NFSW

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: cronos
this is what happened when the seller do not give heat until the buyer gives heat first. i think it's totally wrong. as a buyer my responsibility is to pay, that's all. and the seller should have immediately left me my heat as soon as he gets my money.

sadly, this is a common practice and almost everybody does it. i don't. i gave heat as soon as i got the payment. it's the most logical thing to do for me.

I don't leave heat until the deal is done. I evaluate the deal as a whole and evaluate the buyer at that time. I don't leave positive just because he paid. There is more to a deal than that. Thankfully...I don't think I've ever had to leave a negative eval as I haven't had any serious issues...at least not on here. Ebay, etc. is another story.

if the buyer has to PAY first than the seller should leave HEAT first.

in this case the seller left heat AFTER the buyer.

regardless of the fact that both seller and buyer overreacted in this case.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: cronos
this is what happened when the seller do not give heat until the buyer gives heat first. i think it's totally wrong. as a buyer my responsibility is to pay, that's all. and the seller should have immediately left me my heat as soon as he gets my money.

sadly, this is a common practice and almost everybody does it. i don't. i gave heat as soon as i got the payment. it's the most logical thing to do for me.

I don't leave heat until the deal is done. I evaluate the deal as a whole and evaluate the buyer at that time. I don't leave positive just because he paid. There is more to a deal than that. Thankfully...I don't think I've ever had to leave a negative eval as I haven't had any serious issues...at least not on here. Ebay, etc. is another story.

if the buyer has to PAY first than the seller should leave HEAT first.

in this case the seller left heat AFTER the buyer.

regardless of the fact that both seller and buyer overreacted in this case.

Yeah they did. I really don't care who leaves heat first. But I would not leave heat until the deal is finished in my mind (EG. my buyer has paid, recieved item and is happy with it).

 

[cronos]

Originally posted by: John

Originally posted by: cronos

Originally posted by: xinco
So, the seller is only allowed to grade you on whether you paid or not?

imo:

yes, absolutely. that's exactly what heatware about buyer is about.

the OP made a mistake by not trying to resolve it directly with the seller first and hastily left a long comment saying that he was disappointed. he might think that since it's a positive heat anyway, then it should not damage the seller's reputation (the fact is: it doesn't). of course it's a mistake, but it's understandable.

the seller, however, left a neutral heat to retalliate to the OP's positive heat, simply because he didn't like the way the comments were written. i think that's ridiculous, unacceptable, and not within the spirit of heatware as a feedback system.

cronos, the entire deal as a whole should be evaluated.

that may be true, but the heat received itself should *not* be part of 'the whole deal', or else it's missing the point. at least from my understanding of the feedback system, where 'retaliatory' heat is not acceptable.

imo, assuming both parties are well intentioned, paying is the buyer's only responsibility. after that the ball is in the seller's court (assuming the buyer pays first).

like i said, sadly almost everybody do it so everybody expect this to happen. i might be the only one with this opinion and it's possible that the whole internet trading world think otherwise, but i still feel that the only responsibility of the buyer is pay. as soon as the seller receives the payment, then the buyer deserves his/her heat. that's what i believe and that's what i practiced the several times i am selling.

(of course if the seller ship first then it should be exactly the opposite, as soon as the buyer receives the item in its advertised condition, the seller deserves his/her heat)

in a buyer's perspective (as a frequent buyer who always pay first and only several times selling), i feel like i've been put into a huge disadvantage many times when the seller intentionally waited to give me my well deserved heat (paypal sent and received in minutes after the deal was done), while he/she can choose to wait until 'the entire deal can be evaluated' which basically mean not only i had to pay first, i had to wait until i received the item, and then i had to give heat first as well.

i think that's not fair and is not within the spirit of the feedback system. in the end it will discourage traders (buyers or sellers, whoever ship/pay first) to give feedbacks based on actual experience.

back to this particular case: again, i don't think the OP is not without mistake at all. a trader should always contact the other trader first when there is problem and not just leave 'bad' heat like that. but if you look back to it, the facts are:

1. the items scratched while the seller specifically said that it isn't
2. the seller gets positive heat
3. the buyer gets neutral heat

so to me it's just hard to not put the blame on the seller also in this case. he gives neutral heat solely because of the positive heat that he received, simply because he didn't like the comment in it. how fair is that?

 

[OdiN]

Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

In that situation the buyer is a TROLL. Totally different, as it is not a deal.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: OdiN
Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

In that situation the buyer is a TROLL. Totally different, as it is not a deal.

So....trolls don't deserve negative heat?

