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NIMBYS now kneecapping UC system

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
I have no issue putting a cap on property tax increases. I'm only opposed if you don't also apply those caps when the property changes ownership.
You need to drive off anybody of modest income living on land deemed desirable so you can create a tax base to fund and build the infrastructure to to support Towers of Babel.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
Let’s just start with you allowing people to add a floor or two. Sound good?
I think I mentioned the only property related issue I ever voted on or hat the opportunity to vote on was my no vote on 13. I realize that you enjoy making me out as callous to the needs of the homeless but I think what is really happening is that I am telling you that you are a dreamer whose opinions run smack into the fact that in the competitive system we live in which stresses only self interest, those who have homes don’t want their lifestyles ruined by sharing them with other people. People hate themselves and that creates a vacuum within that can never be filled. It is a matter of supply and demand. People want worldly things of the most desirable quality and because of their inner misery they can never have enough of them or share them with others. Happiness is rare to the self hater and thus looks to be depleted if shared.

The only way out is to awaken. I will see if I can find you a story I know that illustrates my point. I would not do it justice if put in my word.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
I think I mentioned the only property related issue I ever voted on or hat the opportunity to vote on was my no vote on 13. I realize that you enjoy making me out as callous to the needs of the homeless but I think what is really happening is that I am telling you that you are a dreamer whose opinions run smack into the fact that in the competitive system we live in which stresses only self interest, those who have homes don’t want their lifestyles ruined by sharing them with other people. People hate themselves and that creates a vacuum within that can never be filled. It is a matter of supply and demand. People want worldly things of the most desirable quality and because of their inner misery they can never have enough of them or share them with others. Happiness is rare to the self hater and thus looks to be depleted if shared.

The only way out is to awaken. I will see if I can find you a story I know that illustrates my point. I would not do it justice if put in my word.
Like I’ve said before you just don’t understand how people think. You project your own needs on others and it makes you embrace monstrous ideas where you try to force other people to be like you because you can’t understand why they wouldn’t want to be.

Honesty I hope you get the gift of introspection because what you have now is self important babble masquerading as it.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,901
34,007
136
Like I’ve said before you just don’t understand how people think. You project your own needs on others and it makes you embrace monstrous ideas where you try to force other people to be like you because you can’t understand why they wouldn’t want to be.

Honesty I hope you get the gift of introspection because what you have now is self important babble masquerading as it.
Oh, the irony!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
Oh, the irony!
I know you’re mad at me because I showed that you said a bunch of stupid things but I want to be clear that I’m not mad at you.

Think about this for a minute - you thought I was smart until the moment I disagreed with you. Think about that objectively. What conclusion do you draw?
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,901
34,007
136
I know you’re mad at me because I showed that you said a bunch of stupid things but I want to be clear that I’m not mad at you.

Think about this for a minute - you thought I was smart until the moment I disagreed with you. Think about that objectively. What conclusion do you draw?
I still think you're smart. I also still think you're a pretentious jackass. These aren't exclusive traits.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
I still think you're smart. I also still think you're a pretentious jackass. These aren't exclusive traits.
Oh I’m definitely a pretentious jackass, I don’t think that’s ever been in dispute. Doesn’t change the fact that your ideas in this thread are dumb.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
You can move and still have roots in a community. At least if moving to a new house in the community doesn't make your property taxes sky rocket. I am advocating policies that would allow people to move to a more suitable housing situation AND remain in the same community. Right now, the only option for a lot of people that want to move into more reasonable housing is to either just continue living in housing that isn't appropriate for that stage in life or leave the community entirely because they'll lose their preferred tax status.

To be clear you are proposing that millage rate be decreased as valuation goes up, but every one pays based on the current market value? I think that presents its own bag of worms, but could probably work as long as there were limits to revenue increases. I really am not arguing against that method, though. I am arguing against having no constraints on property tax growth at all. I think there is a middle ground between Prop 13 and property tax increasing directly proportionally to market increased.

But as it stands now, if someone can't afford the taxes on their house and has to move, more than likely they aren't just moving down the street. We have economic segregation in the vast majority of the country. So being priced out of your house means moving to somewhere cheaper, which will either mean downsizing (if that is an option in your community) or changing communities. We also need to remember every time you sell your house you are flushing at least 6-9% of the value down the toilet.

