia/Intel for their GPUs is perfectly OK.

But, like I said in the other thread, they can be optimized. That is the beauty of having the PhysX and Radeon SDK's public. They should never be altered or modified, however, because the ownership still belongs to the developer.

Either way, this is off-topic for The Witcher 3 graphics. Maybe I'll start a thread and we can argue about how PhysX is bad and Radeon SDK is good...

 

[sontin]

Thats not how it works. You cannot optimize code without knowing what you are optimizing. People saying "they can optimize through the driver" obviously have zero development experience. Yes they can optimize code on the driver side, but its extremely difficult without knowing how user space is doing something.

nVidia and AMD provide developers with tools which can analyse the API calls at runtime at the same time with the ingame graphics.
They see everything because the driver is translating the high level language to the binary code of the GPU.

If you take TressFX 1.0 for example, nVidia had their driver optimized for it within two weeks because they had the source code. They didn't put any code changes into TressFX, they only changed their side. AMD cannot do this with Hairworks because they are not allowed to see the source code.

They were only able to optimize for the retail version because they got the version a few days prior the launch and not because TressFX was released a week later...

This is what nVidia is saying about having access to the source code of games:

Cebenoyan conceded that AMD is "concerned" about not having the code for Nvidia's GameWorks modules. However, he seems to believe that shouldn't hinder AMD's optimization efforts. "Historically, in all the games we've worked with, we don't typically need the source code to a game to optimize for it," he told me. "We don't typically have the source code to most games. Our driver engineers typically—actually almost never have looked game source code. So that's not really the operating model."
I asked whether, prior to the establishment of the GameWorks licensing model, AMD would have had access to the code for games with Nvidia middleware. "No, I don't think so," Cebenoyan replied. "In general, most game developers don't really give people source code, anyway."

http://techreport.com/news/26521/nvidia-responds-to-amd-gameworks-allegations

 

[Rvenger]

stop with the off topic crap about tress fx and gameworks unless it specifically has something to do with just The Witcher 3, its cluttering this thread up with the same old same old.

Mods, please delete this message if you clean the rest of the thread. Thanks.

Actually, this message is a good message. If the off topic discussion on TressFX and anything that doesn't deal with The Witcher 3 continues, I will be handing out a TON of infractions, starting from page 1.

-Rvenger

 

[DiogoDX]

First impresions on performance:

Fortunately, the performance is very good, both Radeon GPUs and GeForce graphics cards provide very good frame rates. Also pleasing: For Ultra-Details and Full HD it takes is a fleet middle-class graphics card as a GTX 770 or R9 280X.

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/The-Witcher-3-PC-237266/Specials/Technik-Test-1158845/

Seems like AMD will do fine without gameworks.

 

[RussianSensation]

First impresions on performance:


http://www.pcgameshardware.de/The-Witcher-3-PC-237266/Specials/Technik-Test-1158845/

Seems like AMD will do fine without gameworks.

Thanks for that article.

"The Witcher 3 was even liquid when the CPU under overclocked to 2.0GHz and hyperthreading has been disabled."

"The support of multi-core processors is excellent. On our computer, a i7-4790K, the load is distributed very evenly across all threads, even the logical cores are utilized properly - very nice. This exemplary use of resources allows us even to disable hyperthreading and to overclock the processor to 2GHz and still achieve exceptionally smooth frame rates with ultra details. The utilization of the remaining and additional gehandicapten calculators rockets in this scenario, to 100%. Assuming you have a reasonably current quad-core at around 3 GHz and a good middle-class GPU with 2 GiByte memory, you can look forward not only to the best looking version of The Witcher 3, but also to the most liquid after our previous findings so. Kudos, CD Projekt."

PCGameshardware:

"The Witcher 3 PC - NVIDIA Features

As already known, The Witcher 3 uses some Nvidia technologies. This includes Physx for physics calculations, presentation of clothes via Apex Cloth and partly destructible environment by Apex Destruction. However, all these effects run with both Nvidia and AMD on the CPU."

Nice so at least CDPR decided to not favour any vendor with its PhysX treatment.

"Hairworks is very demanding in our version, in particularly with an AMD graphics card."

Hairworks OFF

Hairworks ON

Per that PCHardware article, CDPR decided to use DX11 & Forward+ instead of deferred rendering:

"The ForwardPlus11 v1.1 sample provides an example implementation of the Forward+ algorithm, which extends traditional forward rendering to support high numbers of dynamic lights while maintaining performance. It utilizes a Direct3D 11 compute shader (DirectCompute 5.0) to divide the screen into tiles and quickly cull lights against those tiles, resulting in per-tile light lists for the forward pixel shader. A forward renderer maintains universal hardware MSAA support and proper alpha blending support."

