No way! France speaks out against US war plan

[ThreeLeggedGnome]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These armchair generals only sound tough ON THE INTERNET because there are other americans who will be sent in their place over there to fight that war if it ever happens. Nuke this nuke that, this blood-thirsty attitude is sickening.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I tell you what skippy, I've got family in two branches of the military right now. My cousin served in Desert Storm in the Marine corps and his brother is Airforce reserve in Germany NOW so we can go after AL-Quaeda in Afghanistan. I know people who were killed on 9/11. Nobody has a blood thirsty attitude, just experience and a willingness to learn from history.

It's intersting to me that the most vociferous posters in this thread are from Europe.
The same Europe that has a finanacial interest in keeping Saddam in power.
You people will put up with anything for money won't you?
I also wonder if WTC had happened in Europe, say Berlin, and it was the US who was being seen as being "reasonable" what would Europe expect from the US?

I'm an American, and talking about family members in service; my dad fought in WW2, Korea, then Vietnam. Does that give me the right to brag about what my relative has done for this country? Absolutely not. Maybe you should join the service yourself before big-mouthing about war. And what does Sadam have anything to do with WTC anyway?
Maybe we Americans should ask the Isrealis who will surely be at the receiving end of Sadam's weapons or the American GI's whether they are willing to have this war. Because its their lives that are on the front line not some ignorant war mongers' who cry for war from the back row.

 

[JellyBaby]

So there you have it. A case can be made for invasion. A case can be made to leave Iraq alone. Now it's up to the leaders to decide what to do. Unfortunately, constant "sabre rattling" over time makes it difficult to do anything but attack at some point, especially since it appears to be the Bush decided long ago the US will intervene in Iraq, no discussion.

I think destroying and rebuilding Iraq is the wrong option, given what evidence I've seen and assessing Iraq's potential and desire to threaten the US. There must be more than meets the eye here because the common man (me) can't honestly say "let's go!" on this one.

I think attacking will incite more terrorism against US, because problems with our random, control-minded foreign policy have not been addressed.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The day is comming when gun laws, or their equivalent will make it possible for every las man woman and child on the planet to carry and conseal a doomsday device. We must wake up or die.

I don't know about me, but you prefer death.

So instead we should be happy when only the criminals have guns, and we have no way to protect ourselves.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The day is comming when gun laws, or their equivalent will make it possible for every las man woman and child on the planet to carry and conseal a doomsday device. We must wake up or die.

I don't know about me, but you prefer death.

since gun laws are getting more restrictive in most places i don't see how thats the case. in any event private ownership of nukes isn't legal, so i'm going to assume doomsday devices would be illegal as well.


though we might get into a war over the mineshaft gap.

 

[Moonbeam]

Not at all, Presence, ELFenix, with growing fear, we will all be allowed to protect ourselves and doomsday devices will be easily created oy one and all, legally or illegally. It's wake up or die. You won't be excused by an argument.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It's wake up or die.

Fine, let's die. If it means never having to digest your fluff that you pull verbatim from 'Liberal Digest Weekly For Those With Crushing Personal Guilt' than I welcome death.

Seriously, what's wrong with death? If we are all dead then it doesn't really matter does it?

Sign me up for one of those personal doomsday devices and forward me your address Moonbeam. Thanks. See you soon.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

I wonder what it would be like to debate with a patriotic German of Nazi times. I bet you could argue with him up down, and all around, and still not get him to realize that Jews aren't the source of his ills. So, what makes us think we aren't in different in our myopia?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

How can a supposedly democratic country be so quick to blow off the opinions of the rest of the world. If you're going to play that old adage that "they're just jealous cause we're #1" then you have to accept the flip side of the coin which is that power deludes and corrupts.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Oh and I should add, the nature of delusion is being entirely confident that you aren't

 

[JellyBaby]

Originally posted by: EngineNr9
How can a supposedly democratic country be so quick to blow off the opinions of the rest of the world. If you're going to play that old adage that "they're just jealous cause we're #1" then you have to accept the flip side of the coin which is that power deludes and corrupts.

Simple. The executive branch of government is out of control and has been for decades.

BTW the US *is* a democratic country. If US citizens paid closer attention to its government and demanded more accountability from it, the government would act more in accordance with the will of the people. Still, we're far from a totalitarian regime.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think I shall side with the liberal cowards on this. All those sniveling types who don't want to go gung ho into Iraq. Yeah all those trecherous socialist bastards. Yeah. Lump me in with just about every general who fought in Desert Storm. Those rotten anti-American scum.

 

[CubicZirconia]

Originally posted by: EngineNr9
How can a supposedly democratic country be so quick to blow off the opinions of the rest of the world. If you're going to play that old adage that "they're just jealous cause we're #1" then you have to accept the flip side of the coin which is that power deludes and corrupts.

