NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,791
48,489
136
im sure there are other countries that would be way more accommodating than any state

Imported products are vulnerable to the whims of politicians who want to tariff stuff. Makes more sense to build plants that produce for the region you want to sell in. Which is what Tesla is doing.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Yeah but CA is overall more like TX cities that are way less dense and more reliant on car transportation, no? That's part of it.

Regardless - this whole event has done a good job of exposing what dumb shits are elected in CA. What kind of an asshat tweets Fuck Elon Musk?

Oh well - I sincerely hope he takes that to heart and slowly moves production to a more accommodating state.
The dumb congresswoman is in bed with the labor union, big oil, and UAW. She hates that Tesla is non-union.

Elon Musk will 100% eventually move Fremont plant production elsewhere soon as he can. Count on it. Thing about Musk is he says what he is going to do. He doesn't bullshit. The next Gigafactory after Berlin will be built in Texas. Almost 100% certain. Elon will announce it in the next 1-3 months.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Deciding early to stop people from interacting and the virus from transmitting has more impact than the mode by which people move around. Density is less the issue than crowding but that's largely irrelevant if you stop movement early enough.

He's unlikely to move out of Fremont anytime soon. It would cost billions to build a new facility somewhere to just replace existing capacity. Eventually he'll need a new US plant to reach the kind of volume he wants but that's going to be a 5-10 year project. Like the other automakers who moved out of the rust belt I'd expect that facility to be in the south somewhere where labor costs are lowest.

If the primary mode of transportation for your area is butt-to-butt jamming of subways all-day.... yeah, you're not going to contain shit.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
I disagree. I think it's time to reopen the economy. People are generally taking more precautions and wearing masks. Open up manufacturing and retail stores. Let people decide if they want to risk it. Georgia opened up yet not all stores are open. Many are still voluntarily closed. That's their choice. But let it be their choice. Likewise, it's people's choice whether they want to do business with places that are open. The restaurants here can do dine in if they want. But most restaurants are still electing to do takeout and delivery only. And I respect that. If we go by what people here want, there should be zero airlines operating and flying right now. Why are airlines allowed to operate when it's impossible to keep the social distancing? If airlines are allowed to operate, so should pretty much everything else.

If you feel so strongly that it's safe to reopen the economy, I respect your decision. However, you should be the first to volunteer to work on the front lines, helping doctors and nurses with COVID-19 patients. Since you feel that COVID-19 is fully contained now and going down, and it's not that big of a risk, you and your family should help show everyone that it's really, really safe to be out in public and that there won't be are result of a second outbreak. I'm sure you're really brave when you are making these statements, show us how brave you are, show us your conviction to opening the economy.

All of those who are pro-reopening the economy should have a mandatory 1 month period where they and their family work on the front lines helping relieve the burden that our healthcare workers are facing. If they are too scared to do that? Shut the fuck up about reopening the economy from the comforts and safety of your own home.

It's like voting to go to war. If you feel so strongly about sending other people to die? You should be on the front lines yourself along side those that you are sending to war. If that was mandatory, we will see a lot less warmongering.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
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If you feel so strongly that it's safe to reopen the economy, I respect your decision. However, you should be the first to volunteer to work on the front lines, helping doctors and nurses with COVID-19 patients. Since you feel that COVID-19 is fully contained now and going down, and it's not that big of a risk, you and your family should help show everyone that it's really, really safe to be out in public and that there won't be are result of a second outbreak. I'm sure you're really brave when you are making these statements, show us how brave you are, show us your conviction to opening the economy.

That literally makes no sense.

Because you feel the economy should open then you should work with doctors in the hospital? Wut?

No silly, the reason we want to open the economy is that more harm is being done than good. We're basically pouring acid on ourselves to kill a virus - but people are simply too ineptly moronic to understand the underlying implications of doing so.

See the video of the woman jailed for opening up her hair salon. Judge looked like a giant ass-hat for calling her selfish... the reality is, every single hair stylist in there has children to feed, and bills to keep the lights on. So unless congress wants to keep sending $1,200 checks shit needs to change.

Not getting a virus is important, but you know whats more important? Having food. Having AC, water, utilities. Having a roof over your head. The amount of entitlement in this forum of folks who just have zero clue of what its like to be your average middle class is just exhausting.


