krunchykrome
Lifer
- Dec 28, 2003
- 13,413
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Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
lol, why did you have to open another can of worms
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
BTW, AA is no longer court mandated because of its religious nature. But it's not only religious, it's a cult which formed in the 30's as an offshoot of another cult. One might also note that nowhere in the 12-step does it mention to STOP FUCKING DRINKING.
Ummm.....
AA is still court ordered in many states. There is a movement by bother proabtionees and AA's to stop this practice. The court system just has to catch on.
Please tell me how AA is a cult? The Oxford Group did start getting kind of out there, that's why AA split from them.
And nope, not a single place in the steps does it mention stopping drinking. AA teaches you how not to take the first drink.
You're right, the Supreme Court has just refused to hear appeals of rulings in favor of plaintiffs who sued over AA being religious in nature.
Originally posted by: DomS
well basically one side is saying that AA IS religious because it mentions a higher being. The other side is saying that while it mentions a higher power, this can be anything you want, and the meetings aren't centered around forcing God down anyone's throat. In the end I don't think it really matters either way, if the program helps people get better.
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: DomS
well basically one side is saying that AA IS religious because it mentions a higher being. The other side is saying that while it mentions a higher power, this can be anything you want, and the meetings aren't centered around forcing God down anyone's throat. In the end I don't think it really matters either way, if the program helps people get better.
The 12 Suggested Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Nope, not religious at all. Hey if it works for you, great, but let us not call an apple an orange. God is all over this place.
Originally posted by: bctbct
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Thats the only thing you needed to bold.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Skeeedunt
QFT. Nothing worse than narrow-minded assholes filled with blind hatred.
LOL. Ironing is very delicious.
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.
To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.
Nonsense.
12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.
The truth about addiction:
1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.
2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.
3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.
How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.
I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???
My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol?that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Info on AA
Secular alternative.
I can't comment on its effectiveness, but it's a good source of information if nothing else.
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???
My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?
You proved her right.
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???
My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?
You proved her right.
Yes, it was clearly all God's plan. God's tricky like that. But if he didn't recover, oh that's just personal weakness.
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: evident
aa is religious???
My mom is a social worker and pretty much all the (government funded) addiction recovery programs she's a part of are faith based. Her nonsense about how God was the only way to clean living pissed me off so much I quit drinking to prove her wrong (along with the other obvious benefits). Now the question is did I really prove her wrong or did I prove her right?
You proved her right.
Yes, it was clearly all God's plan. God's tricky like that. But if he didn't recover, oh that's just personal weakness.
Yes.
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Well I was thinking that since my quitting drinking (after 4 years of nightly boozing I might add) was partially meant to be a direct refutation to the idea that a person NEEDS a higher power to escape addiction then I cannot completely extricate the results from that idea thereafter. I got the strength to quit from within myself sure, but part of that strength was derived indirectly from faith based addiction recovery simply because that was the opponent I elected to spur myself on. Because of the nature of alcoholism I can never relent. I must be the "complete" non-religious addiction recovery story. In a way I'm nearly certain that an AA member would now declare that AA, or specifically faith based AA, is my higher power, even though I'm using it in the opposite way than it was intended.
Originally posted by: Obsoleet
Sobriety achieved through religious belief not only kills people, but lowers quality of life for all of us.
As long as you drink at home and don't get behind a wheel, you are doing the world a favor without the religious mental crutch. I would suggest drinking over religious belief given the choice. With mental health, which is more difficult without superstitious beliefs, you can quit and be far healthier than a person who professes belief in a god.
Don't take the easy way out, do the hard work. Achieve mental health. Fight the addiction with logic and science.
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.
you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.
AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.
If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.
It's not a joke. It's basic psychology.
So if people belive fictional stories written by idiots who lived 2000 years ago, it will help them avoid alcoholism?
Or do you mean if they beleive in imaginary people it will help them?
Or do you mean if they are such weak minded they believe religious rubbish it will help them not be an addict?
People like you make me sick.
Originally posted by: 1sikbITCH
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.
To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.
Nonsense.
12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.
The truth about addiction:
1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.
2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.
3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.
How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.
I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.
As an addict coming up on 9 years clean (heroin and crack) I agree with most of this, but I would add that NA does have some helpful tools and information an addict can use to quit. When I walked through the doors of NA, I had already made up my mind to quit. I just needed a guide. I'd been ingesting every drug I could get my hands on morning noon and night for 21 years and in many ways I was still that 14 year old kid. I could never make it past 3 days because getting high was all I knew. I just ignored the steps and all that god shit and took what I needed.
What I learned from NA has helped me stay clean all these years. But they should offer it as a class, not a cult. Once my year was up (court appointed) I never looked back.
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.
you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.
AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.
If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.
you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.
AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.
If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.
Yes, SOS. However, I agree that AA is HIGHLY religious. Lords prayer, the twelve steps are based on Christianity, and so are the founding members.
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Let me explain religion vs. spirituality in very simple terms:
Religion is for people who believe in hell.
Spirituality is for those of us that have been there.
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
Originally posted by: rudeguy
Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?
If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.
you might want to do some research into 12 step programs before you speak.
AA is not religious, its spiritual. There is a huge difference.
If he wants to try something other than AA, have him check out SOS. I haven't heard of anyone actually staying sober because of it but it will give him an option.
Yes, SOS. However, I agree that AA is HIGHLY religious. Lords prayer, the twelve steps are based on Christianity, and so are the founding members.
You are completely right except for the statement about AA being religious. The founding members made sure the program would work for EVERYONE...they took special care to include atheists and agnostics. One of the best chapters in the Big Book is dedicated to agnostics.
I know many atheists and agnostics that have done very well in the program.
Let me explain religion vs. spirituality in very simple terms:
Religion is for people who believe in hell.
Spirituality is for those of us that have been there.