Don't you think the U.S. government has considered not invading Iraq? I'm sure they have. Just because other countries of the world don't want the U.S. to invade doesn't mean they shouldn't.

I'm not saying the U.S. should neccessarily invade, I'm saying they shouldn't just do what everyone else tells them to.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well I like a lot of what you say there Frances. You are asking some important questions- what's wrong with death and what does it matter. Great. But I don't think you are taking them seriously enough. When you describe my words as 'fluff', not that they aren't ,mind you, but I usually get something else from people not in a snit, and you say that I copy them from some Liberal source, when in fact, and this time I do know the actual truth since I know what I read, I couldn't even define Liberal much less ever studied it or what it is, and therefore also couldn't copy anybody, then I have to conclude that maybe something about my words disturbs you in some way that requires you to invent a means by which to minimize their effect so as to restore some bruised sensibility and that the way you do that is to self-talk yourself into the notion that they are nothing but derivative fluff. How quaint. It is an interesting way to attempt to minimize the importance of words, by minimizing the speaker, and such a gentle speaker at that, by calling him intellectually light and a phony. Now you have got him. In order to escape that cage he will have to boast that he is deep and original, but in doing so he will look like a braggart.

What oh what shall I do? Shall I allow you to get away with minimizing my poor fluffy borrowed words when I myself continue to labor under the delusion that they are important. Can you appreciate how stressful that will be for me? Or do I attack and deny and puff myself up to full size and deliver in a fully intoned and manifestly resonate voice that everything I have said here has not only been crystallized out of the depth of profound and perspicacious inner riches and is moreover not only original, but positively unique?

Well you have me stumped. How about, while I mull this over and await guidance, we take what I say as opinions contributing whatever they contribute to a debate that will affect a lot of lives.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hayabusarider, one bad thing for the side you picked here is that a lot of the Republicans who have joined with you are open to some charges of financial interest. A lot of them, Baker etc, work for oil interests that have Arab sentiment to appease. Their anti war stance could be more financial than philosophical, and they may bring that criticism with them. But right is right, even if all you're interested in is money, I guess.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I am sure you are right about some M, but I believe many think this is stupid or even just plain wrong. I do not recall Stormin Norman having a financial stake in this, but he is against it. BTW I saw Eagleburger several times, and he rejected attacking Iraq on moral principles. Some idiot I did not recognize was taking him to task for this, saying he lived in the past. We now have a new world where we need to attack whenever it seems in our best interest. I found that friggin scary. Must be our new manifest destiny.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think it is a very old manifest destiny that a lot of people have just been reluctant to express. You always find it in people without a moral center. Instead they have a black and white set of inflexible rules they operate from. It goes like this. If you scare me and I will kill you because I was so terrified as a child that I must never remember it. Everything is a threat to them because they never know what will remind them of the past. The constant inner agitation is ripe soil for the acquisition of enemies. An enemy is something to focus on externally so that there is never a risk us seeing that our minds are the source of the threat. War is a way to release the rage, to feel the intensity of being alive again like we were before we were killed while at the same time remaining completely amnesic.

Now we were attacked and the paranoia is out of the bottle and raging around the streets. The most deluded, those farthest from their feelings, those most emotionally cut off, those most afraid see their fears expressed in greater numbers and it emboldens them to agitate. We must kill the enemy or we will die. That's why Iraq is a mortal threat. It best feeds the lie.

If what is inside is terror of the self there can be no introspection, no sensitivity, no empathy, no recognition of the self in others. There can be no sense that anything inside is anything but evil. The result is a relativistic morality. There is no truth, nothing good, only competing interests, me verses you and the only form of intelligence, the inevitable logic is kill or be killed. There is no reason not to nuke Iraq because there is no war of good verses evil only might over weakness. There can be no understanding that the soul of man will not rest until the last injustice has been removed. Every child will have to be killed emotionally for there ever to be safety, because if one healthy mind survives it will struggle to right the wrong till the end of time.

There is a war to find and release the human spirit and if the US is on that side. If the US bows to evil, to convenience, to power, to expediency, to fear, to hate, to self interest, to anything but a commitment to truth and justice it will lose, it will be swept away. 'Nothing can stand before the will of God" "Nothing can change the nature of the True Human"

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Moonbeam, have a spliff and shut up, mmmmmkay?

Just kidding.

But, I must inform you, don't waste much of your breath on me.
I only read about 30% of what you post. But, its nothing personal. I am just exceptionally lazy.

I am incredibly self involved. If you are not me, my family, my friends, someone like me, or willing to leave me the hell alone than you can drop dead. That would include about 99.9% of the planet. So, you can save your messages of compassion. I am a sociopath.

Pass the lighter.

