nVidia blocks Hardware Unboxed due to rasterization focus. Update: nVidia retracts.

[BFG10K]

Full letter

Spoiler

LTT coverage

My thoughts

I think this is wrong and to be completely fair, I called out this behavior when AMD played similar shenanigans with TPU and Tech Report.

As for the "gamers" comment above, as of right now I don't give a crap about ray tracing, and even less of a crap about DLSS. I own a 2060 Super and never use any of those features by choice, for various reasons. Perhaps in 3-5 years with 2-3 new generations of cards, my opinion might change.

Rasterization is by far the most important feature for me, and I'm not a minority by any stretch of the imagination:

Spoiler

Update: nVidia now retracted

https://twitter.com/x/status/1337885741389471745

I'm not surprised they retracted but I expected it to take longer along with a "it was an internal draft that was never supposed to be released", or similar.

 

[chimaxi83]

The downvotes of my comments from a person who opened their account here in 2020

Did you forget to log in to your real account with an earlier join date before posting this?

 

[Martimus]

This is completely insane. Luckily they don't have a monopoly, and there is some pretty good competition. I will have a difficult time buying an Nvidia product after this.

 

[CP5670]

It's a ridiculous response from Nvidia, and hurts their own image more than anything else. The "Director of Global PR" is probably some mid-level bureaucrat who might be axed by JHH now.

That being said, I will buy whatever product best suits my needs and ignore any PR nonsense. Nvidia's behavior is more stupid than evil, and as said earlier AMD has done this type of thing in the past too. They all want to maximize their profits at the end of the day.

 

[UsandThem]

So many "reviews" anymore, across multiple hardware review sites, have simply become an ad thinly discussed as an "article". It's like they don't even try to hide that aspect, as I believe the younger readers can't tell the difference since all the other major websites do some form of it.

Just take a look at all the "best of" and "lowest price ever" posts at places like Tom's, Anandtech, etc. It's all about money from referral links and the manufacturers, so I'm not all surprised Nvidia took this stand. That doesn't mean I like the direction everything is going, it's just something I've noticed since corporations began buying all the hardware review sites.

 

[CakeMonster]

I don't like internet drama, and I tend to stay away from the 'flashier' and gimmicky YT channels. This turned out well but it is a bit worrying that a solid and serious channel like HWUB seemingly needed shoutouts and engagement from the less so (but bigger) ones to get out of this kind of trouble.

 

[Mopetar]

Really, we have somehow verified, multiple times that paid NVidia employees/contractors were posting here?

I'd be curious to see that evidence.

There have been a few cases (many of that quite old) where this was the case. Rollo was probably the most infamous that I can remember, but that was way back when I was just lurking here. In his case he did have a business relationship with Nvidia and I believe that they specifically asked the forum staff to unban him at one point.

It wasn't completely unusual for companies to have PR people that would post on these forums, but a lot of them were more open regarding their employment with a company or that they were a part of the marketing team. This was back when forums generally had a much bigger reach and with the rise of popularity of YouTube a lot more of the effort towards any kind of astroturfing or native advertising has gone into those platforms.

Go read up about the old AEG / Nvidia fiasco which caused quite a stir on many different forums back in the day. The AT forums weren't the only place where it was happening either.

 

[sandorski]

I'm not just arguing over the definition of words. The claim was NVidia hired multiple people to make accounts HERE, and post FUD. That is a rather specific claim.

So far there is ZERO evidence of that.

I think it a LOT more likely that in the VAST majority of cases, it's just, as in the latest instance, an overzealous fan.

People these days see conspiracies everywhere, when there are more simple and likely explanations.

I was here, it happened. People knew something was happening quite some time before it was exposed. As I recall, some other website did a story on Nvidia directly or on the Marketing technique being used by multiple companies. Those here who were part of the program either got banned or had to include a line in their signature disclosing their affiliation with the program. It was a tumultuous time, more so than now anyway, on the Video forums here.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I thought I liked RT more than I actually did. After watching the A/B/C tests where you don't know which has RT enabled, I was not always sure which had the eye candy. The performance hit is not even close to being worth it.

 

[coercitiv]

What about free choice of whom to send a free card to?

The choice of sending them free cards is not the problem. The message attached to this choice was the problem: change your editorial stance and you get free cards back.

Nvidia should be allowed to start/stop sending free cards to anyone they wish. They should not be allowed to barter free cards for favorable reviews.

 

[coercitiv]

I do not recall anyone roasting AMD FX CPUs or Vega, harder than benchmark Steve did.