The way you want to maintain tax structures is right now leading to cities that can't get basic public servants like teachers, fire fighters, etc because they can't afford to live anywhere near the cities where they work. The problem is only going to get worse because the only teachers that can afford to live in these areas are the teachers that moved there decades ago and are living with the decreased tax rates. As these teachers retire, the new teachers can't afford to live there. Speaking of communities, this leads to police officers policing in areas where they aren't a part of the community, teachers teaching in areas where they aren't a part of the community, and the overall gentrification of communities.
The no-limits property tax scheme means that teachers that bought a house 10 years in an area that is now up and coming will have to sell their house and move because their tax bill is now as high as their salaries. Forget any new teachers moving in. The way to fix this issue is building more housing and requiring. And get rid of the insanity that is Prop 13.

Really, for the most part I think the only tax should be on income, get rid of sales tax and property taxes, both of which are insanely regressive and create market inefficiencies. Plus some usage fees/taxes.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Huh? No of course not, where would you get that idea?

I got that idea because you said it. I can agree that you don't want to disincentivize mobility, but I do disagree that we should take on tax policies that force it.

If anything you want to incentivize mobility so prop 13 is actively harmful.

I want to make it easier for people to move if they want to move. Things like prop 13 and rent control make it so that even people who want to move may feel it’s impossible because of tax or rent benefits. As another example my wife’s dad owns a five bedroom house in San Diego and their last kid moved out more than 10 years ago. They use at most two of the five bedrooms and the rest sit empty.

So now we have three empty bedrooms in a city desperate for housing because California decided to give a large, ongoing tax subsidy to someone worth well over $3 million while the streets are clogged with the homeless. As mect mentions they don’t want to move out of San Diego, they just want to move to a smaller, more manageable place. They never will though and the rest of the residents pay the price.
I've already said that Prop 13 is insane the way it is implemented, but there is middle ground. The flip side of your examples is the teacher/cop father and mother with 3 kids that bought a house that they could barely afford in 2010. The taxes have now doubled on it and they can no longer afford it, so the have to sell. Sure they get a "windfall" and double their original investment, 6-7% goes to closing fees, another chunk goes to moving, 1-2% goes to closing fees on a new house, so their 100% profit is now closer to 80%. But guess what every house in their area that is similar to theirs is just as much, so they have to move further way. Pulling the kids away from their schools and friends, and making the kids have less time with their parents due to longer commutes.

Similar with a retired person that isn't rich, leaving off SS and a little savings. Make them move and they might lose their entire network. I've sadly seen this happen with many seniors, in my case they did so willingly, but it ended up having a major negative affect on them.

Any benefit you give existing homeowners has to be balanced against creating perverse incentives. I literally never hear people in Oklahoma or Ohio saying "I can't move because my property tax would go way up." So it is clear there is a balance point.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
For those that fear "density", take a look at https://missingmiddlehousing.com/

Lots of options between single-family home on an oversized lot and a 5-story apartment building.
This is a really big deal. I've wanted to buy my mom a condo for years. But there are very few condos around at all, and basically zero that are single level. The only ones I've been able to find are 50 years old in poorly maintained buildings. When condos do come on the market they are more expensive than a SFH because there are so few of them.

That being said, I don't really think a random person in SFH PUD neighborhood should through up a condo complex on their lot. But zoning should encourage much more density, especially in transportation corridors.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
Back to the original post in this thread. It was discussed a little bit on today's Pivot Episode (podcast). The idea that locals can prevent a college from building housing on their own property is so insanely stupid it isn't even funny. That is state property, locals should have basically no say in it.

Several years ago Oklahoma State got a huge donation from T. Boone Pickens to create an "athletic village." Stupid in theory and stupid in execution. But they bought up like 60 acres of housing, nearly all near campus student rental houses and apartments and replaced it all with Sports Fields and parking lots. Stripped the city of all that property tax. And basically just held up a middle finger while using eminent domain. That is how Berkley should be able to do this.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
Like I’ve said before you just don’t understand how people think. You project your own needs on others and it makes you embrace monstrous ideas where you try to force other people to be like you because you can’t understand why they wouldn’t want to be.

