nVidia blocks Hardware Unboxed due to rasterization focus. Update: nVidia retracts.

[BFG10K]

Full letter

Spoiler

LTT coverage

My thoughts

I think this is wrong and to be completely fair, I called out this behavior when AMD played similar shenanigans with TPU and Tech Report.

As for the "gamers" comment above, as of right now I don't give a crap about ray tracing, and even less of a crap about DLSS. I own a 2060 Super and never use any of those features by choice, for various reasons. Perhaps in 3-5 years with 2-3 new generations of cards, my opinion might change.

Rasterization is by far the most important feature for me, and I'm not a minority by any stretch of the imagination:

Spoiler

Update: nVidia now retracted

https://twitter.com/x/status/1337885741389471745

I'm not surprised they retracted but I expected it to take longer along with a "it was an internal draft that was never supposed to be released", or similar.

 

[linkgoron]

Not to derail the thread even more, but Rollo was not a mod. He did try to become one though. I believe he kept repeating that he should be a mod because he's "fair and balanced". Also got other users banned when they called him out as a shill (before it was official that he really was one).

 

[ModEl4]

Nvidia's email seems very unprofessional, sadly there are skills that someone must possess in high profile positions in large multinational companies, that are no present here. On the other hand, I certainly feel when watching Steve's videos that he's right up there on the edge of what can't be perceived as antiNvidia attitude (just like Ian's here in Anandtech regarding Intel...) Forget for a moment the email which is indeed a disaster, why would anyone think that Nvidia is obligated to send to Hardware Unboxed samples, this is a marketing exercise, Hardware Unboxed has gathered a YouTube audience, companies like Nvidia send to them free samples and support them in general with prerelease drivers, product info/marketing materials etc in order to access this particular audience and HU gets the hits and YouTube compensation through advertisement etc. For some reason Nvidia thinks that sending samples to Hardware Unboxed is doing more harm than good to their brand, which is what vibe I get from HU videos regarding Nvidia. In any case a wise response to a situation like that is not to cut them from samples anyway.
Due to the disastrous email and the way Nvidia handled the whole situation, which was very amateur at least, now the only road is to retract...

 

[gdansk]

I'd just like to point out that a good deal of the new member's anger originated with being downvoted. This isn't an answerable thread so it really strikes again as being a feature that creates discord.

 

[UsandThem]

I'd just like to point out that a good deal of the new member's anger originated with being downvoted. This isn't an answerable thread so it really strikes again as being a feature that creates discord.

If a downvote from a stranger bothers someone that badly, they really shouldn't be posting on the internet to begin with.

And to be fair, despite joining earlier in the day, they were throwing out a lot "I know better than you" comments, and calling out other new members.

 

[Leeea]

I'd just like to point out that a good deal of the new member's anger originated with being downvoted. This isn't an answerable thread so it really strikes again as being a feature that creates discord.

To be fair, said poster claimed to be a very old poster. It very much appears that said poster was swapping accounts to upvote/downvote and was caught doing it.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

I think it's clear a lot of us have a very long history and memory here. Anytime a company that has blatantly wronged the market or us in the past does it again, we will be on the lookout for signs of it here.

A brand new account with a seed thread asking explicitly only for nvidia recommendations then immediately throwing shade onto nvidias chief competitor (in a thread that has literally nothing to do with them) and proceeding to defend what is close to universally panned as an indefensible action by nvidia - only days after the action - is going to be suspected as a puppet.

This isn't even beginning to touch on the several other blatant transgressions others have already spoken about.

 

[AtenRa]

Keysplayer?

Yeap, this one was a mod and NVIDIA focus group member

 

[BFG10K]

The claim was NVidia hired multiple people to make accounts HERE, and post FUD.

That claim is 100% true. You can use this to conduct your own research: https://consumerist.com/2006/02/08/nvidia-focus-group-member-details-hidden-program/

The hidden nVidia viral program - partnered with AEG - seeded multiple tech forums with shills using alt accounts. nVidia provided them gifts "evaluation equipment" of high-end video cards, 30" monitors, nForce motherboards, and 3DVision gear as compensation. These little dancing orifice puppets kept their affiliation hidden until finally exposed.

There were at least four here including Rollo and Keysplayer (who joined after it was exposed). Rollo used to post under multiple handles at multiple forums using alts like JethroBodine and FallenAngel. Also another member (Wreckage) openly admitted posting anti-AMD sentiment purposefully to wind people up and to try to get into the program.

nTrollo was particularly slime-scum because he got numerous people banned for "witch-hunts" before we found out the accusations were true. He also repeatedly threatened AT with "freedom of speech" lawsuits and that he had access to unlimited ISPs to re-register.

