No way! France speaks out against US war plan

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
From here here

France has historically been Iraq's best friend in the West. The special relationship began three decades ago, when General de Gaulle cultivated Arab countries in the wake of the 1967 war in the Middle East. This policy was seen by Paris as a way of boosting trade ties with oil-rich nations and extending French influence in an area which had been dominated by the "Anglo-Saxons".
By 1970 France was one of Iraq's main trading partners. Diplomatic and economic ties were given a crucial boost in 1974, when the then French Prime Minister, and current President, Jacques Chirac, called Saddam Hussein a personal friend; his government agreed to build an experimental nuclear reactor near Baghdad, which was later bombed by Israel. Arms sales continued apace, as did French infrastructure projects in Iraq; by the late 1970s France was second only to the USSR as supplier of both civilian and military equipment to the Iraqis.
The trend continued under French socialist governments in the 1980s. Like other Western countries, France strongly backed Iraq in its war against Iran. Paris supplied Baghdad with sophisticated weaponry, including Mirage fighter bombers and Super Etendard aircraft equipped with Exocet missiles. When the Iraqis found it hard to pay up, Paris rescheduled the debt.
France's response to the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 must be viewed in the light of this long-standing relationship. The French felt that they were in an ideal position to persuade Saddam Hussein to withdraw; just a few days before Operation Desert Storm began, French envoys were in Baghdad, trying to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis.
On the face of it, it seems hard to understand why France remains more favourably-inclined towards Baghdad than other Western countries. Economically, ties with Iraq have been a costly disaster. After helping Saddam Hussein build airports, factories and weapons, France is saddled with $4bn in unpaid bills. Military cooperation also backfired: the French helped arm a power which they later had to fight. And politically, French diplomacy has yielded scant results.
So why does Paris still prefer to view Saddam Hussein as a potential ally, rather than an enemy? Many in Britain and the US argue that France's policy towards Iraq is driven by the prospect of lucrative deals for French companies, notably oil giants, once UN sanctions are lifted. This may be true, but it's not the whole story. Most previous contracts with Iraq have been anything but lucrative for the French. The belief that diplomacy can work wonders without the threat of force, and a perennial reluctance to follow the Anglo-Saxons' lead, are probably as strong as any perceived economic interest.

From here here

UN approvals for the first three phases of the oil-for-food accord included Jordan with about $289 million, Egypt with $170 million, Syria with $87 million and Tunisia $73.7 million. These were modest when compared to France's $571 million.

From Here here

Non-Middle East States Iraqi President Saddam Husayn has pursued an economic policy of carrots and sticks geared toward ending Iraq's international isolation. Counting legal and illegal sales, Iraq will earn over $20 billion in oil income this year, making the sanctioned state an extremely attractive export market. In September, a New York Times article cited a CIA report suggesting that Iraq is giving UN oil-for-food contracts to states proffering "antisanctions rhetoric." Based on this policy, Germany and Japan, leading suppliers to Iraq prior to the Gulf War, now only account for one percent of total contracts, while France, Russia, and China account for 1/3 of these deals. The strategy appears to be paying off; by awarding contracts, Saddam has purchased international support for loosening UN Security Council constraints.

I could probably find more....dont' have time right now.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
So what if some people want to be communists? Some people want to become Hari Krishna, some want to dress as babies. You tell me me who you are that you can judge these choices?
Take a look around and see how people under Communist regimes live then come back here and tell me we should let that vile system spread.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: shinerburke
From here here

France has historically been Iraq's best friend in the West. The special relationship began three decades ago, when General de Gaulle cultivated Arab countries in the wake of the 1967 war in the Middle East. This policy was seen by Paris as a way of boosting trade ties with oil-rich nations and extending French influence in an area which had been dominated by the "Anglo-Saxons".
By 1970 France was one of Iraq's main trading partners. Diplomatic and economic ties were given a crucial boost in 1974, when the then French Prime Minister, and current President, Jacques Chirac, called Saddam Hussein a personal friend; his government agreed to build an experimental nuclear reactor near Baghdad, which was later bombed by Israel. Arms sales continued apace, as did French infrastructure projects in Iraq; by the late 1970s France was second only to the USSR as supplier of both civilian and military equipment to the Iraqis.
The trend continued under French socialist governments in the 1980s. Like other Western countries, France strongly backed Iraq in its war against Iran. Paris supplied Baghdad with sophisticated weaponry, including Mirage fighter bombers and Super Etendard aircraft equipped with Exocet missiles. When the Iraqis found it hard to pay up, Paris rescheduled the debt.
France's response to the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 must be viewed in the light of this long-standing relationship. The French felt that they were in an ideal position to persuade Saddam Hussein to withdraw; just a few days before Operation Desert Storm began, French envoys were in Baghdad, trying to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis.
On the face of it, it seems hard to understand why France remains more favourably-inclined towards Baghdad than other Western countries. Economically, ties with Iraq have been a costly disaster. After helping Saddam Hussein build airports, factories and weapons, France is saddled with $4bn in unpaid bills. Military cooperation also backfired: the French helped arm a power which they later had to fight. And politically, French diplomacy has yielded scant results.
So why does Paris still prefer to view Saddam Hussein as a potential ally, rather than an enemy? Many in Britain and the US argue that France's policy towards Iraq is driven by the prospect of lucrative deals for French companies, notably oil giants, once UN sanctions are lifted. This may be true, but it's not the whole story. Most previous contracts with Iraq have been anything but lucrative for the French. The belief that diplomacy can work wonders without the threat of force, and a perennial reluctance to follow the Anglo-Saxons' lead, are probably as strong as any perceived economic interest.