Honesty I hope you get the gift of introspection because what you have now is self important babble masquerading as it.
I remember you posted that you would intervene in a suicide attempt by a young person based solely on your opinion of what is good for them even if you might refer to that opinion yourself as logically grounded at some level of reality. Still, you would intercede in an action that represented an intent you would willing override in favor of your own opinion. I don't see the difference in that from my own way of seeing things. I simply look at the level of conscious awareness you seem to posses regarding matters of the heart, namely what brings joy to the human heart and find your ideas lacking in feeling. I have tried to explain to you that in my opinion your world view is predicated on fixing symptoms of a disease you will not see much less even address. I attribute this to the fact that you do not know yourself. And while I may be mistaken in that opinion nothing about your words convince me otherwise. Having lost your kind of certainty I will never be able to get it back. If the joy of being I fell into long ago was a delusion, it is one that ended hopelessness and suffering. There is something about going from demented to satisfied that is kind of hard to deny was real.

The problem with your thinking, in my opinion regards the matter of limits. You started with, I forget now, hundreds of units and would up hoping for three. I see the matter differently. As long as an area of land is in high demand and lateral growth is blocked there is no where to go but up or down. And as long as the demand outpaces supply housing must go higher or deeper. And even with the best technology I can dream of, it strikes me that there are limits in either direction and when reached the problem remains with homelessness. Only now, if some sort of economic disaster strikes or robots do all of our work, the number of locals without jobs and potentially homeless would be astronomical. But what kind of life is it for kids who never experience the feeling of being alone in some kind of natural setting. All they will know is the same old same wherever they go a world of gigantic ant farms or hives.

Have you ever seen dystopian films of lives spent in endlessly in alternate reality. Hopefully they will get it so you won't be able to tell.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
This is a really big deal. I've wanted to buy my mom a condo for years. But there are very few condos around at all, and basically zero that are single level. The only ones I've been able to find are 50 years old in poorly maintained buildings. When condos do come on the market they are more expensive than a SFH because there are so few of them.

That being said, I don't really think a random person in SFH PUD neighborhood should through up a condo complex on their lot. But zoning should encourage much more density, especially in transportation corridors.
We have tons of that around here, we also have traffic that in the morning and evening take vastly longer to reach the freeways than it did before they were built. Now the air stinks at those hours. Water is also hundreds by-monthly.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
We have tons of that around here, we also have traffic that in the morning and evening take vastly longer to reach the freeways than it did before they were built. Now the air stinks at those hours. Water is also hundreds by-monthly.
Then push for better public transit and higher gas taxes to pay for it. Oh I guess block any new business growth so the city stops growing.

Water has historically been way too cheap, especially in dry areas. It has lead ro very distorted outcomes, like watering the desert to grew hay to send to Japan.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
Then push for better public transit and higher gas taxes to pay for it. Oh I guess block any new business growth so the city stops growing.

Water has historically been way too cheap, especially in dry areas. It has lead ro very distorted outcomes, like watering the desert to grew hay to send to Japan.
I’m putting together a convoy of trucks to block city hall access.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
I remember you posted that you would intervene in a suicide attempt by a young person based solely on your opinion of what is good for them even if you might refer to that opinion yourself as logically grounded at some level of reality. Still, you would intercede in an action that represented an intent you would willing override in favor of your own opinion. I don't see the difference in that from my own way of seeing things. I simply look at the level of conscious awareness you seem to posses regarding matters of the heart, namely what brings joy to the human heart and find your ideas lacking in feeling. I have tried to explain to you that in my opinion your world view is predicated on fixing symptoms of a disease you will not see much less even address. I attribute this to the fact that you do not know yourself. And while I may be mistaken in that opinion nothing about your words convince me otherwise. Having lost your kind of certainty I will never be able to get it back. If the joy of being I fell into long ago was a delusion, it is one that ended hopelessness and suffering. There is something about going from demented to satisfied that is kind of hard to deny was real.

The problem with your thinking, in my opinion regards the matter of limits. You started with, I forget now, hundreds of units and would up hoping for three. I see the matter differently. As long as an area of land is in high demand and lateral growth is blocked there is no where to go but up or down. And as long as the demand outpaces supply housing must go higher or deeper. And even with the best technology I can dream of, it strikes me that there are limits in either direction and when reached the problem remains with homelessness. Only now, if some sort of economic disaster strikes or robots do all of our work, the number of locals without jobs and potentially homeless would be astronomical. But what kind of life is it for kids who never experience the feeling of being alone in some kind of natural setting. All they will know is the same old same wherever they go a world of gigantic ant farms or hives.