 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,554
16,915
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No silly, the reason we want to open the economy is that more harm is being done than good. We're basically pouring acid on ourselves to kill a virus - but people are simply too ineptly moronic to understand the underlying implications of doing so.
So here's the point where we successfully stopped the Bad Thing from happening, so now you're stating 'see? it wasn't worth it! nothing bad even happened!'. This virus, if left unchecked, will probably kill somewhere in the realm of 15M people in the US alone. You are not in a position to judge that the fucking economy, goddamned MONEY, is worth 15 million of our fellow countrymen.

Quit being a fucking child. We've been staying at home with Netflix, video games, and amazon for a whole two months.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
That literally makes no sense.

Because you feel the economy should open then you should work with doctors in the hospital? Wut?

No silly, the reason we want to open the economy is that more harm is being done than good. We're basically pouring acid on ourselves to kill a virus - but people are simply too ineptly moronic to understand the underlying implications of doing so.

See the video of the woman jailed for opening up her hair salon. Judge looked like a giant ass-hat for calling her selfish... the reality is, every single hair stylist in there has children to feed, and bills to keep the lights on. So unless congress wants to keep sending $1,200 checks shit needs to change.

Not getting a virus is important, but you know whats more important? Having food. Having AC, water, utilities. Having a roof over your head. The amount of entitlement in this forum of folks who just have zero clue of what its like to be your average middle class is just exhausting.



People like you have no concept of the importance of a human life. You feel that a human is probably worth less than X amount of dollars. Volunteering on the front lines will help you learn that concept, that a human life isn't worth X amount of dollars. Your decisions are based on your personal wealth being stagnant because of this "inconvenience" that is the pandemic. You have no idea what an exponential growth of infections can do, what people who have lost loved ones because idiots who aren't quarantining properly feel. Fuck you and your lack of empathy for human lives.

And yes, having food, having utilities, having a roof over your head is important. That is what our government is supposed to be there for, especially since we're living in one of the richest countries in the world. You are a turd sandwich, good sir. Maybe it will take you losing one of your loved ones from this terrible disease to wake you the fuck up.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
52,354
7,615
136
Not getting a virus is important, but you know whats more important? Having food. Having AC, water, utilities. Having a roof over your head. The amount of entitlement in this forum of folks who just have zero clue of what its like to be your average middle class is just exhausting

My first-blush reaction was hey, just follow the government's orders & shelter in place if you're non-essential until this dies down. But story after story is coming out about how people are still having to pay business licenses, business rents, etc. without actually working & getting an income. Which is fine, except that they've also applied for government financial aid & have gotten nothing. And this applies not just to business owners, but also individuals who haven't been able to get unemployment or the $600 weekly stimulus assistance yet. There's only so much emergency funds you can burn through until it's gone, and only so much credit you can apply for before you burn that up to & get denied. From a Facebook post from a guy north of where I used to live:

Is there anything else I can do for The State of Michigan Governor Whitmer? I paid my 3 Liquor Licenses on April 30 $4000, I paid my 3 Restaurant Licenses April 30 $1700, I paid my Workman’s Comp Premium $4800 (still have to pay workmans comp on PPP), I paid my Property taxes Feb 12, Murrays and Pirates Cove $23000, Schloegels $21000, my personal residence in Michigan $5800, my rental house $2800, my two parking lots $700.—-don’t worry about the food that needed to be thrown out that was only $6000 since Insurance didn’t cover I will pay out of pocket, I paid $38000 in March Payrolls not covered by any plan. This week i will pay off the last of my vendors and maintenance people who, luckily I haven’t had to call (wonder how they are surving). We need income to pay these expenses! Thank you for protecting us from ourselves! 113 Covid-19 Cases, 14 deaths, 300,000 people to feed in the very insignificant Upper Peninsula of Michigan. In spite of the governor I will survive! (This is not a political statement, it is an economic argument, and i put it out there to emphasize that if this is happen to me, its happening to a whole heck of a lot more people who likely can’t withstand anymore)

This dude is over $100k in the hole right now, between his business & his personal expenses, with no end in sight. I'm willing to bet that the small business stimulus check he'll eventually get won't cover nearly that amount. I think a big part of the problem is that we didn't have an effective & efficiency emergency-aid system in place before all of this. I understand the virus is horrible & we need to get things locked down, but if the government is going to order you to stay home & stop your business activities, then they need to compensate businesses properly & an in a timely manner, and if the individual economic aid packages are having issues, they need to send out the National Guard (with proper PPE) to make people are getting food, supplies, and medicine.