From here here

UN approvals for the first three phases of the oil-for-food accord included Jordan with about $289 million, Egypt with $170 million, Syria with $87 million and Tunisia $73.7 million. These were modest when compared to France's $571 million.

From Here here

Non-Middle East States Iraqi President Saddam Husayn has pursued an economic policy of carrots and sticks geared toward ending Iraq's international isolation. Counting legal and illegal sales, Iraq will earn over $20 billion in oil income this year, making the sanctioned state an extremely attractive export market. In September, a New York Times article cited a CIA report suggesting that Iraq is giving UN oil-for-food contracts to states proffering "antisanctions rhetoric." Based on this policy, Germany and Japan, leading suppliers to Iraq prior to the Gulf War, now only account for one percent of total contracts, while France, Russia, and China account for 1/3 of these deals. The strategy appears to be paying off; by awarding contracts, Saddam has purchased international support for loosening UN Security Council constraints.

I could probably find more....dont' have time right now.

France = Europe?

Does Alabama = North America?

Do you have any clue how many countries make up the European Union?
 

CubicZirconia

Diamond Member
Nov 24, 2001
5,193
0
71
So what if some people want to be communists?

So what? The problem is that the only people who really want to be communist are the leaders. The rest of the population is left with absolutely no choice.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
So what if some people want to be communists? Some people want to become Hari Krishna, some want to dress as babies. You tell me me who you are that you can judge these choices?

Live and let live, or you shall never have really lived.
LMAO, "what if some people want to be communists?" That's the funniest thing I've read all day. Yeah, countries the world over were ACHING for a communist regime. Do you know what a hole every single ex-communist country is save for East Germany? Of course not, it's not like you've ever been to one or read about the necessary policy of containment the West was forced into after WWII. I can't believe you said such a silly thing.

Look...you're just as deluded as the people you accuse. Democracy does not always function on the smaller elements of our live, but you can bet your ass, my ass and Mr. Hussein's ass that after Vietnam, the US does not go to war on whims like, "oh we have a grudge against Iraq let's go risk young American lives over there." Of course, you've never been to America either. You're just being spoonfed by your local media as well.

Would Iraq be better off without a dictatorship regime? UNDOUBTABLY. That fact you might suggest people are happy under this sort of regime automatically labels you either as an idiot or anti-American zealot immediately. Hussein has killed members of his family in to ensure none of them try to ascend to his position, you really think he gives a sh*t about his people?

Does the US have justification for toppling the regime in Iraq? A trickier question. With all of you nutjobs for some odd reason protecting the rights of a hardline dictator to oppress the Kurds and liberally starve his own people, it doesn't seem quite worth the trouble at the time. Especially when you consider there does not seem to be a post-desposing plan ready for the country. However if the US Government with all its checks and balances tells me that there is imminent danger on the horizon from Iraq I will believe them over the word of the Iraqi Foreign Minister. I'm just that brainwashed.
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
regime change ? they need a collective brain transplant. have the eggheads at those cryogenic farms work to preserve some of these
french brains so we when we build the better person we can leave out idiotic ideological sensibilities.

their fundamentalist belief in diplomacy is self-serving here. the french had the excuse of wanting to preserve their economic interests
but now they've decided to tone down their criticism of american policy vis-a-vis iraq so as not to endanger their percentage of the
spoils once the inevitable american victory happens.

[french] perennial reluctance to follow the Anglo-Saxons' lead

so pig-headed

:frown:
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
France = Europe?
Can you not read? The articles specifically mention France. Geez...you must really be blind.

