NON-religious forms of AA??

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: QueBert
AA is religious a bunch of the 12 steps clearly talks about praying to GOD, and talk about God. People who hate Religion on here - that's your choice. But AA helps a lot of people and a lot of them attribute it to GOD. I don't give 2 shits why a person decided to stop drinking, but if they think God helped more power to them. How can you belittle Religion when it clearly helps so many people?

Because it's machiavellian.

The end does NOT justifiy the means.

If they say that meth helped them quit drinking it's not a good outcome is it?

Just because religion helped them, doesn't mean it was the right road for them to take.

Vunerable people like alcoholics should not be brainwashed into believing in lies.

It's like the church is preying on these people just to get more bums in seats on sunday.

Editted for spellin.

I disagree, even if you think it's due to brainwashing there are MILLIONS of people who have stopped drinking due to Religious influence, there is no possible way that can be bad. Your line about Meth helping them stop drinking is retarded.

if religion helped them then it had to be the right road because it saved their live. That is why they call it "being saved" because most were on a road to the grave.

Your close mindedness is sad, you don't like Religion? Fine, that's your choice, but for you to shit on people who's lives have been enriched endlessly from it is fucking dumb.

and no I'm not Religious but I can at least understand and appreciate how it works for a lot of people.

Bullshit.

What's right isn't always popular, what's popular isn't always right.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: QueBert

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: QueBert
AA is religious a bunch of the 12 steps clearly talks about praying to GOD, and talk about God. People who hate Religion on here - that's your choice. But AA helps a lot of people and a lot of them attribute it to GOD. I don't give 2 shits why a person decided to stop drinking, but if they think God helped more power to them. How can you belittle Religion when it clearly helps so many people?

Because it's machiavellian.

The end does NOT justifiy the means.

If they say that meth helped them quit drinking it's not a good outcome is it?

Just because religion helped them, doesn't mean it was the right road for them to take.

Vunerable people like alcoholics should not be brainwashed into believing in lies.

It's like the church is preying on these people just to get more bums in seats on sunday.

Editted for spellin.

I disagree, even if you think it's due to brainwashing there are MILLIONS of people who have stopped drinking due to Religious influence, there is no possible way that can be bad. Your line about Meth helping them stop drinking is retarded.

if religion helped them then it had to be the right road because it saved their live. That is why they call it "being saved" because most were on a road to the grave.

Your close mindedness is sad, you don't like Religion? Fine, that's your choice, but for you to shit on people who's lives have been enriched endlessly from it is fucking dumb.

and no I'm not Religious but I can at least understand and appreciate how it works for a lot of people.

Bullshit.

What's right isn't always popular, what's popular isn't always right.

Think of how many lives are saved every year by those people not drinking and driving.

I couldn't care less about a drunk driver going out and wrapping his car around a tree and killing himself. One less road hazard in my opinion. But in many cases that doesn't happen, and instead they end up running into someone and possibly killing them.

If it's any consolation, I still agree with you on the brainwashing thing. But those are other people. Unless it happens to someone close to you, don't worry too much about it. There are much worse fates than being brainwashed by religion into living a better life. Just remember that you still have control over your own mind.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.

To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.

Nonsense.

12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.

The truth about addiction:

1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.

2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.

3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.

How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.

I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.

 

[jersiq]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception
'the hell, because of ONE post questioning faith in the first page of the thread, this has turned into a war of beliefs.

I say let him do whatever. If it takes JUST religion to pull one out of harm, then so be it. I'd rather have one believe in Santa Claus and be happy rather than one not believing in Santa Claus and drinking himself to death.

Yeah, but then you need to go to RA meetings to get religion out of your life and return to been a normal, rational person.

I smell a troll in here, and I feel the need to feed it. There's nothing quite like myopic statements such as yours which lend credence to the notion that most atheists spout vitriolic ideas as if they have diarrhea of the mouth. Or is it diarrhea of the mind?

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.

To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.

Nonsense.

12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.

The truth about addiction:

1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.

2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.

3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.

How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.

I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.

I was about to post this. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

Lots of people (including me) have faced trouble with addictions. None stop until they realize that only they hold the power to obliterate their addiction.

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: QueBert
AA is religious a bunch of the 12 steps clearly talks about praying to GOD, and talk about God. People who hate Religion on here - that's your choice. But AA helps a lot of people and a lot of them attribute it to GOD. I don't give 2 shits why a person decided to stop drinking, but if they think God helped more power to them. How can you belittle Religion when it clearly helps so many people?

It's simply replacing one addiction with another. Whether one addiction is better than the other is up for debate, however.

 

[Obsoleet]

Religious belief is a mental illness. I would not suggest you trade one crippling disease for another. Too many people already live on wives' tales and superstitions, we don't need anymore dangerous people in the world.

The religious prey on the weak and helpless, those that cannot mentally defend themselves from cult indoctrination.