I primarily support small businesses in my work in IT, and most of them are getting hit really hard. I suspect a large portion of them are not going to make it out of this without going bankrupt. The only ones who are getting the small business stimulus are the ones who have really good financial people on their payroll, who can navigate things & pull strings & get the funding coming in. Some areas are getting better...my food-service clients have generally gone from a 70% drop over the last couple of months to a 30% drop, but a lot of my other clients are just straight-up closed. I've been able to setup numerous VPN installations for those who can work from home, but if you have to make stuff or provide an on-site service, things are still pretty sketchy right now & the government hasn't exactly issue a clear & detailed plan for supporting small businesses owners over the next few months & possibly years, so it's understandable why people are starting to get freaked out...they're literally running out of money, going into enormous amounts of debt, going bankrupt, and have no way out at the present time.

I don't know what the right answer is. Initially, I thought we should just do a complete & total lockdown for 3 weeks & call it "done" - get the 2-week virus out of our systems & then an extra week to make sure it's really dead. But a smart phased rollout sounds more doable...so many companies are still running as essential, so it's not like we can completely shut things down properly. Not only that, but the data isn't saying what we thought it would. In NYC, for example, there are over 21,000 deaths from COVID. However, the statistics say that the majority of people being hospitalized aren't the people still working, but are actually the people staying at home:

“We were thinking that maybe we were going to find a higher percentage of essential employees were getting sick because they were going to work. That this maybe was nurses, doctors, transit workers—that’s not the case,” Cuomo said. Some 83% of new patients are out of work or retired, and aren’t even leaving their home on a daily basis. “This is a surprise. Overwhelmingly, the people were at home,” he added.

Not only that, but "96% of those hospitalized in recent days have underlying health issues, things like cancer, asthma and diabetes, that can make COVID-19 more severe." So staying at home, oddly enough, is turning out to be not the right answer, which kind of defies logic, but the facts are the facts. This is one of those things that changed my mind about being in support of a (smart) phased rollout: if the majority of people getting sick staying at home, and if most of the people getting sick have underlying conditions, then we can take precautions to get people back to work. The WHO has already warned us that COVID will be with us for a long time:


And for most states, 1/3 of the deaths are in long-term care facilities:


In my state, 50% of the deaths are in nursing homes, to the point where they're doing COVID-only nursing homes:


The reality is that we can't do this forever. I wish we could ride it out, but financially-speaking, that just isn't going to be possible for most people & for most businesses, so I understand why different states are taking what look like bad approaches to reopening...they're stuck between a rock & a hard place. Currently, there is no right answer. What we need is clear direction from the government & expedited financial aid to businesses & individuals in need in order to support them until we can get back on our feet as a nation. The actual rollout & implementation of those two things has been less than desirable, unfortunately.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
4,785
146
So here's the point where we successfully stopped the Bad Thing from happening, so now you're stating 'see? it wasn't worth it! nothing bad even happened!'. This virus, if left unchecked, will probably kill somewhere in the realm of 15M people in the US alone. You are not in a position to judge that the fucking economy, goddamned MONEY, is worth 15 million of our fellow countrymen.

Quit being a fucking child. We've been staying at home with Netflix, video games, and amazon for a whole two months.

Stuff like this - especially the parts of calling me a child can only come from the mouth of someone that is completely entitled with no sense of how the middle-class is living right now.

Remember all those stories you read about how the average american only has $300 in their savings account? Now realize that is the AVERAGE. There is an entire 50% of folks that have lower than that.

But hey - just stay at home and watch Netflix! And get meal/grocery deliveries! ITS SIMPLE STUPID!! STAY AT HOME!!
 

mopardude87

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2018
3,348
1,576
96
that sounds like quite the ride LOL

yeah this trip was unintentional in fact, i spooked the roomie when i was able to tell her things i saw her doing in the living room. Told her what she was watching even. There is ways i am reading on to do it intentionally. Need the right state of mind and that connection but i known several who have done this.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
The reality is that we can't do this forever. I wish we could ride it out, but financially-speaking, that just isn't going to be possible for most people & for most businesses, so I understand why different states are taking what look like bad approaches to reopening...they're stuck between a rock & a hard place. Currently, there is no right answer. What we need is clear direction from the government & expedited financial aid to businesses & individuals in need in order to support them until we can get back on our feet as a nation. The actual rollout & implementation of those two things has been less than desirable, unfortunately.