The most interesting part is that nTrollo was dumb as a brick when it came to graphic cards, and he didn't even understand what he was actually testing or any of the tech. So clearly the program wasn't looking for competence as joining criteria.

And while I can't prove it directly, to this day I suspect the very highest echelons of AT such as Derek Wilson and Anand were in on it, as there was no real backlash, just a temp ban for nTrollo. I'll bet nVidia either provided AT compensation or strong-armed them somehow.

I mean nTrollo was allowed back in to do more even damage after exposed, and Keysplayer was given moderation powers. Who the hell voluntarily allows their own private commercial forum to be moderated by a sock puppet from a tech company that has a competing forum?

 

[KompuKare]

I hope everyone learn that sending out angry email is usually not the smart thing to do. Before hitting send, walk away think about it and see if there's a better way to handle this. Giving Steve a personal call and talk about the situation would probably have avoided this whole thing. Same could be said about HWUB, why not call up the PR idiot and explain to him how dumb that email was? Posting that email was also not very professional too. All professional relationship will eventually end (let's not kid ourselves if you don't think these reviewers and the manufactures are not in a professional relationship), when that happens I don't think it's right for either party to air that in public especially if it can be embarrassing for one of the party. HWUB might have won this battle, but if I was a business partner of theirs I wouldn't like how that was handled too. The years of relationships between the parties should have been enough for both sides to pick up a phone and have a person to person talk.

I think you are totally missing what Nvidia tried to do here, what their objectives were and why HWUB had to respond the way they did:
This wasn't just about HWUB and the aim was probably for this to at least become a rumour around various youtube and smaller reviewers, because I feel that Nvidia wasn't just concerned with settings HWUB's narrative but of the whole review industry or at least all the smaller players.
And if HWUB had reached out the PR bully they might have been able to get 'unbanned' but the thread would have hung over everyone.
Making the whole thing public was 100% the correct and professional thing to do.

 

[UsandThem]

I think you are totally missing what Nvidia tried to do here, what their objectives were and why HWUB had to respond the way they did:
This wasn't just about HWUB and the aim was probably for this to at least become a rumour around various youtube and smaller reviewers, because I feel that Nvidia wasn't just concerned with settings HWUB's narrative but of the whole review industry or at least all the smaller players.
And if HWUB had reached out the PR bully they might have been able to get 'unbanned' but the thread would have hung over everyone.
Making the whole thing public was 100% the correct and professional thing to do.

Yeah, this was a pretty bad decision on Nvidia's part to do this. I'm sure all the computer enthusiasts out on all the forums will talk about it and criticize Nvidia for their actions. I thought the whole .5 GB of slow RAM on their 900 series was really overblown, but I think they deserve the bad press concerning the letter they sent to Hardware Unboxed.

Then the same people criticizing Nvidia will also continue to buy every single Nvidia GPU they can get their hands on. The bad behavior that happened with Intel and Microsoft back in the day was a PR nightmare for a bit, and outside of some small fines, we all still bought their products. Same story with even the RAM manufacturers who got caught fixing RAM pricing. Small fine compared to their size of their companies, and we all buy our RAM and other products from companies Samsung, Hynix, and Crucial.

As tech consumers, I think we generally have good memories of the bad behavior, but we can't wean ourselves off of good products from bad players.

 

[maddogmcgee]

 

[AtenRa]

well said.

 

[Leeea]

I have to give nvidia complements for an extraordinarily successful viral marketing press release. At this point I think we have all heard it more then once.

As the saying goes, no press is bad press.

---------------

I was on the hype train earlier for the rx 6000, then I jumped on the hype train for the 3080, but now, maybe I will just wait for RDNA3 next fall. I want ray tracing, but between the vram issue and this, I think I can wait.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I mean nTrollo was allowed back in to do more even damage after exposed, and Keysplayer was given moderation powers. Who the hell voluntarily allows their own private commercial forum to be moderated by a sock puppet from a tech company that has a competing forum?

I have been doing research on this topic here since it came up, but early threads I found that referenced other threads were dead links, as the reference system probably changed, so that made it difficult.

But I was able to find the Keysplayer thread, and it looks like you are misrepresenting the situation somewhat.

From what I have been reading. He was a member here for years prior, and already a Moderator, when he joined the NVidia focus group after getting an OK, from the powers that be:

I have joined Nvidia's Focus Group.

Think before you post. That's all I'm saying. :D

forums.anandtech.com

So not only is the timing backwards, but clearly is not NVidia paying people to join forums as this was originally stated. It's soliciting feedback from members already on forums.

