NIMBYS now kneecapping UC system

[dank69]

I keep telling him that but he insists that the interests of the ultra wealthy trump everyone elses'.

You know how conservatives on here project? Yeah, this is just like that. You seem to be under the impression that when people are able to make money doing something it automatically makes that thing bad.

 

[Moonbeam]

If everyone that had kids needed to have a suburban home the sprawl and inefficiency in this country would be insane and be non-functional. It's already terrible. I mean it's not even remotely realistic. This is just not how things work.

I have no issue that kids being close to nature can be good. But being in non-diverse cookie cutter suburban neighborhoods isn't all that great for plenty of kids either. I grew up ignorant in many ways being stuck in a white middle class suburban single family town with just a few small apartment complexes. As soon as I could drive and turned 18, I left the suburbs and tried to be there as least as possible. So do many others. It's not so one size fits all as you say.

But at least you admit - you want to FORCE your way of life onto everyone. While I disagree with fskim saying there should be virtually no zoning, I believe there should be far less restrictive zoning, but it should be planned - he is nowhere near as extreme as you are. He is just saying people can do with their land as they want. You are saying - THIS iS HOW EVERYONE MUST LIVE TO START THEIR LIVES.

You are a dictator.

If everyone that had kids needed to have a suburban home the sprawl and inefficiency in this country would be insane and be non-functional. It's already terrible. I mean it's not even remotely realistic. This is just not how things work.

I have no issue that kids being close to nature can be good. But being in non-diverse cookie cutter suburban neighborhoods isn't all that great for plenty of kids either. I grew up ignorant in many ways being stuck in a white middle class suburban single family town with just a few small apartment complexes. As soon as I could drive and turned 18, I left the suburbs and tried to be there as least as possible. So do many others. It's not so one size fits all as you say.

But at least you admit - you want to FORCE your way of life onto everyone. While I disagree with fskim saying there should be virtually no zoning, I believe there should be far less restrictive zoning, but it should be planned - he is nowhere near as extreme as you are. He is just saying people can do with their land as they want. You are saying - THIS iS HOW EVERYONE MUST LIVE TO START THEIR LIVES.

You are a dictator.

i said I am subject to zoning laws and have no power to change them. I can’t dictate anything. I find your charge to be ridiculous.

if there is any force I have in suggesting that eliminating prop 13 and driving older poorer people out of their homes so wealthier people can move in would be the moral force of truth that might resonate in anybody agreeing with me.

Because I value my opinion for reasons that do not resonate with you and because I feel I also know why, means only that I can and will defend my position. That is not forcing you to do anything. You have already said a little more room in the form of personal space would be nice. We are just arguing over how much is ideal. We, or I am not saying you shouldn’t have jazz locally.

 

[MrSquished]

i said I am subject to zoning laws and have no power to change them. I can’t dictate anything. I find your charge to be ridiculous.

if there is any force I have in suggesting that eliminating prop 13 and driving older poorer people out of their homes so wealthier people can move in would be the moral force of truth that might resonate in anybody agreeing with me.

Because I value my opinion for reasons that do not resonate with you and because I feel I also know why, means only that I can and will defend my position. That is not forcing you to do anything. You have already said a little more room in the form of personal space would be nice. We are just arguing over how much is ideal. We, or I am not saying you shouldn’t have jazz locally.

Ummm I'm talking about how you feel that cities are no way to live, nor where children should grow up either. And that is justification for your support of anything you feel make make things that have any type of density possible to build.

 

[Moonbeam]

Ummm I'm talking about how you feel that cities are no way to live, nor where children should grow up either. And that is justification for your support of anything you feel make make things that have any type of density possible to build.

If what you are saying is that I feel children have the best chance of growing up not identifying as separate from the world around them when that world around them is the natural world of beauty to which our genetic code is adapted then when that separate feeling is lost by an experience of awe and wonder at the beauty of that world, then yes I believe the more a child can experience contact with the natural world as he grows up the greater his likelihood of experiencing his or her self as the universe itself. We talk of the Garden of Eden because it is a metaphor that speaks to our genes. People are malleable and able to survive on erzats but that will never fulfill the deepest of the hearts desire. You would have to have been a seeker to know this, someone for whom the pea under the 39th mattress was intolerable, somebody who couldn't sleep easily.

If that is what you hear me saying then yes, I would not support a world in which this were not possible for all children to experience. You have compensated for this loss by creating a prison within a prison called a zoo. That is where all life that survives is headed. A cryo-lab full of fetuses and seeds.

There are better ways to build a future than becoming an ant colony. Robotics, distributive manufacturing, vacuum tunnel transportation, 3D printing, and the scientific application of psychological knowledge to redesign culture and the environment are just a few things that come to mind. Cities are like giants. The bigger they are the harder they will fall.

I see what I believe to be true and what I believe is true you do not like. I think you are perfectly normal to feel the way you do but for the fact that what is normal is only normal in a sick system. I reject the system and reject solutions that tinker with symptoms and not the system itself. But while you man not be fighting as I would the system itself, I am as trapped in it as you are. I say we change it and I push that because I see it as life affirming.

 

[Moonbeam]

You know how conservatives on here project? Yeah, this is just like that. You seem to be under the impression that when people are able to make money doing something it automatically makes that thing bad.