Then you went on to attack me...

I think you have a different definition of the word "attack me" because I didn't say anything negative about you in my reply. Back to TW3 discussion.

 

[Azix]

Can we just friggin sue nvidia already?

I cant understand why any of these devs go with gameworks. Runs crap on nvidia hardware, runs doubly crap on AMD and AMD can't do jack about it.

Imagine if this was an AMD game. Everybody would be happy. Tressfx 2.0 or 3.0 etc etc. I am livid.. . moderately.

The question is not if they will do fine without gameworks. Its not ok. If gameworks features are replacing graphical effects one would expect from typical game at ultra etc. THAT IS BAD. That means we miss out on high end PC features and are playing a console version. If its just hairworks and not anything else that is locked to it maybe but I would rather they had used tressfx.

As already known, The Witcher 3 uses some Nvidia technologies. This includes Physx for physics calculations, presentation of clothes via Apex Cloth and partly destructible environment by Apex Destruction. However, all these effects run with both Nvidia and AMD on the CPU. To be joined by two Physx effects of GameWorks library name HBAO + and Hairworks. While HBAO + leistungsstechnisch is fairly unobtrusive, and also AMD GPUs can represent both liquid with Nvidia as, Hairworks is very demanding in our version, in particularly with an AMD graphics card.

so we might lose physics, cloth animations etc. if we want good performance. I am still waiting on the benchmarks before I blow a gasket but.... That stuff sounds like what was in project cars

 

[jpiniero]

I cant understand why any of these devs go with gameworks. Runs crap on nvidia hardware, runs doubly crap on AMD and AMD can't do jack about it.

Saves them time/resources. The main focus of developers these days is the consoles; they are likely spending the absolute minimum to get it running on PC.

 

[96Firebird]

so we might lose physics, cloth animations etc. if we want good performance. I am still waiting on the benchmarks before I blow a gasket but.... That stuff sounds like what was in project cars

If this is the case, AMD better work on optimizing for PhysX. They can get the source from GitHub and work on optimizing, whenever they feel like it (well, since March at least).

 

[Azix]

If this is the case, AMD better work on optimizing for PhysX. They can get the source from GitHub and work on optimizing, whenever they feel like it (well, since March at least).

That github is the CPU physx. Though maybe they could build something to force it to work on GPU. Some kind of hack.

Normally though, thats CPU and amd GPU drivers don't touch that. Which is why nvidia released it. That evil company is very unlikely to release anything that would benefit gaming overall. It's not a company of gamers. I bet the CEO only plays angry birds.

Punk probably has 10 titans sitting at home being used for minecraft.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

If this is the case, AMD better work on optimizing for PhysX. They can get the source from GitHub and work on optimizing, whenever they feel like it (well, since March at least).

In the witcher 3 physX always runs on the cpu, both on amd and nvidia systems.

The only thing that'll make a real difference in performance between nvidia and amd is hairworks. I don't get the drama, just turn hairworks off if you have an amd gpu.

 

[RussianSensation]

so we might lose physics, cloth animations etc. if we want good performance. I am still waiting on the benchmarks before I blow a gasket but.... That stuff sounds like what was in project cars

If you read carefully, PhysX is vendor agnostic in this title. HBAO+ works on AMD cards, while PhysX runs strictly on the CPU for all versions, with no favouritism for PhysX given to NV cards. HBAO+ and Hairworks (esp.) will likely run faster on NV cards. Hairworks in TW3 is closed source and thus can't be optimized by the developer for AMD GPUs, as already confirmed by TW3 developer.

If this is the case, AMD better work on optimizing for PhysX. They can get the source from GitHub and work on optimizing, whenever they feel like it (well, since March at least).

You seem to be confusing PhysX CPU calculation optimizations with another title where PhysX is offloaded to the GPU for 1 vendor. Per PCGameshware, both R9 280X and 770 can run the game on Ultra (without Hairworks) at 1080P.

PCgames even downclocked a Core i7 to 2Ghz, disabled HT, and the game still ran smoothly. It's all there in the article. That means PhysX is very lightly used in this game if a hypothetical 2Ghz Core i5 isn't a large bottleneck.

 

[96Firebird]

That github is the CPU physx.

The Witcher 3 uses CPU PhysX, as Flapdrol said.

 

[Azix]

If you read carefully, HBAO+ and PhysX are vendor agnostic in this title. HBAO+ works on AMD cards, while PhysX runs strictly on the CPU for all versions, with no favouritism.