Have you ever seen dystopian films of lives spent in endlessly in alternate reality. Hopefully they will get it so you won't be able to tell.
I think you misunderstand. In my opinion people should be able to build a tower as big as they want but in terms of solving the housing crisis in the near term all you really need in California is a modest increase in density to allow a few extra floors on every building. Sadly the NIMBYs refuse even that.

Regardless, this is just your latest excuse but I guess in many ways it reflects a similar level of motivated reasoning to climate deniers. For the longest time they said there was no problem or that fixing the problem was worse than doing nothing - after that all turned out to be wrong their final fallback position is the same as yours, fixing the problem is impossible anyway so we should do nothing.

The problem is very fixable, you just don’t want to do it because you prefer to force people to live in houses you approve of, even if that means them having no house at all.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,883
136
I got that idea because you said it. I can agree that you don't want to disincentivize mobility, but I do disagree that we should take on tax policies that force it.




I've already said that Prop 13 is insane the way it is implemented, but there is middle ground. The flip side of your examples is the teacher/cop father and mother with 3 kids that bought a house that they could barely afford in 2010. The taxes have now doubled on it and they can no longer afford it, so the have to sell. Sure they get a "windfall" and double their original investment, 6-7% goes to closing fees, another chunk goes to moving, 1-2% goes to closing fees on a new house, so their 100% profit is now closer to 80%. But guess what every house in their area that is similar to theirs is just as much, so they have to move further way. Pulling the kids away from their schools and friends, and making the kids have less time with their parents due to longer commutes.

Similar with a retired person that isn't rich, leaving off SS and a little savings. Make them move and they might lose their entire network. I've sadly seen this happen with many seniors, in my case they did so willingly, but it ended up having a major negative affect on them.

Any benefit you give existing homeowners has to be balanced against creating perverse incentives. I literally never hear people in Oklahoma or Ohio saying "I can't move because my property tax would go way up." So it is clear there is a balance point.

The teacher and cop that bought a house 12 years ago likely make more money now, much more than the increase in property tax but probably not enough more to be able to afford the home they currently live in if they bought it at market rates. So yea their property tax bill has gone up but they're still in a nicer area than they could afford if they purchased a home today.

How often do you actually think this would happen? Is this routinely happening all over the rest of the country? If so I don't really hear about it.
 
Last edited:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,752
6,766
126
I think you misunderstand. In my opinion people should be able to build a tower as big as they want but in terms of solving the housing crisis in the near term all you really need in California is a modest increase in density to allow a few extra floors on every building. Sadly the NIMBYs refuse even that.

Regardless, this is just your latest excuse but I guess in many ways it reflects a similar level of motivated reasoning to climate deniers. For the longest time they said there was no problem or that fixing the problem was worse than doing nothing - after that all turned out to be wrong their final fallback position is the same as yours, fixing the problem is impossible anyway so we should do nothing.

The problem is very fixable, you just don’t want to do it because you prefer to force people to live in houses you approve of, even if that means them having no house at all.
I understand you have the opinion that people should be able to build as high as they want and that the capacity to house many many more people in desirable areas should theoretically bring housing costs down. I am saying your solution is a solution within a context that is like putting a bandage on a cancer. At the moment you applie the bandage some gains could be said to have been had, but soon enough the treatment will prove to have failed.

How do I see this playing out….. First of all it will be resisted. Now what you have done with that, as I refer to it, fact of human psychology that inevitably manifests in a competitive system, has been what looks to me to have been an attempt to shoot the messenger, me, as if the message was not a description of what I see, but my personal opinion. The only opinion I was expressing is that the solution you propose flys in the face of reality, that reality being that ‘we of the system’ have been trained to be selfish as the proper road to success. You are up against human genius of self interest.

Now of course I am not terribly bothered by your criticism personally, because all of the things I think I see in others I only see because of that quality you have accused me of lacking, introspection. One of the sacred cows that I lost and that lead to much suffering was the realization that I was little if not selfish and that all of the negatives I could see in others I used as a means to feel better about myself. Surprise surprise.