 

[DangerAardvark]

BTW, AA is no longer court mandated because of its religious nature. But it's not only religious, it's a cult which formed in the 30's as an offshoot of another cult. One might also note that nowhere in the 12-step does it mention to STOP FUCKING DRINKING.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
Religious belief is a mental illness. I would not suggest you trade one crippling disease for another. Too many people already live on wives' tales and superstitions, we don't need anymore dangerous people in the world.

The religious prey on the weak and helpless, those that cannot mentally defend themselves from cult indoctrination.

..as do eco-theists.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
BTW, AA is no longer court mandated because of its religious nature. But it's not only religious, it's a cult which formed in the 30's as an offshoot of another cult. One might also note that nowhere in the 12-step does it mention to STOP FUCKING DRINKING.

Seventh Day Adventism? My ex's mom was a Seventh Day Adventist. Most were totally against drinking, many were vegetarians, all were weirdos.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
BTW, AA is no longer court mandated because of its religious nature. But it's not only religious, it's a cult which formed in the 30's as an offshoot of another cult. One might also note that nowhere in the 12-step does it mention to STOP FUCKING DRINKING.

read the big book. and also, i've never met anyone in aa, in my 20+ years of attending thousands of meetings, who don't tell you the first thing one needs to do is put down the drink.

i'm not a religous type, but i've seen God work through other people.

edit- and again, aa is not a religous program, it's a spiritual one. God can stand for "group of drunks" if you want. it doesn't matter much, it's a power greater than ourselves as "we understand him. most people i knw in the program have no religous affiliation at all.

maybe if people replaced "praying" with "meditation" it would make them feel better.

but there's no denying that aa has done for many what they couldn't do for themselves.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: rise
God can stand for "group of drunks" if you want.

Just FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(word)#Capitalization

If we were to be all inclusive, the term would be "god". Once you proper noun the term, you are referring to a subset of gods, the most specific being the Christian God due to it's first uses in the New Testament.

I don't know how the term is used in AA, but that is an important point.

If I was pushing spirituality, I'd use the term "god" or "a god" (especially in speech) to prove that I am not focusing on a specific one.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: rise
God can stand for "group of drunks" if you want.

Just FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(word)#Capitalization

If we were to be all inclusive, the term would be "god". Once you proper noun the term, you are referring to a subset of gods, the most specific being the Christian God due to it's first uses in the New Testament.

I don't know how the term is used in AA, but that is an important point.

If I was pushing spirituality, I'd use the term "god" or "a god" (especially in speech) to prove that I am not focusing on a specific one.

Err, where I'm from the first letter in a sentance has to be capital.

 

[yhelothar]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

It's not a joke. It's basic psychology.

So if people belive fictional stories written by idiots who lived 200 years ago, it will help them avoid alcoholism?

Or do you mean if they beleive in imaginary people it will help them?

Or do you mean if they are such weak minded they believe religious rubbish it will help them not be an addict?

People like you make me sick.

No, I mean basic psychology - maybe you should take some classes or understand the human mind. You took my post and twisted it into your own hatred and anger. The first part of any psychological analysis (this includes addiction) is understanding where the patient's faith, or lack there of, is.

WTF are you smoking?
You just love to spew random crap with such authority with no fucking evidence or reasoning/claims to back them up do you?
What kind of psychology class do you take where you learn that the first thing a psychologist is to analyze a person's lack of faith?

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet
Err, where I'm from the first letter in a sentance has to be capital.

I quoted the line I was responding to instead of every instance of the term god in his post. Maybe before criticizing you could have double checked.

 

[jemcam]

AA is not religious, it is spiritual, there is a huge difference.

 

[jemcam]

Originally posted by: silverpig
Apparently NA is accepting of alcoholics and they're not as big on the whole God thing as AA is... That's just what I've heard.

Sorry, but you're wrong. NA and CA are almost carbon copies of AA.

 

[JohnCU]

smartrecovery.org

or cognitive behavioral therapy + naltrexone and campral, both excellent medications

i take campral, it works some days, i have more sober days with it than without it

 

[jemcam]

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: QueBert
AA is religious a bunch of the 12 steps clearly talks about praying to GOD, and talk about God. People who hate Religion on here - that's your choice. But AA helps a lot of people and a lot of them attribute it to GOD. I don't give 2 shits why a person decided to stop drinking, but if they think God helped more power to them. How can you belittle Religion when it clearly helps so many people?

It's simply replacing one addiction with another. Whether one addiction is better than the other is up for debate, however.

Yeah, because spiritualilty kills millions of people each year too!

 

[JohnCU]

Originally posted by: jemcam

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: QueBert
AA is religious a bunch of the 12 steps clearly talks about praying to GOD, and talk about God. People who hate Religion on here - that's your choice. But AA helps a lot of people and a lot of them attribute it to GOD. I don't give 2 shits why a person decided to stop drinking, but if they think God helped more power to them. How can you belittle Religion when it clearly helps so many people?