Hacp -

You've been given a lot of good advice here....I think that AT LEAST you must admit that you should have contacted him first before posting heat and communicated with him. Then at that point...post the heat as you feel is necessary. But if someone retaliates - PM Heat23, etc. Don't post threads about them in FS/T and that type of thing - it reflects poorly on you. The only time you should post in FS/T about someone is when you paid and didn't get the item, it's extremely late, excuses are given - then post ONLY asking that you please get the item..no name calling, etc. Post facts and leave it at that. If you still get no resolution...then you can probably post a troll thread...PM the person and warn them, etc. But if they still don't follow through post their username and leave negative heat so people know to put them on their DNT lists.

If you got the item and were not happy and the seller refuses to return it and is being an ass that's also a good enough reason to post something in FS/T - but not in a flaming matter. Just post facts...and ask that they please take care of the issue. PM the person a link to the thread...no need to identify them unless after that they are still refusing - report to trollhunters and whatnot.

So...scratches or not or whatever in the very least you did not do enough communication with the seller before posting heat, and after that made some bad decisions to post in FS/T. Good and thorough communication is critical. Remember that.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: OdiN
Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

In that situation the buyer is a TROLL. Totally different, as it is not a deal.

So....trolls don't deserve negative heat?

Hacp -

You've been given a lot of good advice here....I think that AT LEAST you must admit that you should have contacted him first before posting heat and communicated with him. Then at that point...post the heat as you feel is necessary. But if someone retaliates - PM Heat23, etc. Don't post threads about them in FS/T and that type of thing - it reflects poorly on you. The only time you should post in FS/T about someone is when you paid and didn't get the item, it's extremely late, excuses are given - then post ONLY asking that you please get the item..no name calling, etc. Post facts and leave it at that. If you still get no resolution...then you can probably post a troll thread...PM the person and warn them, etc. But if they still don't follow through post their username and leave negative heat so people know to put them on their DNT lists.

If you got the item and were not happy and the seller refuses to return it and is being an ass that's also a good enough reason to post something in FS/T - but not in a flaming matter. Just post facts...and ask that they please take care of the issue. PM the person a link to the thread...no need to identify them unless after that they are still refusing - report to trollhunters and whatnot.

So...scratches or not or whatever in the very least you did not do enough communication with the seller before posting heat, and after that made some bad decisions to post in FS/T. Good and thorough communication is critical. Remember that.

As I said, in that situation you just described, the BUYer is a troll and deservs negative heat. He will get negative heat. Trolling is not "deal".

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: OdiN
Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

In that situation the buyer is a TROLL. Totally different, as it is not a deal.

So....trolls don't deserve negative heat?

Hacp -

You've been given a lot of good advice here....I think that AT LEAST you must admit that you should have contacted him first before posting heat and communicated with him. Then at that point...post the heat as you feel is necessary. But if someone retaliates - PM Heat23, etc. Don't post threads about them in FS/T and that type of thing - it reflects poorly on you. The only time you should post in FS/T about someone is when you paid and didn't get the item, it's extremely late, excuses are given - then post ONLY asking that you please get the item..no name calling, etc. Post facts and leave it at that. If you still get no resolution...then you can probably post a troll thread...PM the person and warn them, etc. But if they still don't follow through post their username and leave negative heat so people know to put them on their DNT lists.

If you got the item and were not happy and the seller refuses to return it and is being an ass that's also a good enough reason to post something in FS/T - but not in a flaming matter. Just post facts...and ask that they please take care of the issue. PM the person a link to the thread...no need to identify them unless after that they are still refusing - report to trollhunters and whatnot.

So...scratches or not or whatever in the very least you did not do enough communication with the seller before posting heat, and after that made some bad decisions to post in FS/T. Good and thorough communication is critical. Remember that.

As I said, in that situation you just described, the BUYer is a troll and deservs negative heat. He will get negative heat. Trolling is not "deal".

Which is why I don't think heat should be left until the deal is complete. I don't leave it right when payment is received for this reason. If my buyer acts inappropriately after getting the item I would note that in heat...even if payment was prompt the attitude and manner in which the buyer conducts himself AFTER that point is also important.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: OdiN
Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

In that situation the buyer is a TROLL. Totally different, as it is not a deal.

So....trolls don't deserve negative heat?

