NON-religious forms of AA??

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SampSon

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
7,160
1
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There are plenty of non-secular self help groups.
I attended SOS (Save Our Selves) in the past.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,996
126
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
BTW, AA is no longer court mandated because of its religious nature. But it's not only religious, it's a cult which formed in the 30's as an offshoot of another cult. One might also note that nowhere in the 12-step does it mention to STOP FUCKING DRINKING.

Ummm.....

AA is still court ordered in many states. There is a movement by bother proabtionees and AA's to stop this practice. The court system just has to catch on.

Please tell me how AA is a cult? The Oxford Group did start getting kind of out there, that's why AA split from them.

And nope, not a single place in the steps does it mention stopping drinking. AA teaches you how not to take the first drink.

You're right, the Supreme Court has just refused to hear appeals of rulings in favor of plaintiffs who sued over AA being religious in nature.

Yes, but that's only half the story. They're not hearing any more appeals over the religious nature of AA because they made it illegal to mandate AA in the first place. A lot of courts might be ordering it, but that order does not stand up to challenge. The Supreme Court bitch-slapped AA because it was forcing religion onto people who had no interest in it.

 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: DomS
well basically one side is saying that AA IS religious because it mentions a higher being. The other side is saying that while it mentions a higher power, this can be anything you want, and the meetings aren't centered around forcing God down anyone's throat. In the end I don't think it really matters either way, if the program helps people get better.

The 12 Suggested Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Nope, not religious at all. Hey if it works for you, great, but let us not call an apple an orange. God is all over this place.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: DomS
well basically one side is saying that AA IS religious because it mentions a higher being. The other side is saying that while it mentions a higher power, this can be anything you want, and the meetings aren't centered around forcing God down anyone's throat. In the end I don't think it really matters either way, if the program helps people get better.

The 12 Suggested Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Nope, not religious at all. Hey if it works for you, great, but let us not call an apple an orange. God is all over this place.


3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Thats the only thing you needed to bold.

 
S

SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: bctbct

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Thats the only thing you needed to bold.

The very fact that the word God is chosen as a name for this spiritual power speaks volumes about what is meant. Then when they backpedal in the latter part of the sentence they just have to go and call God a him. This resolves God not into some nebulous spiritual non-thing, but a single male entity. That one sentence characterizes the spiritual power in such a way that it could not be anything but a religious deity.
 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
5,466
0
76
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Skeeedunt
QFT. Nothing worse than narrow-minded assholes filled with blind hatred.

LOL. Ironing is very delicious.

Mmmm, blind hatred... with some self-righteousness on the side, please.
 

1sikbITCH

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2001
4,194
574
126
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.

To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.

Nonsense.

12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.

The truth about addiction:

1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.

2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.

3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.

How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.

I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.

As an addict coming up on 9 years clean (heroin and crack) I agree with most of this, but I would add that NA does have some helpful tools and information an addict can use to quit. When I walked through the doors of NA, I had already made up my mind to quit. I just needed a guide. I'd been ingesting every drug I could get my hands on morning noon and night for 21 years and in many ways I was still that 14 year old kid. I could never make it past 3 days because getting high was all I knew. I just ignored the steps and all that god shit and took what I needed.

What I learned from NA has helped me stay clean all these years. But they should offer it as a class, not a cult. Once my year was up (court appointed) I never looked back.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???

My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?

You proved her right.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol?that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Info on AA
Secular alternative.
I can't comment on its effectiveness, but it's a good source of information if nothing else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwx2P5LJgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjpOsE3xoY
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???

My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?

You proved her right.

Yes, it was clearly all God's plan. God's tricky like that. But if he didn't recover, oh that's just personal weakness.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???

My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?

You proved her right.

Yes, it was clearly all God's plan. God's tricky like that. But if he didn't recover, oh that's just personal weakness.

Yes.
 
S

SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???

My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?

You proved her right.

Yes, it was clearly all God's plan. God's tricky like that. But if he didn't recover, oh that's just personal weakness.

Yes.