That or maybe you hurt your head when you fell out of the chair.

If you are able to provide facts, I'll fall off my chair in surprise.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
So what if some people want to be communists? Some people want to become Hari Krishna, some want to dress as babies. You tell me me who you are that you can judge these choices?

Live and let live, or you shall never have really lived.
LMAO, "what if some people want to be communists?" That's the funniest thing I've read all day. Yeah, countries the world over were ACHING for a communist regime. Do you know what a hole every single ex-communist country is save for East Germany? Of course not, it's not like you've ever been to one or read about the necessary policy of containment the West was forced into after WWII. I can't believe you said such a silly thing.

Look...you're just as deluded as the people you accuse. Democracy does not always function on the smaller elements of our live, but you can bet your ass, my ass and Mr. Hussein's ass that after Vietnam, the US does not go to war on whims like, "oh we have a grudge against Iraq let's go risk young American lives over there." Of course, you've never been to America either. You're just being spoonfed by your local media as well.

Been to America, enjoyed myself. Been lots of other places around the world too. Have you even got a passport?

Would Iraq be better off without a dictatorship regime? UNDOUBTABLY. That fact you might suggest people are happy under this sort of regime automatically labels you either as an idiot or anti-American zealot immediately. Hussein has killed members of his family in to ensure none of them try to ascend to his position, you really think he gives a sh*t about his people?
The US nor any other country has the rights to DICTATE the regiem in any other country, Idiot. If you don't like it, tough sh1t.

And you'll be giving a sh1t I suppose whilst you bomb the ppl of Iraq? Nah, didn't think so.

Does the US have justification for toppling the regime in Iraq? A trickier question. With all of you nutjobs for some odd reason protecting the rights of a hardline dictator to oppress the Kurds and liberally starve his own people, it doesn't seem quite worth the trouble at the time. Especially when you consider there does not seem to be a post-desposing plan ready for the country. However if the US Government with all its checks and balances tells me that there is imminent danger on the horizon from Iraq I will believe them over the word of the Iraqi Foreign Minister. I'm just that brainwashed.

Turkey have oppressed their own Kurdish People, but I don't see the US wanting to topple their HOPELESS coalition Government. No they are cozying up like the Hypocrites they are. Care to explain away that policy?
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Turkey have oppressed their own Kurdish People, but I don't see the US wanting to topple their HOPELESS coalition Government. No they are cozying up like the Hypocrites they are. Care to explain away that policy?
Well for one the Turkish government was elected. Saddam was not. Oh sure Iraq holds elections and Saddam gets elected but how open and fair do you really think they are.
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Nah, that'll be the sanctions, M8. Who do you think impossed those.....?????
They were starving before the sanctions, hell even before the Gulf War. Look at North Korea and how much aid gets in there yet the people are still starving and forced to eat grass while the leaders live it up like the bloated fat cats communist pieces of monkey dung they are.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
27,727
16
81
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Turkey have oppressed their own Kurdish People, but I don't see the US wanting to topple their HOPELESS coalition Government. No they are cozying up like the Hypocrites they are. Care to explain away that policy?
Big difference. Turkey "oppressing" their Kurds is debatable. But even if they do, they arent gassing them by the thousands. They aren't mass murderers, AND they aren't trying to kill us.

 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Have you even got a passport?
I've been all over the world. Even spent some time in good ol Deutschland. Enjoyed it quite a bit. Well except for the night we had the run in with the skin heads in Munich.......
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,959
6,798
126
Where you see Iraq feel free to substitite France.

The WW11 lessons are valid, I think. Germany felt there was great injustice in the world. The Germans had a view on themselves that was being thwarted by history. They had just been unable to accomplish a regime change in, I forget, I think Iraq. The economy was in trouble. A mad man gained control over the government by suspicious means and began a militaristic buildup and saber rattling. He began to accuse the Iraqis, it was the Iraqis wasn't it, of being the cause of everything that was wrong with the world. He began a propaganda war of lies and deception to whip his people into a state of war mongering psychosis. They began to legally detain their own citizens and suspend freedoms. They looked around and noticed that they were the big bully on the block. Nobody could stand against them. They had all the smart technology. So they did something interesting, in not new. They attacked Iraq. It didn't matter about the death because the Iraqis weren't really important. They weren't human in the same way the Germans were. The Germans had culture. Iraq supported people who wore beanies with propellers. They had to die. Then a funny thing happened on the way to the party. The rest of the world turned against them and did everything to bring them down. A no account nobody across the sea started work on a device that would have put and did put an end to their ally's nonsense. It was made possible by an Iraqi scientist. The Germans were the best, the brightest, the most advanced, they even had the biggest egos, but they were taken down. Wasn't that wonderful. And all because they wanted a short cut to redress their grievances. They didn't trust that truth would out, that they could take a high road and work things out with justice and compassion. But how could they. They would have had to look inside and see their pain. How could they know that you can never end your own pain by causing others to feel it. Yes, how could they know that. They were cowards and didn't want to remember what even a baby, I mean what every baby has to face and forget. They didn't know they had already died in the first world war, the childhood holocaust, so they set out to recreate the situation so they could relive it unconsciously all over again just as every human automaton must. The moth dies in the flame because he has lost sight of the sun.