That is the claim about physx for project cars as well. Let's hope that is how it is. It's hard to imagine why nvidia would not use the GPU when they know their CPU code is crap.

Being platform agnostic doesn't mean its not going to be running better on nvidia hardware, but I don't really care about things like that as long as an alternative setting is there.

If there is a non-gameworks option for things like HBAO+ then its w.e. My biggest issue is hairworks if that is the case. Because proper fur and hair is long overdue in video games. Again though, if the alternative still has decent animation then I'm fine, because hairworks really doesn't look much better than good animated fur and hair anyway.

I was hoping to max the game completely. So that gets to me. I want to see what we get with ultra and what we lose.

Still would want nvidia to burn for touching witcher 3 though. This one was supposed to be untainted by their evil.

 

[Azix]

PCgames even downclocked a Core i7 to 2Ghz, disabled HT, and the game still ran smoothly. It's all there in the article. That means PhysX is very lightly used in this game if a hypothetical 2Ghz Core i5 isn't a large bottleneck.

Yeah that's what I am realizing. Its likely not a project cars type thing that would cripple a CPU. It can't be worse than borderlands and I ran physx fine on the CPU in that.

As for hairworks, fingers crossed for AMD, because I am turning that on. Until tressfx improves and becomes the standard, sacrifices have to be made.

 

[RussianSensation]

That is the claim about physx for project cars as well. Let's hope that is how it is. It's hard to imagine why nvidia would not use the GPU when they know their CPU code is crap.

SMS implied and stated that PhysX is being offloaded to the CPU for AMD cards but he mentioned no such thing about NV cards, implying certain parts of PhysX run on NV cards. This isn't the case for TW3.

Being platform agnostic doesn't mean its not going to be running better on nvidia hardware, but I don't really care about things like that as long as an alternative setting is there.

Well no doubt NV cards will run TW3 game better with GW's features on. What did you expect?

If there is a non-gameworks option for things like HBAO+ then its w.e.

As far as I know there is no alternative to HBAO+ in this title. Luckily, HBAO+ seems to run well on both AMD and NV hardware.

My biggest issue is hairworks if that is the case. Because proper fur and hair is long overdue in video games. Again though, if the alternative still has decent animation then I'm fine, because hairworks really doesn't look much better than good animated fur and hair anyway.

There is no alternative to Hairworks in this title. It's either none, or Hairworks by NV.

Hair simulation by itself is highly GPU intensive (imagine simulating 50000 human hairs, what about the hairs on a bear/wolf?!). Modern GPUs will all take a big performance hit with either TressFX 1.0/2.0 or Hairworks. Obviously since Hairworks is closed source, performance on AMD cards can't be fixed without more powerful AMD hardware, while in contrast at least NV could optimize for TressFX over time. That's the big difference.

The bigger dissapointment is that TW3 won't be the next Crysis 1/3 moment for PC gaming, but it's basically an amazing game, with great story twists, made primarily for consoles and has GW features (plus all the other benefits of PC gaming like controls, higher resolution, higher performance/fps, etc.).

CDPR said 250 people worked on the game and honestly I'd rather them focus on the gameplay and single player campaign than trying to make an open world game the world's best looking game but gameplay falls flat. At least they had their priorities straight!

 

[Azix]

By alternative to hairworks I mean simple animation. I am not worried about his hair though. The console versions have good hair movement. Just need to see some animals.

The game looks really good on consoles

Spoiler

http://www.twitch.tv/swiftor

Less worried. Though now I am slightly worried about my CPU seeming inadequate. If they port this to dx12 in anyway that will be really great. Hopefully before the expansion next year

 

[boozzer]

same experience across all 3 platforms = limited by the crap ass console that is xbone. ps4 isn't much better either

I hope this game gets popular enough where fans would create higher quality texture/lighting/grass mods for it.

 

[monstercameron]

SMS implied and stated that PhysX is being offloaded to the CPU for AMD cards but he mentioned no such thing about NV cards, implying certain parts of PhysX run on NV cards. This isn't the case for TW3.







Well no doubt NV cards will run TW3 game better with GW's features on. What did you expect?







As far as I know there is no alternative to HBAO+ in this title. Luckily, HBAO+ seems to run well on both AMD and NV hardware.







There is no alternative to Hairworks in this title. It's either none, or Hairworks by NV.



Hair simulation by itself is highly GPU intensive (imagine simulating 50000 human hairs, what about the hairs on a bear/wolf?!). Modern GPUs will all take a big performance hit with either TressFX 1.0/2.0 or Hairworks. Obviously since Hairworks is closed source, performance on AMD cards can't be fixed without more powerful AMD hardware, while in contrast at least NV could optimize for TressFX over time. That's the big difference.