Or Steve being extremely vocal against AMD for their pricing strategy for the 6000 series, to the point of calling out AMD for bait and switch tactics. But we leave these out, because they don't reflect well with this constructed image of pro-AMD reviewer.

Probably the most hate-love relationship he has is with MSI: for someone who actively promotes their products he hammered them relentlessly for bad VRM designs on some fairly recent boards, and did not stop reminding MSI of the mess even after they launched better designs in response. HUB were also among the first to defend a less known reviewer against MSI for the exact same shenanigans we saw with Nvidia (MSI rep pressuring low profile reviewer to drop or change content in a review). Again, we push these aside since they don't fit the narrative.

 

[Justinus]

You failed to understand what i meant, i am not going to spend time reiterating my points to people who simplify and use comparatives to understand my point, you either can't comprehend what i say, or just want black and white thinking only. I don't think some posters here even intend to understand anything, just mirror and force one view, followers and sheep.

Good luck finding my alt account or whatever you intend to project on me, your defence is laughable that you automatically move to this.

The current belief, we must burn them at the stake if it goes against our religion!

You're new around here, so I'll put it plainly.

Multiple times in the past we have had people from or hired by Nvidia make accounts here to pretend to be normal users and post FUD.

If you want to be taken seriously with your brand new account, do your best to not look like one of them.

 

[Justinus]

I think it's clear a lot of us have a very long history and memory here. Anytime a company that has blatantly wronged the market or us in the past does it again, we will be on the lookout for signs of it here.

A brand new account with a seed thread asking explicitly only for nvidia recommendations then immediately throwing shade onto nvidias chief competitor (in a thread that has literally nothing to do with them) and proceeding to defend what is close to universally panned as an indefensible action by nvidia - only days after the action - is going to be suspected as a puppet.

This isn't even beginning to touch on the several other blatant transgressions others have already spoken about.

 

[BFG10K]

But I was able to find the Keysplayer thread, and it looks like you are misrepresenting the situation somewhat.

A known nVidia shill was a moderator here, received compensatory gifts from nVidia, exerted power over other posters, and the people who ran AT sanctioned it.

All total facts.

Bottom line, I think this issue has been painted in a much more nefarious light, than the evidence indicates.

You seriously don't have a clue. Some of us were here long before it was exposed and saw it unfolding first-hand. nTrollo was shilling all the way back to the 5800U in 2003, and his alt JethroBodine was registered on at least one other forum back in 2002. Only a calculating and coordinated shill does that.

I was also a mid-level mod at the time, so I had access to a lot of information you'll never see.

Seriously, you're going to piss off a lot of people who actually know what they're talking about. It's like an armchair history college grad trying to tell a war veteran "well, it actually didn't happen the way you think it did".

 

[Stuka87]

No, a moderator here, joined a focus group. That doesn't make him a shill.

I would bet the majority of people on forums would accept free hardware in exchange for providing feedback.

Doing so doesn't make someone a shill.

Practically all reviewers outside of Consumer Reports, accept company freebies in one form or another.

That doesn't mean all reviewers are shills.

nVidia Focus Group members were all shills. It was literally their job.

shill - Noun
An accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

This is EXACTLY what the focus group members did. We have three accounts here currently that act this exact same way. And despite reporting them, nothing has happened.

 

[Paratus]

That claim is 100% true. You can use this to conduct your own research: https://consumerist.com/2006/02/08/nvidia-focus-group-member-details-hidden-program/

The hidden nVidia viral program - partnered with AEG - seeded multiple tech forums with shills using alt accounts. nVidia provided them gifts "evaluation equipment" of high-end video cards, 30" monitors, nForce motherboards, and 3DVision gear as compensation. These little dancing orifice puppets kept their affiliation hidden until finally exposed.

There were at least four here including Rollo and Keysplayer (who joined after it was exposed). Rollo used to post under multiple handles at multiple forums using alts like JethroBodine and FallenAngel. Also another member (Wreckage) openly admitted posting anti-AMD sentiment purposefully to wind people up and to try to get into the program.

nTrollo was particularly slime-scum because he got numerous people banned for "witch-hunts" before we found out the accusations were true. He also repeatedly threatened AT with "freedom of speech" lawsuits and that he had access to unlimited ISPs to re-register.

The most interesting part is that nTrollo was dumb as a brick when it came to graphic cards, and he didn't even understand what he was actually testing or any of the tech. So clearly the program wasn't looking for competence as joining criteria.

And while I can't prove it directly, to this day I suspect the very highest echelons of AT such as Derek Wilson and Anand were in on it, as there was no real backlash, just a temp ban for nTrollo. I'll bet nVidia either provided AT compensation or strong-armed them somehow.