It's simply replacing one addiction with another. Whether one addiction is better than the other is up for debate, however.

Yeah, because spiritualilty kills millions of people each year too!

well he may be referring to other addictions also.. like the founder of AA became a sex addict after he stopped drinking.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: astroidea

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

It's not a joke. It's basic psychology.

So if people belive fictional stories written by idiots who lived 200 years ago, it will help them avoid alcoholism?

Or do you mean if they beleive in imaginary people it will help them?

Or do you mean if they are such weak minded they believe religious rubbish it will help them not be an addict?

People like you make me sick.

No, I mean basic psychology - maybe you should take some classes or understand the human mind. You took my post and twisted it into your own hatred and anger. The first part of any psychological analysis (this includes addiction) is understanding where the patient's faith, or lack there of, is.

WTF are you smoking?
You just love to spew random crap with such authority with no fucking evidence or reasoning/claims to back them up do you?
What kind of psychology class do you take where you learn that the first thing a psychologist is to analyze a person's lack of faith?

I prefer the term "assessment" or "conceptualization" to "analysis," but that's just me.

Whatever the case, I wouldn't say that a major step is determining faith per se. It's more about determining the nature of all supports in an individual's life, of which faith can be one.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Dumac
I don't need religion to keep myself from abusing drugs, but that's just me.

To be fair, it's easy to say stuff like that when you've never abused drugs before. People who are really deep in their addictions probably need SOME sort of help. I'm just not a fan of the spiritual/religious angle.

Nonsense.

12 step programs negate all responsibility and are designed to convert weak willed people to Christianity. Their core principle is: you are weak and unable to help yourself.

The truth about addiction:

1. You are an addict, not a victim. No one did this to you. You did it to yourself and you continue to do it to yourself. You stop being an addict when you quit and must simply learn to accept your inability to moderate.

2. Addiction is NOT a disease. It is a choice. It is simply you harming yourself and unwilling to stop. Some people may be more genetically predisposed to addiction, but in the end the answer to addiction is to STOP. It is the ONLY answer.

3. Structured, non-medical rehabs, be they 12 step or any other are NO MORE EFFECTIVE and have the SAME QUIT RATE as quitting on your own. 5% at 12 months according to AA's own documents! Why? Because in the end, unless you are locked up in a cell, the choice to quit is YOURS and YOURS alone. If you cannot make that choice, you will remain an addict. Programs cannot give you that will. Giving up to "higher powers" cannot give you that will. In the end it is 100% up to you.

How do I know this? I'm a former cocaine (freebase) and nicotine addict.

I stopped on my own over 20 years ago as soon as I realized *I* was the ONLY cause of my addictions and therefore *I* am the only one who can stop it.

This is the truth. From what I've seen of 12 step programs (based on what it has done to people I've known) is that they strip away personal responsibility and personal fulfillment. You didn't stop doing drugs, god stopped you. Now what makes you feel better? That you took personal responsibility and quit drugs, or that you caved, had no self control and god saved you.

There is an old saying "God helps those who help themselves". This basically means get off your ass and chagne your own damn life. But most modern religious sentiment is "put it in the hands of god". This is defeatist and it destroys the feeling of having done something to save or better yourself. I mean why even try if it is all up to god.

One thing is for sure, NEVER tell my wife god had anything to do with her quitting drinking and smoking. At least not without a good head start.

 

[rudeguy]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
BTW, AA is no longer court mandated because of its religious nature. But it's not only religious, it's a cult which formed in the 30's as an offshoot of another cult. One might also note that nowhere in the 12-step does it mention to STOP FUCKING DRINKING.

Ummm.....

AA is still court ordered in many states. There is a movement by bother proabtionees and AA's to stop this practice. The court system just has to catch on.

Please tell me how AA is a cult? The Oxford Group did start getting kind of out there, that's why AA split from them.

And nope, not a single place in the steps does it mention stopping drinking. AA teaches you how not to take the first drink.

 

[bignateyk]

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: rudeguy

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: RocksteadyDotNet

Originally posted by: spidey07
Have you ever considered that his problem is a result of a lack of faith?

If that's not a joke you're a freakin idiot.

It's not a joke. It's basic psychology.

So if people belive fictional stories written by idiots who lived 2000 years ago, it will help them avoid alcoholism?

Or do you mean if they beleive in imaginary people it will help them?

Or do you mean if they are such weak minded they believe religious rubbish it will help them not be an addict?

People like you make me sick.

no one mentioned religion.

you should really do some research before you speak. What happens is you admit that you are powerless over your addiction and that you need help from a higher power. Then the real miracles happen

Err, the OP mentioned religion.

And there is no higher power, so instead of wasting the guys time trying to get help from an imaginary being, maybe they should offer him some real help.

Faith != religious faith. Faith in yourself, for example.

 

[middlehead]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
Here's a religion free DVD player. :Q

Best post in the thread.