No, we can't do this forever. But until there is adequate and accurate testing for COVID-19 and Antibody tests are available, as well as the discovery of an effective treatment for COVID-19 (Not vaccine but treatment for those who has a very bad time with the virus), it isn't safe to go out. Other countries like South Korea and Taiwan are doing amazing amounts of testing which is why it would be safer for them to keep their economies open. Their hospitals are not overwhelmed which is incredibly important because that has a domino effective on all the other issues people still suffer today. Accurate and constantly updated information is being shared with all of the people in their country which is another safety net.

Here in the US, we have a lack of accurate testing at the moment on a massive scale, we are unsure of the effective treatment for this thing, and we have a president telling us to ignore the CDC guidelines and inject Clorox in our blood. This country is not prepared to reopen the economy and until the leadership gets their act together, there is a visible lack of confidence from people about their own safety.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,791
48,489
136
Not only that, but the data isn't saying what we thought it would. In NYC, for example, there are over 21,000 deaths from COVID. However, the statistics say that the majority of people being hospitalized aren't the people still working, but are actually the people staying at home:



Not only that, but "96% of those hospitalized in recent days have underlying health issues, things like cancer, asthma and diabetes, that can make COVID-19 more severe." So staying at home, oddly enough, is turning out to be not the right answer, which kind of defies logic, but the facts are the facts. This is one of those things that changed my mind about being in support of a (smart) phased rollout: if the majority of people getting sick staying at home, and if most of the people getting sick have underlying conditions, then we can take precautions to get people back to work. The WHO has already warned us that COVID will be with us for a long time:

Those people aren't getting sick at home in a vacuum. Household transmission is a major problem. Say you've got multiple people living in the same household with the elderly members in the family also there. Some of those people likely have jobs they can't quit and so are getting exposed to the virus amongst the general public then they bring it home where their vulnerable family members catch it. This is why the Chinese government forcibly isolated positive cases in hotels, it is the only way to sever chains of household transmission.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,554
16,915
146
Stuff like this - especially the parts of calling me a child can only come from the mouth of someone that is completely entitled with no sense of how the middle-class is living right now.

Remember all those stories you read about how the average american only has $300 in their savings account? Now realize that is the AVERAGE. There is an entire 50% of folks that have lower than that.

But hey - just stay at home and watch Netflix! And get meal/grocery deliveries! ITS SIMPLE STUPID!! STAY AT HOME!!
It's ironic that you use the word entitled, given that you've single-handedly decided that human lives simply aren't worth enough to keep fucking furniture stores closed.

If your complaint is the lack of funds, look to the government that should be providing assistance right now, don't blame the people already in bad shape.

Also, stop being a coward. Call out those with the responsibility, don't just take the easy way out and call for the deaths of millions so the dow goes up another few percent.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,681
6,046
136
it's gonna suck no matter what we do

some people will have to go back to work, but honestly i'm not shopping at any physical stores unless absolutely necessary. and a lot of people i know are doing the same.

so a bunch of businesses are going to go under no matter what we do. and a lot of people are going to lose their jobs and then their houses.

at least staying home put the unmitigated spread in check and gave some more time to prepare.

without the lockdown we could've looked like NYC in cities all over the US.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,791
48,489
136
And we can still, if people don't obey the lockdown, and if states start reopening. You don't get out of the woods if you turn around and start walking right back into them.

Given the relatively low resumption of "normal" activities in the states that have "reopened" some of that is going to be blunted by people making risk assessments for themselves and still staying home. The government can say the economy is "reopened" until they are blue in the face but if the public doesn't have confidence that the health threat has receded many people will decline to participate.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,554
16,915
146
Given the relatively low resumption of "normal" activities in the states that have "reopened" some of that is going to be blunted by people making risk assessments for themselves and still staying home. The government can say the economy is "reopened" until they are blue in the face but if the public doesn't have confidence that the health threat has receded many people will decline to participate.
Yup, and as an added bonus all those reopened businesses no longer get protections from being closed anymore. So yeah, they'll fail, but at least the economy will be opened and more people will be infected!
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
The reality is that we can't do this forever. I wish we could ride it out, but financially-speaking, that just isn't going to be possible for most people & for most businesses, so I understand why different states are taking what look like bad approaches to reopening...they're stuck between a rock & a hard place. Currently, there is no right answer. What we need is clear direction from the government & expedited financial aid to businesses & individuals in need in order to support them until we can get back on our feet as a nation. The actual rollout & implementation of those two things has been less than desirable, unfortunately.