 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Turkey have oppressed their own Kurdish People, but I don't see the US wanting to topple their HOPELESS coalition Government. No they are cozying up like the Hypocrites they are. Care to explain away that policy?
Well for one the Turkish government was elected. Saddam was not. Oh sure Iraq holds elections and Saddam gets elected but how open and fair do you really think they are.

Don't make me laugh! Turkey is the shining light of Democracy? The Goverment is corrupt and ineffective, trust me, even a Dictator would do the country more justice at this point in time. At least then some action could be taken where it counts, rather than th coalition arguing about each measure until nothing is done.

 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
even a Dictator would do the country more justice at this point in time. At least then some action could be taken where it counts, rather than th coalition arguing about each measure until nothing is done.
And that folks is exactly how Hitler came to power.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: shinerburke
Have you even got a passport?
I've been all over the world. Even spent some time in good ol Deutschland. Enjoyed it quite a bit. Well except for the night we had the run in with the skin heads in Munich.......

Sorry to hear that. Those guys are a meanace. We have a tiny contingent of those fux in the UK too, that model themselves on the German bunch.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
What do you expect!? It's France we're talking about here. You can't expect much from them when they're all fscking idiots. :disgust:

nik
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Been to America, enjoyed myself. Been lots of other places around the world too. Have you even got a passport?
I'm a Canadian-born citizen, O Brilliant One. Although being brown-skinned I don't even need to show my passport - just my driver's licence - to cross the border at any time. And amazingly I've even been to European and Muslim nations like Luxembourg and Pakistan. Where have you been lately?
rolleye.gif


The US nor any other country has the rights to DICTATE the regiem in any other country, Idiot. If you don't like it, tough sh1t.

And you'll be giving a sh1t I suppose whilst you bomb the ppl of Iraq? Nah, didn't think so.
Who ever has the right to make any international action? The incredibly simple facts are:

A) The regime in power in Iraq would advocate and actively pursue the destruction of America, Canada, Britain, the entire West if given the chance. One tries not to let people opposed to your existence from acquiring more power.
B) If let to roam totally unshackled, Iraq would bulldoze through Kuwait in a week, then go for Iran next. Does the humanitarian reason of preserving the way of life of people in these countries give America "the right" to contain Iraq? What's the point of containing when you have an opportunity to simply end the problem before it grows even more unwieldy?
C) The security of the Middle East is a top priority for the basest of reasons: Economics. You can't let a hostile power control your critical resources. Of course I'm sure once gas prices started to double, triple, ... you would be just as much on board for an attack as those bloodthirsty Americans. Or has your enlightened country found replacement fuels which escaped the notice of the rest of the world?

Turkey have oppressed their own Kurdish People, but I don't see the US wanting to topple their HOPELESS coalition Government. No they are cozying up like the Hypocrites they are. Care to explain away that policy?
Why would I want to or need to? You want to go from attacking a hostile, dictator-run nation to an allied democratic one? The problem with Iraq is apparent and involves A) a hostile threat and C) vital resources, otherwise you really think anyone could care less? Let people sort out their own damn countries.

Again, I'm not even in favour of attacking Iraq at this time because I'm not convinced there is any post-attack plan in place for the country at all. I don't think you can go in, get rid of the old government and just leave at that point - whoever fills the power vacuum then might be even worse. The point is you're so incredibly naive and spoonfed by your own media that you won't even stop to think of that.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: yllus

Let people sort out their own damn countries.

You said it...

Now how Nieve do YOU look?

PS: Turkey is prodominantly Isalamic. I have a house there. Been there 3 times already this year, off there again in two weeks. Foo.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
You said it...

Now how Nieve do YOU look?

PS: Turkey is prodominantly Isalamic. I have a house there. Been there 3 times already this year, off there again in two weeks. Foo.
LOL, oh, how "nieve" I must look! You misspelled "naive", "predominantly" and "Islamic" in one post but I'm the one looking the fool!