Hacp -

You've been given a lot of good advice here....I think that AT LEAST you must admit that you should have contacted him first before posting heat and communicated with him. Then at that point...post the heat as you feel is necessary. But if someone retaliates - PM Heat23, etc. Don't post threads about them in FS/T and that type of thing - it reflects poorly on you. The only time you should post in FS/T about someone is when you paid and didn't get the item, it's extremely late, excuses are given - then post ONLY asking that you please get the item..no name calling, etc. Post facts and leave it at that. If you still get no resolution...then you can probably post a troll thread...PM the person and warn them, etc. But if they still don't follow through post their username and leave negative heat so people know to put them on their DNT lists.

If you got the item and were not happy and the seller refuses to return it and is being an ass that's also a good enough reason to post something in FS/T - but not in a flaming matter. Just post facts...and ask that they please take care of the issue. PM the person a link to the thread...no need to identify them unless after that they are still refusing - report to trollhunters and whatnot.

So...scratches or not or whatever in the very least you did not do enough communication with the seller before posting heat, and after that made some bad decisions to post in FS/T. Good and thorough communication is critical. Remember that.

As I said, in that situation you just described, the BUYer is a troll and deservs negative heat. He will get negative heat. Trolling is not "deal".

Which is why I don't think heat should be left until the deal is complete. I don't leave it right when payment is received for this reason. If my buyer acts inappropriately after getting the item I would note that in heat...even if payment was prompt the attitude and manner in which the buyer conducts himself AFTER that point is also important.

That situation is not a "deal" and obviously heatware will accept a deletion of the positive eval and you can post a negative one in the meantime. If you troll someone, and they respond to you in a hostile manner, does it give you the right to post negative heat for them because of their launguage used?

 

[Hacp]

Also, Odin, what would you do in the situation I described earlier?


What if someone sells a PSP for 100 bucks, and tells you he can't see any dead pixels when staring hard for 30 secs. Turns out theres 5 on the corners. You are happy with your deal, but theres still the dead pixels. How would you work it out with the seller? Would you demand a refund and return the PSP and cancel a great deal because of five dead pixels that the Seller misinformed you about? I would keep the PSP and mention the inconsistancy in the heatware.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Also, Odin, what would you do in the situation I described earlier?


What if someone sells a PSP for 100 bucks, and tells you he can't see any dead pixels when staring hard for 30 secs. Turns out theres 5 on the corners. You are happy with your deal, but theres still the dead pixels. How would you work it out with the seller? Would you demand a refund and return the PSP and cancel a great deal because of five dead pixels that the Seller misinformed you about? I would keep the PSP and mention the inconsistancy in the heatware.

Well personally I would demand a refund + my shipping cost because I hate dead pixels. If he apologizes and refunds without a hassle and has a good standing in heat then I would just leave it at that. I wouldn't post anything...because maybe he just didn't see them. I would believe that as I am very picky about my display devices and other people are not. However...I would expect him to pay for shipping back as the item was not described properly - hi missed it - his bad - he can eat the shipping costs.

If the pixels didn't bother me then I probably wouldn't have even asked if it had them and gone on his item description in the post. If I was happy with the item and the service then I'd give a positive eval.

However...if he had other problems in heat with the same type of thing then he'd probably get a neutral heat from me even if I returned it for a refund or I wouldn't have purchased from him in the first place.

I realize that I'm very particular about things...and really I don't buy much used stuff. I'm the type that if I purchase something - I buy it new and I buy something that is worth spending money on. If I need something...say a 27" TV or something. I wouldn't go and buy the cheapest 27" I could find. I would look at a Sony or something with a name behind it that I trust....even if it costs more. I appreciate quality and am willing to spend the money to get quality. If I can't afford the quality item...I probably don't really need it in the first place.

 

[cronos]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Cronos -

I think the whole deal should be evaluated. Think about this:

If you pay me and I leave heat immediately, but then you get the item, said it didn't work and returned an identical item (but not the working one I sent) to me for a refund...that would deserve negative heat. That's basically defrauding someone. I've seen it happen...hence why I record serial numbers and things on more expensive items.

But I would have already left positive heat since you paid - heat that you don't deserve. Sure you paid on time...but so what? In that situation it doesn't matter.

i was going to say:

"i agree with your words 'the whole deal should be evaluated'. what i don't agree with the seller in this thread is that he included the heat that he received from the OP as part of the whole evaluation (a positive heat with 'grade B' comment) and took that into his consideration of giving heat back (a neutral heat in retaliation). heat only being left after you evaluate the whole deal? yes. but the heat itself should not be a part of it. this practice discourages people from leaving an honest heat and encourages people to play it safe from fear of retaliation."

but then i double checked the OP's heat to make sure and apparently the neutral heat from the seller has been erased by heatware. so my point was moot

i just want to say that i am pleased with the way heatware dealt with this.

Edit: some typos