Well I was thinking that since my quitting drinking (after 4 years of nightly boozing I might add) was partially meant to be a direct refutation to the idea that a person NEEDS a higher power to escape addiction then I cannot completely extricate the results from that idea thereafter. I got the strength to quit from within myself sure, but part of that strength was derived indirectly from faith based addiction recovery simply because that was the opponent I elected to spur myself on. Because of the nature of alcoholism I can never relent. I must be the "complete" non-religious addiction recovery story. In a way I'm nearly certain that an AA member would now declare that AA, or specifically faith based AA, is my higher power, even though I'm using it in the opposite way than it was intended.
 

moonbit

Senior member
Dec 15, 2006
640
0
0
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Well I was thinking that since my quitting drinking (after 4 years of nightly boozing I might add) was partially meant to be a direct refutation to the idea that a person NEEDS a higher power to escape addiction then I cannot completely extricate the results from that idea thereafter. I got the strength to quit from within myself sure, but part of that strength was derived indirectly from faith based addiction recovery simply because that was the opponent I elected to spur myself on. Because of the nature of alcoholism I can never relent. I must be the "complete" non-religious addiction recovery story. In a way I'm nearly certain that an AA member would now declare that AA, or specifically faith based AA, is my higher power, even though I'm using it in the opposite way than it was intended.

I really like the way you described this. AA was created to be Christian-centric, but I believe that the tools can be used without any sort of religious faith.

As for making/forcing/brainwashing/etc...I haven't studied AA enough to know, but I've been a part of Al-Anon, AA's sister program for family and friends of alcoholics for a few years, and they emphasize "take what you like and leave the rest," and that everything in Al-Anon is a suggestion, not a must. Though I'm sure many are turned off by the religious overtones and spiritual emphasis, if one is determined, one could be successful in the program without using any sort of divine figure as a higher power.

Truly, the Higher Power for any 12-step program is individual responsibility and freedom - a person can only control his/her own actions, and no one else's. Complete acceptance of this (and it's harder than it seems) is a large part of recovery. Well, for Al-Anons anyway.

Hey, huge kudos to all of you in here that have achieved sobriety, no matter how you did it. :thumbsup:
 

Obsoleet

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2007
2,181
1
0
Sobriety achieved through religious belief not only kills people, but lowers quality of life for all of us.

As long as you drink at home and don't get behind a wheel, you are doing the world a favor without the religious mental crutch. I would suggest drinking over religious belief given the choice. With mental health, which is more difficult without superstitious beliefs, you can quit and be far healthier than a person who professes belief in a god.

Don't take the easy way out, do the hard work. Achieve mental health. Fight the addiction with logic and science.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: Obsoleet
Sobriety achieved through religious belief not only kills people, but lowers quality of life for all of us.

As long as you drink at home and don't get behind a wheel, you are doing the world a favor without the religious mental crutch. I would suggest drinking over religious belief given the choice. With mental health, which is more difficult without superstitious beliefs, you can quit and be far healthier than a person who professes belief in a god.

Don't take the easy way out, do the hard work. Achieve mental health. Fight the addiction with logic and science.

You are insane.

The majority of people on this planet are religious. Countless millions have quit their addictions by using their faith to do so, and in so doing, are able to function better in society, and most importantly, not kill people in drunk driving accidents and so on.

I am somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist personally, but it's only obvious to any rational human being that it's much better to have a person have some faith or whatever they need, than to continue being a danger to society.

Granted, overzealous religion is bad when used as a basis for hate, war, prejudice, etc. But I have been to AA, and there are many very kind people there, many people who have DECADES of sobriety under their belts, and nobody I ever met there pushed religion in any way. It was up to YOU to decide how to have some faith.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.


AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.

If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.

There is no fucking difference between spirituality and religion.

Also, that is a load of BS. Read a first edition of AA and see how much it has changed from the 1st edition to the 4th edition. Bill W. and Dr. Bob were talking about Jesus H. fucking Christ, NOT a god of your choosing (which is silly anyway).

There is no scientific evidence for the existence of the "Spirit", which makes the argument about whether AA is a religious or a spiritual program, moot. AA is itself a RELIGION (group, doctrine, rituals).