So, I wrote out a half page for you to latch on eight of the last words. Listen, do you know how the code of laws and rights work in any civilized country? You are free to do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn't negatively affect another. Let's apply this concept.

1. Iraq considers the West and America in particular The Great Satan. Fine by us, we've been called worse. Must be why the entire world flocks to live in these countries. Sticks and stones...

2. Iraq senses economic opportunity by steamrolling through Kuwait and managing their immense oil resources as they wish. DING DING DING! Nuh uh, we can't have that. Allowing a hostile nation to control the #1 sought after resource in the world is NOT acceptable to ANYONE, hence a little UN resolution to bring their butts back in line. Remember that one?

3. This is done, but then p*ssyfoots like you cry, "Ohhhhh you big bad America, don't hurt the nice dictator who likes to invade neighbouring countries! I'm sure he's learned his lesson and stuff!" Being the terrible war-mongering country the US is, they consent although being just 100 km away from Baghdad at this point.

4. Occasional swats on the ass do not keep Iraq from keeping to what they agreed to - NOT BUILD STUFF MEANT TO KILL ALL OF US. This of course is declared a conspiracy by the US to allow them to continue killing Iraqi babies for fun and sport - soon to be broadcasted globally on ESPN2.

You see, the reality of the world is nobody cares what you do as long as it doesn't affect everyone else or is so grossly outside of acceptable morality that something must be done. I'm convinced today that people like you would let WWII happen all over again because "we don't have the right" to interfere down near Germany. What's it "our right" to go interfere between if Poland decides, oh hey, let's become part of Germany now...
 

alexruiz

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2001
2,836
556
126
Guys, I will try to make it simple and stay straight to the facts. No fanatism. I also suggest that in case someone has a question about history logs off and runs to the library. Finally, if you have the chance to check books or information form other places or countries, do it, that is helpful.

Be informed that I am a foreigner. It seems that what most of our fellow Americans learn in school is somewhat different to what the rest of the world learns (I am talking about history in this case)

I understand the true desire of the American people for freedom, and that is something I can witness myself (my wife is American). However, it is true also how INNOCENT most the Americans are and they believe blindly what their goverment say. Being patriotic is loving your country, but doesn't mean you have to believe and defend everything your goverment wants to do. Being patriotic means trying to make your contry a better place, even if that means criticizing your goverment. Don't take all the garbage that the goverment says.

Guys, what gives the USA the right to remove a goverment??? Just because they don't like it. Why????

A lot can be said about the possible threat, but remember, the view is different from the other side of the fence. REMEMBER IT.

I had the chance to read an article in an American newspaper talking about using nuclear weapons in other countries as "warning"..... That was totally sick, so if other countries have nuclear weapons they are "evil and a threat to civilization", but the USA can use them "as warning".... Where is the logic here?? Where is the "all people are created equal"???? Where is "defense of freedom"??

The American people are great, but their foreign policy is totally imperialist. Why the sick suppost to Israel??? Where is the "defense of freedom" against all the attrocities commited against the palestinians??? Israel has "weapons of mass destruction", and they surely would use them against their neighbors. Shouldn't they be labeled also as "a theat to freedom"???

Everything is about POWER and MONEY. All the USA foreign interventions are about power and money. Want an example??? Forget about Vietman, let's talk about Chile. If you don't know what happened, go and read about it. Chile elected in 1973 a socialist goverment lead by Salvador Allende. Because fo the socialist background, Allende wanted to expropiate the copper, Chile's main resource that was in the and in hands of ..... you guessed it. Obviously, the USA didn't want it, as the American corporations would have to pay for the rights to exploit the copper. USA started a war against Allende, lead by traitor Augusto Pinochet. Allende was killed, Pinochet took the power and guess what?? No payments needed to be made for the cooper usage!!

How bad was the change?? Well, more than 4 million people were assainated by the DICTATOR Pinochet while he stayed in power. His goverment was total terror!!! Did the public in the USA know about it??? I think they didn't, and you can confirm it by trying to find info about it.... the USA goverment prohibited the media to bring info about Chile. Pretty sad :(

Guys, my point is simple and is addressed to all the American on the boards: I know you believe in freedom, I know your feeling is sincere, I know you truly believe in that freedom..... Make your goverment think the same, make your goverment believe in freedom also, make your goverment respect the others, make your goverment value the freedom of others. You have the power to make it happen. Don't believe blindly what your goverment says!!! Don't support your goverment in totalitarian actions, say NO to imperalism. Be critical of the news. :(

Alex