I mean nTrollo was allowed back in to do more even damage after exposed, and Keysplayer was given moderation powers. Who the hell voluntarily allows their own private commercial forum to be moderated by a sock puppet from a tech company that has a competing forum?

I’ll confirm everything you said. Rollo was trolling the entire forums for years before being outed banned and then reinstated.

Keysplayr was also very pro-NV, who then admitted to being part of the NV focus group then became a Mod. I too never understood that decision.

(Actually thinking back I’m getting strong LOTR vibes. I was there 3000 (well 15) years ago when the strength of men (mods) failed. Throw it into the fire! - Ban the guerilla marketers! No!)


AMD ostensibly pulled something similar to a lesser degree as I remember some former posters like @apoppin getting disgusted with the whole thing and leaving to start their own sites. (Which you helped contribute content to if I remember correctly)

For those who want to read up here’s one of the major threads

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...-with-aeg-exposed-updated-poll-added.1804008/

 

[maddogmcgee]

Well this is unwarranted but you can't deny that they are among the most pro-AMD reviewers out there. It is factually true that they never focus much on RT or DLSS - when they do show benchmarks of RT to compare against AMD, they chose the worst implementation of it by showing Dirt 5 and Shadow of the Tomb Raider. They have the lowest gap between the 3060 Ti and 5700 XT among most of the reviews and they were constantly trying to undersell the 3060 Ti by stating that it's not enough of a performance uplift over the 5700 XT.

I mean, it's hard to disagree with the fact that rasterization is way more important than RT at the moment.

 

[coercitiv]

It's one thing to say that rasterization is more important but it's something else to dismiss raytracing altogether.

Look at HUB dismissing raytracing altogether:

Try again? Yes/No.

 

[senseamp]

If a reviewer thinks a feature not important, fine, but why would a manufacturer who thinks that that feature is the main selling point of the product send it to them for free? Lexus is not going to send their luxury cars to a reviewer that makes it clear that it only cares about how fast it is around Nurburgring and repeatedly pans ride comfort as unimportant. If your editorial policy is to deemphasize features that a manufacturer is emphasizing, you are just not the target audience.

 

[UsandThem]

I'd just like to point out that a good deal of the new member's anger originated with being downvoted. This isn't an answerable thread so it really strikes again as being a feature that creates discord.

If a downvote from a stranger bothers someone that badly, they really shouldn't be posting on the internet to begin with.

And to be fair, despite joining earlier in the day, they were throwing out a lot "I know better than you" comments, and calling out other new members.

 

[ozzy702]

That was such a fantastic video. Never seen Linus that fired up and he was spot on. NVIDIA is on the ropes and this was a damage control attempt that backfired on them spectacularly.

 

[Schmide]

Strong arm tactics when you're looking for regulatory approval of ARM.

 

[richierich1212]

I just watched 40 minutes of that LTT video and he’s spot on. I agree with Linus 100%.
F Nvidia. It’s too bad they’re practically a monopoly at this point in time. But I don’t like the precedent that has been set.

AMD can’t get enough wafers for their GPUs which means less in the hands of actual consumers.

I have a 144Hz 1080P monitor so a higher frame rate with the best visual quality is more important. Ray Tracing cripples the current GPUs more than I like. Maybe the 4000-series GeForce cards will provide fast RT performance at high FPS.

 

[RasCas99]

I expect an apology coming Monday morning , this is an American company , they rarely likes this kind of attention , what i find so puzzling is the "why" , why do you care about a 500K youtube channel , mind the fact they actually said GOOD things about the 3000 cards , are Nvidia that desperate to have an even MORE positive reviews ? disgusting and needless , what a PR nightmare for them , lowest ROI move ive seen lately in the PR world.,.... what a mess.
There is no way Jensen doesnt go berserk when he gets the briefing on whats going on , not because i believe he approves or not the end result of baring HUB from reviewing (beyond the point) , but because the wording is SO bad , and it comes officially from Nvidia , just dont give HUB cards the next go around , no need to explain , no need to discuss , nothing , but they HAD to write a mafia mail .....

 

[Guru]

What the actual F? Did Nvidia official, head of PR as they mention actually write that? It looks like a 15yo high schooler wrote it, because they had a sissy fit at the time!

Heads should roll at Nvidia, that guy and people related to this should be fired immediately, if Jensen doesn't fire these people, then he might as well be the one who wrote the email!

And they are seeking approval for the purchase of ARM and that they won't do any monopolistic bullshit like this! OMG!