The bigger dissapointment is that TW3 won't be the next Crysis 1/3 moment for PC gaming, but it's basically an amazing game, with great story twists, made primarily for consoles and has GW features (plus all the other benefits of PC gaming like controls, higher resolution, higher performance/fps, etc.).



CDPR said 250 people worked on the game and honestly I'd rather them focus on the gameplay and single player campaign than trying to make an open world game the world's best looking game but gameplay falls flat. At least they had their priorities straight!

Yeah but all they had to do was take the fighting engine from tw2 and spruce it up, shouldn't be hard to focus on graphics after the copy pasted it to tw3.

Another note, isn't forward+ the technique used by code masters dirt 3 that gave amd an edge?

Also are the devs saying core scaling ends at about 4 cores or was the just a random test done with an i5?

 

[Azix]

Yeah but all they had to do was take the fighting engine from tw2 and spruce it up, shouldn't be hard to focus on graphics after the copy pasted it to tw3.

Another note, isn't forward+ the technique used by code masters dirt 3 that gave amd an edge?

Also are the devs saying core scaling ends at about 4 cores or was the just a random test done with an i5?

There's a lot more to the game than that. Witcher 2 was not open world, massive change there. And this world is bigger than any I've heard of in a game. Beats skyrim, gta etc.

 

[Red Hawk]

The bit about the developers themselves being unable to optimize for AMD (and, by singling out AMD, implying that they can optimize for Nvidia) is pretty revealing. Fie on both Nvidia and CDProjekt Red for going with this anti-competitive nonsense.

 

[Erenhardt]

The bit about the developers themselves being unable to optimize for AMD (and, by singling out AMD, implying that they can optimize for Nvidia) is pretty revealing. Fie on both Nvidia and CDProjekt Red for going with this anti-competitive nonsense.

Yea. If you think that pissing in my pot will make me gonna love you, you are wrong nvidia.

 

[RussianSensation]

Yeah but all they had to do was take the fighting engine from tw2 and spruce it up, shouldn't be hard to focus on graphics after the copy pasted it to tw3.

Another note, isn't forward+ the technique used by code masters dirt 3 that gave amd an edge?

Also are the devs saying core scaling ends at about 4 cores or was the just a random test done with an i5?

That was only an artificial advantage during the game's launch. Once the developer and AMD shared all of the source code, all it took is a driver for NV to fix DirectCompute performance in Dirt Showdown. If AMD blocked access to their DirectCompute code/library from NV in Dirt games forever, that would be like GameWorks (ie, Hairworks in TW3). Basically AMD's GE is like the old TWIMTPB, but GW is like Intel paying developers for compilers to favor Intel CPUs. That's why Hairworks will most likely result in a massive performance hit on AMD cards until 300, 400, 500 series just get faster to overcome the performance hit.

It's telling how intensive hair simulation in general is though because both TressFX and Hairworks are highly intensive. Seems we are hitting a point in PC gaming where all next generation features like global illumination, real time reflections, advanced particles, destructive physics are way too advanced for today's CPU/GPU hardware. Probably will take until 2019/2020 with PS5 gen before we start seeing them in a mainstream AAA game like TW3.

 

[3DVagabond]

The game has been stripped bare out of a need to optimize according to the devs, others are calling it downgraded. Another example is the promised tessellated water has been removed for scripted effects: http://gfycat.com/ComfortableEvergreenDiscus

Ambient occlusion was also disabled for vegetation/grass etc. to improve performance. The game went from an expected graphics powerhouse to a cross-platform XBONE/PS4/PC game that has a few extra sliders added on PC that apparently require TitanX SLI/980 SLI to even run

You can't blame them, the game would of put them out of business had it been PC only, but it's a shame that there is nothing special there on the visual front. I've been finishing off DA:I this week and it looks better than the PC gameplay videos for Witcher 3 I've seen.

Groove, with your system would you mind running it maxed out and let us know what your avg. FPS is? Cheers!

 

[Silverforce11]

@RS

We will gain a lot with Mantle's DX12 Asynchronous Compute, where rendering won't be bottlenecked by compute functions such as lighting, reflections, particles, destruction, hair, etc. It will run in parallel and even utilize the same shaders.

Currently with DX11, its a one-lane street for all rendering & compute traffic and that's why these DX11 compute features cripple performance.

Also, for Witcher 3, they did downgrade it, but the question is why not include an optional download for PC users, ala Shadow of Mordor's 4K texture pack. All they need are sliders + ultra texture options and boom, game is back to PC quality that absolutely crushes current GPUs.