Sadly just because I can see something about myself I wish were otherwise does not instantly change it. It just makes it a waste of effort to deny. And the reason recognition alone does not cure one of such issues is because their origin lies in unconscious repressed memories that are a bitch to bring to the surface. In short then, I am the monster you describe but it’s not news to me.

Also, not sadly the NIMBYs are like that, but naturally they are like that. And that sadness is caused by the frustration of wanting people to change what the system demands them to be instead of the changing the system that drives that behavior competition instead of cooperation, or socialism vs what is essentially interpersonal warfare.

Now aside from the problem of overcoming NIMBY resistance, there is the issue if it is wise. Aside from all of the selfishness involved is there anything worthy about their fight? I think there is. They perceive that low density living is better than being densely packed. You seem to see no value in that opinion but I do. The whole wonder of life in my opinion lies in how intimately one can experience the natural world. I believe this kind of feeling if manifestcould be called a peek experience. Like enlightenment the experience of the joy of being can’t be had by reading words, perhaps with exception of poetry, but that’s hot a thingi for me. As I consistently maintain their value is known only to those who know them and the force of the joy they produce erases any doubt of their value. In short, the solution you aspire to, density inside vast stretches of tall buildings is ruinous to the natural aspirations of children exposed to both lifestyles of life. I know, then, to put it bluntly, that you are the monster because you think wonderfully well but don’t feel what you should be thinking about. A home without, shall we say, ‘soul’ may appear to be better than none but it will only transfer the unnameable misery that haunts humanity out of touch with its true self. So from your perspective this makes me an egotistical know it all and you, and you asleep, from my perspective but with the potential to awaken.

So, everything you see in the world, the misery of homelessness and poverty is much more deeply systemic than just a scarcity of housing. The search for desirability is the search for self satisfaction within. The proper answer to that in my opinion is to know the hearts true desire and to cooperate in the creation of that. This is why the religious pray, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Your view, in my opinion, accepts the inevitability that desirability leading to increased housing costs can only be offset by increased building. I say the problem is much vaster, that the mess we are in is the product of the system we look anywhere else for fixing to avoid the real change we need. The problem is that in our system the way to win is to suppress any feelings of empathy for others.

Anyway enough, gotta go. But I don’t know why you don’t promote the obvious selfish answer to this. Tax land and not whatever property is on it and expand building heights to the moon. @Greenman will be building as high as he can overnight. But sell early to lock in a price as sale prices and rents are sure to fall. I think the profit from selling a few hundred condos should get me my yacht.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
The teacher and cop that bought a house 12 years ago likely make more money now, much more than the increase in property tax but probably not enough more to be able to afford the home they currently live in if they bought it at market rates. So yea their property tax bill has gone up but they're still in a nicer area than they could afford if they purchased a home today.

How often do you actually think this would happen? Is this routinely happening all over the rest of the country? If so I don't really hear about it.
Does the rest of the country double property value in 10 years? I seriously doubt most people's salaries doubled in that time frame. Most seniors have very little to no real income growth.

35 states and DC has some sort of limit on property tax growth. I'm assuming not having any type of limit in California is what directly lead to the passage of Prop 13, which like most legislation through state wide question has terrible flaws.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
55,389
136
I understand you have the opinion that people should be able to build as high as they want and that the capacity to house many many more people in desirable areas should theoretically bring housing costs down. I am saying your solution is a solution within a context that is like putting a bandage on a cancer. At the moment you applie the bandage some gains could be said to have been had, but soon enough the treatment will prove to have failed.

How do I see this playing out….. First of all it will be resisted. Now what you have done with that, as I refer to it, fact of human psychology that inevitably manifests in a competitive system, has been what looks to me to have been an attempt to shoot the messenger, me, as if the message was not a description of what I see, but my personal opinion. The only opinion I was expressing is that the solution you propose flys in the face of reality, that reality being that ‘we of the system’ have been trained to be selfish as the proper road to success. You are up against human genius of self interest.

Now of course I am not terribly bothered by your criticism personally, because all of the things I think I see in others I only see because of that quality you have accused me of lacking, introspection. One of the sacred cows that I lost and that lead to much suffering was the realization that I was little if not selfish and that all of the negatives I could see in others I used as a means to feel better about myself. Surprise surprise.