I haven't finished reading that thread yet, but it doesn't look there was any kind of quid-pro-quo that he market NVidia products, instead it was more flowing information in the other direction.

Rollo it seems was in the same/similar program. It seems he made a jerk of himself and didn't initially reveal affiliation. It seems like they chose an overzealous fan, which really is a bad choice. As I said earlier in the thread. Overzealous fans often (always?) do more harm than good. I figure Rollo would have been doing the same thing with or without a focus group affiliation.

If companies are looking for Focus group participants on forums, it seems likely that they might choose from those who express a positive to at minimum neutral view of their brand. But they should also avoid the overzealous fan, as those are often toxic...

Bottom line, I think this issue has been painted in a much more nefarious light, than the evidence indicates.

 

[BFG10K]

But I was able to find the Keysplayer thread, and it looks like you are misrepresenting the situation somewhat.

A known nVidia shill was a moderator here, received compensatory gifts from nVidia, exerted power over other posters, and the people who ran AT sanctioned it.

All total facts.

Bottom line, I think this issue has been painted in a much more nefarious light, than the evidence indicates.

You seriously don't have a clue. Some of us were here long before it was exposed and saw it unfolding first-hand. nTrollo was shilling all the way back to the 5800U in 2003, and his alt JethroBodine was registered on at least one other forum back in 2002. Only a calculating and coordinated shill does that.

I was also a mid-level mod at the time, so I had access to a lot of information you'll never see.

Seriously, you're going to piss off a lot of people who actually know what they're talking about. It's like an armchair history college grad trying to tell a war veteran "well, it actually didn't happen the way you think it did".

 

[Heartbreaker]

A known nVidia shill was a moderator here, received compensatory gifts from nVidia, exerted power over other posters, and the people who ran AT sanctioned it.

All total facts.

No, a moderator here, joined a focus group. That doesn't make him a shill.

I would bet the majority of people on forums would accept free hardware in exchange for providing feedback.

Doing so doesn't make someone a shill.

Practically all reviewers outside of Consumer Reports, accept company freebies in one form or another.

That doesn't mean all reviewers are shills.

 

[thilanliyan]

As I suspected, good PR for HU lol. Hope they got a bunch more subs...meaning less chance of being ignored by nV or other companies.

 

[Mopetar]

No, a moderator here, joined a focus group. That doesn't make him a shill.

I would bet the majority of people on forums would accept free hardware in exchange for providing feedback.

Doing so doesn't make someone a shill.

Practically all reviewers outside of Consumer Reports, accept company freebies in one form or another.

That doesn't mean all reviewers are shills.

Reviewers are (hopefully) up front about the fact that they are reviewers and there's an assumption and understanding that they receive products to review at no cost unless otherwise stated. Very few tend to review products from only one particular company as well. Conflating reviewers with random forum posters (or outright trolls) isn't really doing your argument any favor to begin with, but the reasoning itself is faulty.

A few bad apples from over a decade ago engaging in some shady marketing program doesn't make everyone who has a positive thing to say about a brand or a product a paid shill. It also doesn't make actual reviewers shills even if the former were true. You're trying to argue backwards from these rather obvious statements that everyone would agree with as though it's somehow proof that a company couldn't have engaged in this underhanded kind of marketing.

Buying an axe doesn't make someone an axe murder. True statement.

Most people aren't axe murders. True statement.

Therefore it's foolish to believe that Bob is an axe murderer even though Karen was found dead with axe wounds and a whole lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to Bob having done it! Bad logic as a result of improperly using true statements.

 

[Martimus]

No, a moderator here, joined a focus group. That doesn't make him a shill.

I would bet the majority of people on forums would accept free hardware in exchange for providing feedback.

Doing so doesn't make someone a shill.

Practically all reviewers outside of Consumer Reports, accept company freebies in one form or another.

That doesn't mean all reviewers are shills.

Have you been contacted by AEG, nVidia, or any other marketing firm to post on sites for nVidia? If so, it is Anandtech policy that you must disclose that or be banned.

 

[KeithP]

It was not well worded, and maybe impacted by a bit of lockdown fatigue.

What a load of BS. Nvidia only retracted because of the sh@t storm that erupted. Nobody at Nvidia will lose their job over this, and they most certainly should, because the ideas expressed in the original letter are part of Nvidia standard operating procedures and corporate culture.

I currently have a 2070 Super but will no longer purchase their products until such time that there is a major management shake up and house cleaning at Nvidia.

-KeithP

 

[Heartbreaker]

Have you been contacted by AEG, nVidia, or any other marketing firm to post on sites for nVidia? If so, it is Anandtech policy that you must disclose that or be banned.

Nope.