Is that a straw man? He said, "I keep telling him that but he insists that the interests of the ultra wealthy trump everyone elses'." How does that sound like or remotely suggest he is under the impression that when people are able to make money doing something it automatically makes that thing bad. He was talking about serving the interests of the rich not making money is bad.

 

[dank69]

Is that a straw man? He said, "I keep telling him that but he insists that the interests of the ultra wealthy trump everyone elses'." How does that sound like or remotely suggest he is under the impression that when people are able to make money doing something it automatically makes that thing bad. He was talking about serving the interests of the rich not making money is bad.

No, it is he who is attacking a straw man. Fskimo has clearly stated that he opposes these zoning laws because it leads to more homelessness. IronWing has said repeatedly that loosening or removing these zoning laws helps the wealthy and THAT is why Fskimo supports this policy. Clearly the people that get affordable homes are part of "everyone else."

My accusation is not a straw man. If you disagree, please start by telling me the difference between making money and serving the interests of the rich. After all, the interests of the rich colloquially means helping them make more money.

I have been saying this for a long time, that there are two major categories of corruption. Corruption where you make money in exchange for hurting most people and corruption where you position yourself to make money off policies that generally help most people.

The biggest problem with bothsiders is that they think both these forms of corruption are equally harmful. That is why we find ourselves where we are today, with a government that gives us almost nothing in return for our taxes compared to every other major nation.

Now, I know IronWing is far from a bothsider, but on this issue, you and he are making the same mistake IMO. Yes, developers will make more money, but people also get better and cheaper housing, so people making money isn't as bad as doing nothing. This is why I said what I said to him. He is making the argument that helping people isn't worth it if rich people make money.

Now, you are both also making the argument that it hurts people like you. So fucking what? Sorry to be harsh, but you don't seem to see you are making the exact same argument as people who don't want higher taxes for things like healthcare and tuition and and and...

On top of that, you vastly overstate the harm to people like you. How about you run the math on your situation and state clearly (and honestly!) what a worst case scenario would be for you specifically. How much tax do you pay now? How much tax would you have to pay if you didn't have laws preventing you from paying your fair share? What is the maximum height and density your area would support assuming no zoning restrictions? How long would it take for everyone to develop up to the point that you could no longer tolerate living in your home? Until you answer these questions fairly accurately, your arguments are just fluff. They are the very definition of fuck you got mine.

I'd be willing to bet if all zoning laws in your area went away your area wouldn't substantially change until long after you and I are dead. I'd also be willing to bet if your tax laws were changed your fair share would not be as crushing as you claim, and probably just be an inconvenience. Feel free to post up the numbers proving me wrong though.

 

[Paratus]

@fskimospy saw this and thought of you.

 

[Moonbeam]

Since everybody who has something in a competitive society will protect it even if they are called clowns by others who feel those efforts make such people evil, generally those who are cut off from having a stake in the game but want in, or intellectual idealistic dreamers, who turn a blind eye to human nature and can effect change only when society in general out of a refusal to deal with the root of the problem because they will address only the symptoms of a diseased system and not the disease itself, perhaps some other solution to ‘the supply and demand ever increasing density’ could be found.

One answer could be to pass legislation that requires the wage of people who work for a living to be tied to the local housing costs.

This, I would think would make desirable areas to live very undesirable very quickly trafficand quickly drop rents and the cost of buying.and spur massive development elsewhere. The law could further be structured so as to encourage industrial developments to include on site accommodations to reduce commuting to work.

The evacuation of desirable areas of density still plagued by homelessness would have lots of vacated units for cities to use to service them.

 

[fskimospy]

Since everybody who has something in a competitive society will protect it even if they are called clowns by others who feel those efforts make such people evil, generally those who are cut off from having a stake in the game but want in, or intellectual idealistic dreamers, who turn a blind eye to human nature and can effect change only when society in general out of a refusal to deal with the root of the problem because they will address only the symptoms of a diseased system and not the disease itself, perhaps some other solution to ‘the supply and demand ever increasing density’ could be found.

One answer could be to pass legislation that requires the wage of people who work for a living to be tied to the local housing costs.

This, I would think would make desirable areas to live very undesirable very quickly trafficand quickly drop rents and the cost of buying.and spur massive development elsewhere. The law could further be structured so as to encourage industrial developments to include on site accommodations to reduce commuting to work.

The evacuation of desirable areas of density still plagued by homelessness would have lots of vacated units for cities to use to service them.

I have an idea, instead of a Khmer Rouge 2.0 mass displacement into the countryside let’s just let people build more houses if they want to.

 

[brycejones]

Since everybody who has something in a competitive society will protect it even if they are called clowns by others who feel those efforts make such people evil, generally those who are cut off from having a stake in the game but want in, or intellectual idealistic dreamers, who turn a blind eye to human nature and can effect change only when society in general out of a refusal to deal with the root of the problem because they will address only the symptoms of a diseased system and not the disease itself, perhaps some other solution to ‘the supply and demand ever increasing density’ could be found.

One answer could be to pass legislation that requires the wage of people who work for a living to be tied to the local housing costs.

This, I would think would make desirable areas to live very undesirable very quickly trafficand quickly drop rents and the cost of buying.and spur massive development elsewhere. The law could further be structured so as to encourage industrial developments to include on site accommodations to reduce commuting to work.

The evacuation of desirable areas of density still plagued by homelessness would have lots of vacated units for cities to use to service them.

Is this your natural state or are there chemical influences.