Sadly just because I can see something about myself I wish were otherwise does not instantly change it. It just makes it a waste of effort to deny. And the reason recognition alone does not cure one of such issues is because their origin lies in unconscious repressed memories that are a bitch to bring to the surface. In short then, I am the monster you describe but it’s not news to me.

Also, not sadly the NIMBYs are like that, but naturally they are like that. And that sadness is caused by the frustration of wanting people to change what the system demands them to be instead of the changing the system that drives that behavior competition instead of cooperation, or socialism vs what is essentially interpersonal warfare.

Now aside from the problem of overcoming NIMBY resistance, there is the issue if it is wise. Aside from all of the selfishness involved is there anything worthy about their fight? I think there is. They perceive that low density living is better than being densely packed. You seem to see no value in that opinion but I do. The whole wonder of life in my opinion lies in how intimately one can experience the natural world. I believe this kind of feeling if manifestcould be called a peek experience. Like enlightenment the experience of the joy of being can’t be had by reading words, perhaps with exception of poetry, but that’s hot a thingi for me. As I consistently maintain their value is known only to those who know them and the force of the joy they produce erases any doubt of their value. In short, the solution you aspire to, density inside vast stretches of tall buildings is ruinous to the natural aspirations of children exposed to both lifestyles of life. I know, then, to put it bluntly, that you are the monster because you think wonderfully well but don’t feel what you should be thinking about. A home without, shall we say, ‘soul’ may appear to be better than none but it will only transfer the unnameable misery that haunts humanity out of touch with its true self. So from your perspective this makes me an egotistical know it all and you, and you asleep, from my perspective but with the potential to awaken.

So, everything you see in the world, the misery of homelessness and poverty is much more deeply systemic than just a scarcity of housing. The search for desirability is the search for self satisfaction within. The proper answer to that in my opinion is to know the hearts true desire and to cooperate in the creation of that. This is why the religious pray, on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Your view, in my opinion, accepts the inevitability that desirability leading to increased housing costs can only be offset by increased building. I say the problem is much vaster, that the mess we are in is the product of the system we look anywhere else for fixing to avoid the real change we need. The problem is that in our system the way to win is to suppress any feelings of empathy for others.

Anyway enough, gotta go. But I don’t know why you don’t promote the obvious selfish answer to this. Tax land and not whatever property is on it and expand building heights to the moon. @Greenman will be building as high as he can overnight. But sell early to lock in a price as sale prices and rents are sure to fall. I think the profit from selling a few hundred condos should get me my yacht.
Brevity is the soul of wit.

After all this you still mischaracterize my opinion, presumably because you have no answer. If people like to live in low density under my plan they are free to do so!

Remember, all I’m asking you to do is support people living in whatever kind of house they prefer - your position is they must be forced to live in a way you approve of. I don’t think it’s selfishness so much as a desire to control and dominate others. For their own good of course
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,901
34,007
136
Brevity is the soul of wit.

After all this you still mischaracterize my opinion, presumably because you have no answer. If people like to live in low density under my plan they are free to do so!
No, they're not. Under your plan, people would have to move every time someone decided to dump a building project next door. You conveniently dismiss the externalities that drove people to adopting zoning in the first place. It didn't occur in a vacuum.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,984
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Does the rest of the country double property value in 10 years? I seriously doubt most people's salaries doubled in that time frame. Most seniors have very little to no real income growth.
But you don’t need their salaries to double in that time frame, they only need to increase them by the percentage of their salary property tax payments represent. Let’s say their property taxes doubled from $500 to $1000 a month over the last 10 years. To cover that change they would need about a $10,000 a year raise over that time - seems very reasonable, no?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,255
136
But you don’t need their salaries to double in that time frame, they only need to increase them by the percentage of their salary property tax payments represent. Let’s say their property taxes doubled from $500 to $1000 a month over the last 10 years. To cover that change they would need about a $10,000 a year raise over that time - seems very reasonable, no?
If they have no growth in any other expenses, pay no taxes on that money, and have no desire to gain standard of living as their income increases.

Gotta say, you are way too smart for that simplistic of an analysis.