To the OP: tell your "friend" to man up and stop drinking or to blow his brains out and save everyone he is related to a ton of trouble.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

It's not a joke. It's basic psychology.

So if people belive fictional stories written by idiots who lived 2000 years ago, it will help them avoid alcoholism?

Or do you mean if they beleive in imaginary people it will help them?

Or do you mean if they are such weak minded they believe religious rubbish it will help them not be an addict?

People like you make me sick.

You clearly misunderstood and by your reaction are clearly stupid.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,238
146
Originally posted by: 1sikbITCH
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.

To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.

Nonsense.

12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.

The truth about addiction:

1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.

2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.

3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.

How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.

I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.

As an addict coming up on 9 years clean (heroin and crack) I agree with most of this, but I would add that NA does have some helpful tools and information an addict can use to quit. When I walked through the doors of NA, I had already made up my mind to quit. I just needed a guide. I'd been ingesting every drug I could get my hands on morning noon and night for 21 years and in many ways I was still that 14 year old kid. I could never make it past 3 days because getting high was all I knew. I just ignored the steps and all that god shit and took what I needed.

What I learned from NA has helped me stay clean all these years. But they should offer it as a class, not a cult. Once my year was up (court appointed) I never looked back.

In my opinion, the only info and useful tool you needed, in the end, was to make the decision to stop and stick with it.

The fellowship at NA may have made you feel better about yourself and you may have learned from other's strength how to find the strength within yourself, but in the end, only YOU can make you stop.

And I disagree with 12 step programs for a completely non-religious reason. The first step is ABSURD! It's almost as if it is designed to keep you addicted. And the second and third steps are just as equally absurd.

You are NOT powerless. If you were, you would NEVER be able to quit. No "higher power" or gods can make you quit. Only you can do that.

In the end, 12 step programs have a failure rate that is EQUAL to quitting on your own. Which means they are no more effective than finding the strength within yourself and taking control of your life.
 

911paramedic

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2002
9,448
1
76
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.


AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.

If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.

Yes, SOS. However, I agree that AA is HIGHLY religious. Lords prayer, the twelve steps are based on Christianity, and so are the founding members.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.


AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.

If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.

Yes, SOS. However, I agree that AA is HIGHLY religious. Lords prayer, the twelve steps are based on Christianity, and so are the founding members.

You are completely right except for the statement about AA being religious. The founding members made sure the program would work for EVERYONE...they took special care to include atheists and agnostics. One of the best chapters in the Big Book is dedicated to agnostics.

I know many atheists and agnostics that have done very well in the program.

Let me explain religion vs. spirituality in very simple terms:
Religion is for people who believe in hell.
Spirituality is for those of us that have been there.
 

moonbit

Senior member
Dec 15, 2006
640
0
0
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Let me explain religion vs. spirituality in very simple terms:
Religion is for people who believe in hell.
Spirituality is for those of us that have been there.

Heh, that's good. I'll have to remember that one.

 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,559
0
0
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.


AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.

If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.

Yes, SOS. However, I agree that AA is HIGHLY religious. Lords prayer, the twelve steps are based on Christianity, and so are the founding members.

You are completely right except for the statement about AA being religious. The founding members made sure the program would work for EVERYONE...they took special care to include atheists and agnostics. One of the best chapters in the Big Book is dedicated to agnostics.

I know many atheists and agnostics that have done very well in the program.

Let me explain religion vs. spirituality in very simple terms:
Religion is for people who believe in hell.
Spirituality is for those of us that have been there.

You read that on a bumper sticker?

"If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you... Your Heavenly Father will never let you down!" -Dr. Bob, co-founder of AA

"...after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life - or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. " -Alcoholics Anonymous

"Let's look first at the case of the one who says he won't believe -- the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage." -Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, co-founder of AA

"From great number of such experiences, we could predict ... the doubter ... who still considered his well-loved A.A. the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name." -Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, co-founder of AA

So yes, they specifically address Atheists and Agnostics, but only in a derogatory way or in an effort to convert them.