 

[freegeeks]

the american 13 year old-redneck-flagwaving-computernerd-punks in this thread are so funny

you guys really crack me up

for the older then 13 year -- you are just plain dumb

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Regardless of what you think of Iraq, no European country owes us fealty. Remember that from an outsiders perspective, the US could be seen as the most powerful country in the world poised to strike a mortal blow to another country without sufficient REAL provocation. There is a great difference between what you know and what you think you know. We think we know Iraq has some nasty things. Some (and not all here) think that he MIGHT use them against us. In a court of law this does not even constitute good hearsay evidence. We might be justified in attacking, but you cannot say for sure. Regardless of the results, many Europeans are uncomfortable with the precident we would set. Remember too, they will have to live with the outcome of this, for good or ill.

that's right .. everyone who keeps insisting that iraq has nuclear weapons and chemical/biological weapons .. lets see some evidence then shall we? "Oh but they aren't letting UN inspectors in!!!" .. neither would I. Does the US abide by the UN? Didn't think so..

 

[Moonbeam]

Frances Quote:


But, I must inform you, don't waste much of your breath on me.
I only read about 30% of what you post. But, its nothing personal. I am just exceptionally lazy.

I am incredibly self involved. If you are not me, my family, my friends, someone like me, or willing to leave me the hell alone than you can drop dead. That would include about 99.9% of the planet. So, you can save your messages of compassion. I am a sociopath
------------------------------------------------------

It's no trouble at all Frances. I like you vastly more than you like yourself. You know me. I care about people, right. You may be a sociopath, but I seen the other side of your face, remember? You're just used to turning people off to confirm your feelings of worthlessness, but I know your true nature, right? I got a hunch you're really a nice guy that got hurt showing tenderness to somebody and now you're sour on it. But no pain, no gain. I know it's irritating not to be able to manipulate me, but that's the way it goes. I'm like Clinton. I can focus on somebody's ass like a laser. And besides, I don't do it only for you. We are all the same. What I say to you applies to me and everybody. We can all learn. If it gets too hot for you maybe you'll want to tone down the kill um all stuff. I just don't like to walk away from stuff like that. Because of the calous stupidity shown by people like you millions and millions of people have died. I see you every time I look into a childs eyes. (That last sentense has multiple meaning of sufficient subtilty as to pass unnoticed. It will require a moment's reflection. Make sure you don't find only those interpretations that match your negativity.)

 

[JellyBaby]

that's right .. everyone who keeps insisting that iraq has nuclear weapons and chemical/biological weapons .. lets see some evidence then shall we? "Oh but they aren't letting UN inspectors in!!!" .. neither would I. Does the US abide by the UN? Didn't think so..

You're able to view the situation from their eyes, unlike many. The evidence of a serious, direct threat to the US is lacking. If they have it, we've not heard the details, just vague threats and a lot of "ifs" and "we think".

 

[Moonbeam]

Yea, Jelly, but penguins crap on snow. You should be locked up.

 

[shiner]

Does the US abide by the UN? Didn't think so..

Yes. In fact there are U.N. Inspectors that check out our nukes, etc... every now and then. We also allow the Russians to come in and inspect our stuff as part of the S.A.L.T. Agreements.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Regardless of what you think of Iraq, no European country owes us fealty. Remember that from an outsiders perspective, the US could be seen as the most powerful country in the world poised to strike a mortal blow to another country without sufficient REAL provocation. There is a great difference between what you know and what you think you know. We think we know Iraq has some nasty things. Some (and not all here) think that he MIGHT use them against us. In a court of law this does not even constitute good hearsay evidence. We might be justified in attacking, but you cannot say for sure. Regardless of the results, many Europeans are uncomfortable with the precident we would set. Remember too, they will have to live with the outcome of this, for good or ill.

that's right .. everyone who keeps insisting that iraq has nuclear weapons and chemical/biological weapons .. lets see some evidence then shall we? "Oh but they aren't letting UN inspectors in!!!" .. neither would I. Does the US abide by the UN? Didn't think so..

There are Russian weapon inspectors in this country quite frequently. We are also jointly destroying many types of weapons with the Russians. Why can't Iraq get onboard with the inspection teams? I think it's because they have something to hide.

I also have a question. Why does Iraq have to be a direct threat to the US? Do you think they are a threat to the ME? Would that be good enough reason to interdict? Are you smart enough to realize that if they are a threat to the ME that that is a direct threat to the US?

EDIT: As far as I know the UN does not do weapons inspections here, only the Russians.

 

[Moonbeam]

Dave, are we going down the road of knocking off every potential threat that anybody at all can conceive of? Maybe we should attack ourselves incase we pose an accidantal nuclear threat. There was an Israeli general on the other day claiming that Iraq isn't a threat to anything, that he sleeps very soundly at night, and that if, if Iraq were a threat, Israel would take care of it pronto.