It's hard to find a silver lining in the middle of a pandemic, but you have to make the best choices you can with the information available to you. Unfortunately, we know there is a lot we know we don't know.

We do know that the lock down is unsustainable.

We don't know if or when a vaccine will be here. That appears to be the only counter measure and even if we develop one in time, there are additional unknowns such as effectiveness and side effects. One thing we know we won't know is the long term effects.

Given that there are currently six types of coronavirus and zero vaccines, it's probably best not to bet the ranch on a timely and effective solution. Let's hope someone hits a grand slam and we see 6 billion safe and effective doses coming soon.

We were slow in turning the battleship when this first appeared and we likely will be slow in changing course again.
 
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mopardude87

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2018
3,348
1,576
96
but honestly i'm not shopping at any physical stores unless absolutely necessary. and a lot of people i know are doing the same.

Yeah i only plan on 3 things tomorrow as i get my stimulus then i got no plans PERIOD till about mid June given i will then be set on everything i need. The bitch will be finding more chamomile tea, its a odd choice but i found out i am a good candidate for it. Helps me to sleep, when nothing else but indica does. Stores are so bought out of this stuff, i resort to the 2 for $3 Raspberry Chamomile Pure teas at the nearby Dollar General till i can find the bags so i could sun bake some pitchers. :)

NOT going to walmart again, refuse to. Well till mid June and even then. 10 people in Dollar General max or 500 of a hoard at the wally world?
 

local

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2011
1,852
517
136
Wow such angst this morning. For what it is worth I don't believe any of you are wrong. But the reality is that the gov is not taking the actions necessary to allow long term lock down to happen. If the gov is not going to take those extraordinary measures then it is not feasible to tell everyone to stay home and starve while getting notices that you will be evicted as soon as the courts reopen. On the Dr Evil side of things the gov reopening allows companies to reopen keeping the money flowing and the can point to the opposing team as being the bad guy for wanting you to run out of money. And finally on the cynical asshole the truth sucks but lets be realistic side of things this virus is never going away and every person that gets it and recovers is one step closer to this being over.

I expected us to be bringing out our dead and putting them in a passing cart by now but that is not the case. Lets take a page from some of those European countries that people around here love to point at so much and let this thing slow burn a bit more to bring up the number of antibodies out there. However I am not saying throw the doors open lets all go sit in a movie theater or go to a basketball game. Keep retirement communities locked down, keep large events closed, open the beaches and state parks but baton large gatherings Indian police style, keep any hot spots locked down, wear a mask because yes it helps reduce spread, keep your social distancing and lets get some movement going. Like it or not there is a cost assigned to a human life and I would rather have a slow ramp up than everything collapsing all at once with mass riots once that cost has been far exceeded.

My greatest fear is that this will cause some kind of down the road disease like chicken pox and shingles but far worse as I do not believe this will ever be gone.

It's hard to find a silver lining in the middle of a pandemic, but you have to make the best choices you can with the information available to you. Unfortunately, we know there is a lot we know we don't know.

We do know that the lock down is unsustainable.

We don't know if or when a vaccine will be here. That appears to be the only counter measure and even if we develop one in time, there are additional unknowns such as effectiveness and side effects. One thing we know we won't know is the long term effects.

Given that there are currently six types of coronavirus and zero vaccines, it's probably best not to bet the ranch on a timely and effective solution. Let's hope someone hits a grand slam and we see 6 billion safe and effective doses coming soon.

We were slow in turning the battleship when this first appeared and we likely will be slow in change course again.

Seeing as how most of the coronavirus types just cause one of a hundred kinds of a cold and the only other serious one doesn't really spread that great, thankfully, I believe the seriousness of this one will generate a vaccine. There are coronavirus vaccines for animals, my dog got one recently. But even with a vaccine this will remain as not everyone will take one, worldwide not just in the US, hell I will not take it if they skip 3rd phase trials. And also this may require a yearly shot like the flu so figure on millions of cases a year going forward.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,738
126
Old photo of people eating in a restaurant (in 2019).

94242499_260030022057904_2079901981115154432_n.jpg