Just because I think some people over-react and see conspiracies everywhere. Doesn't mean I am part of one of those conspiracies.

 

[Martimus]

That claim is 100% true. You can use this to conduct your own research: https://consumerist.com/2006/02/08/nvidia-focus-group-member-details-hidden-program/

The hidden nVidia viral program - partnered with AEG - seeded multiple tech forums with shills using alt accounts. nVidia provided them gifts "evaluation equipment" of high-end video cards, 30" monitors, nForce motherboards, and 3DVision gear as compensation. These little dancing orifice puppets kept their affiliation hidden until finally exposed.

There were at least four here including Rollo and Keysplayer (who joined after it was exposed). Rollo used to post under multiple handles at multiple forums using alts like JethroBodine and FallenAngel. Also another member (Wreckage) openly admitted posting anti-AMD sentiment purposefully to wind people up and to try to get into the program.

nTrollo was particularly slime-scum because he got numerous people banned for "witch-hunts" before we found out the accusations were true. He also repeatedly threatened AT with "freedom of speech" lawsuits and that he had access to unlimited ISPs to re-register.

The most interesting part is that nTrollo was dumb as a brick when it came to graphic cards, and he didn't even understand what he was actually testing or any of the tech. So clearly the program wasn't looking for competence as joining criteria.

And while I can't prove it directly, to this day I suspect the very highest echelons of AT such as Derek Wilson and Anand were in on it, as there was no real backlash, just a temp ban for nTrollo. I'll bet nVidia either provided AT compensation or strong-armed them somehow.

I mean nTrollo was allowed back in to do more even damage after exposed, and Keysplayer was given moderation powers. Who the hell voluntarily allows their own private commercial forum to be moderated by a sock puppet from a tech company that has a competing forum?

Rollo and Wreckage are the reason the last nVidia card I bought was the TNT2. I had mostly forgotten about the shady nature of nVidia before this thread, which reminded me of all the terrible things they've done over the past 20 years. I was actually considering getting a 3080 in the Spring once they become available, but there is no way I'm doing that now.

Nope.

Just because I think some people over-react and see conspiracies everywhere. Doesn't mean I am part of one of those conspiracies.

Sorry, this forum was a hellhole during that time. The vitriol and attacking of anything that could be seen as pro ATI/AMD/any possible nVidia competitor, or attacking of reports of any possible nVidia flaws was terrible. Gas lighting was the theme of the day for anything that didn't follow nVidias vision. This forum was considered the most toxic of any forum including offtopic and personal forums. It seems to have improved, but I don't want to see it ever get back to that point. I actually left the forum completely in 2014 due to the toxic nature of it, and didn't come back until earlier this year when I bought my new computer.

The funny part is that nVidia had far more driver issues than AMD at the time, but the few AMD issues were harped on by the same dozen people to drown them out.

 

[Stuka87]

No, a moderator here, joined a focus group. That doesn't make him a shill.

I would bet the majority of people on forums would accept free hardware in exchange for providing feedback.

Doing so doesn't make someone a shill.

Practically all reviewers outside of Consumer Reports, accept company freebies in one form or another.

That doesn't mean all reviewers are shills.

nVidia Focus Group members were all shills. It was literally their job.

shill - Noun
An accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

This is EXACTLY what the focus group members did. We have three accounts here currently that act this exact same way. And despite reporting them, nothing has happened.

 

[Dribble]

Rollo and Wreckage are the reason the last nVidia card I bought was the TNT2. I had mostly forgotten about the shady nature of nVidia before this thread, which reminded me of all the terrible things they've done over the past 20 years. I was actually considering getting a 3080 in the Spring once they become available, but there is no way I'm doing that now.

Just to balance this - AMD had Red team plus which was the selected chosen of the fanboys in AMD Red team who got given free cards. AMD are just as happy as Nvidia to market like that. Same purpose - to have some very enthusiastic supporters who pop up in forums to strongly support their team.

 

[Mopetar]

Just to balance this - AMD had Red team plus which was the selected chosen of the fanboys in AMD Red team who got given free cards. AMD are just as happy as Nvidia to market like that. Same purpose - to have some very enthusiastic supporters who pop up in forums to strongly support their team.

I don't think anyone doubts AMD (or any other tech that's big enough to afford it) hasn't done similar things. There have been a lot of shenanigans like this out of Intel more recently with them strong-arming one site into adjusting the scoring for their CPU benchmark or that group they had hired that put out some terrible research paper with results produced with some utterly dubious settings. I think there was another group they'd hired to try to make it look like Zen had some of the same kind of security problems that Intel was experiencing due to Meltdown / Specter when those were relatively new.