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Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,776
0
76
It isn't all about following rules? I mean... the DC rules are far fewer than I had expected, even based on Perknose's description of it. I've said it before, but it appears to be nothing more than a polite and potentially troll free version of P&N. Serious as opposed to OT spam fest.

If you take the (extra) step and think of it as a debate club - then there's likely no way you'll run foul of the rules. If it is not your forte to make logical arguments, or back them up, then feel free to stay in this... purgatory where trolls run wild.

I'll admit... I've mostly posted in P&N. I think it's a sense of familiarity more than anything else. The (sense of) formality in the DC forum has also kept me from just posting anything that comes to mind - as is oft the case here. So while I've not posted much in DC, I at least respect the notion and do not make such disrespectful claims as you are making against it.

As a "Right Winger" I do not feel threatened by it or by Charles. Though I am disappointed it does not enjoy more participation, as a P&N with a "no spam" / "no insult" rule is needed around here. Well we've got one and I'm happy with that. You don't need to make this extra leap of seemingly thinking that the moderators are out to get you, or filtering political message. I'm sure they'll oppose people's views, we all do - that's the point of political discussion - but I don't see them moderating political views. The DC forum (thus far) is to moderate tone. It is less than likely that you'll face moderation if you simply keep a civil tone and follow a logical debate.

It's a shame that you feel differently.
Well when you're in a forum where you get banned for questioning the mods and they participate in the forum it makes discussing things with them pretty stupid. If you're wrong and they don't like you then it is vacation time. I hope this isn't seen as a call-out against the mods, I'm just explaining why I would never go to that forum and I regularly step out of conversation in here when mods get involved.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
4
0
Well when you're in a forum where you get banned for questioning the mods and they participate in the forum it makes discussing things with them pretty stupid. If you're wrong and they don't like you then it is vacation time. I hope this isn't seen as a call-out against the mods, I'm just explaining why I would never go to that forum and I regularly step out of conversation in here when mods get involved.
At present, there have only been one member that has stepped out of line;

It seems that people understand what the rules are and chose to be civilized within there.

That seems to be a decent track record.
People understand that this DC is a place where you should check your egos at the door
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
Well when you're in a forum where you get banned for questioning the mods and they participate in the forum it makes discussing things with them pretty stupid. If you're wrong and they don't like you then it is vacation time. I hope this isn't seen as a call-out against the mods, I'm just explaining why I would never go to that forum and I regularly step out of conversation in here when mods get involved.
He was not banned for questioning the mods.

He was banned for repeatedly removing moderator comments from his post, which is against the rules everywhere in the ATF.

But if it makes you feel better, I'll be posting there less from now on. I have been posting a lot of threads trying to seed discussion, but since I do have a strong personality, I've been concerned that I might be "too visible".

The real question is whether others will post more if I post less. So far the DC is not really thriving, because a lot of people who said they wanted it don't really use it. Seems that most people are more interested in bickering and flaming and ranting than having reasonable discussion.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,491
2,994
126
Mod call outs are where you discuss them being moderators, or discuss any actions they have taken. Such topics are for Moderator Discussion. There's no need to feel intimidated discussing a political topic with them. Just don't switch the subject to them.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,776
0
76
Mod call outs are where you discuss them being moderators, or discuss any actions they have taken. Such topics are for Moderator Discussion. There's no need to feel intimidated discussing a political topic with them. Just don't switch the subject to them.
I feel intimidated discussing computer memory with them, I feel downright threatened discussing politics at this point. I will still do it because I am an American and believe in my 1st Amendment Right, but that doesn't change the fact that everytime I post I worry about if it will be my last post on AT.


He was not banned for questioning the mods.

He was banned for repeatedly removing moderator comments from his post, which is against the rules everywhere in the ATF.
Are you talking about me ^^^^? Or Dave? I know I was definitely banned for questioning the mods. No offense.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
Are you talking about me ^^^^? Or Dave? I know I was definitely banned for questioning the mods. No offense.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Since just yesterday we actually had the first incident in the DC since its inception that required disciplinary action, I thought that was what you were referring to.

I don't know anything about what happened to you, so I can't comment on that.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,057
61
91
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Since just yesterday we actually had the first incident in the DC since its inception that required disciplinary action, I thought that was what you were referring to.

I don't know anything about what happened to you, so I can't comment on that.
The whole forum needs disciplinary action. Or renamed the nuthouse.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,489
3,250
126
The real question is whether others will post more if I post less. So far the DC is not really thriving, because a lot of people who said they wanted it don't really use it. Seems that most people are more interested in bickering and flaming and ranting than having reasonable discussion.
As I posted elsewhere, I wanted to use it but you made it pretty clear to me that I was just the kind of poster you didn't want there. I disagree with your opinion, but because it turned out that you moderate there, I didn't ask to join to honor your wishes. Who wants to join a place where you are told you are unwelcome and poke the eye of that person by showing up there. I have also gotten PM to ask for my ideas on what they posted there. It would have been nice to be able to reply in their thread.

Somebody asked a scorpion why he wasn't seen in winter and he answered, "What is it about the reception I get in summer that would make me want to appear in the winter too." A saying.

Another saying: The victim may die of snake bite before the serum arrives from Iraq.

Why Iraq, I am not sure. Perhaps once a great sage lived there. Perhaps in Arabic it's a code for something.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
The whole forum needs disciplinary action. Or renamed the nuthouse.
Now there's a useful contribution.

As I posted elsewhere, I wanted to use it but you made it pretty clear to me that I was just the kind of poster you didn't want there.
Belonging or not is a function of behavior, not personality. You're capable of excellent posts, and they'd be most welcome in the DC. But some of the other stuff doesn't belong there, and I think you're smart enough to know what's what. So the choice is yours.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,631
2,154
126
He was not banned for questioning the mods.

He was banned for repeatedly removing moderator comments from his post, which is against the rules everywhere in the ATF.

But if it makes you feel better, I'll be posting there less from now on. I have been posting a lot of threads trying to seed discussion, but since I do have a strong personality, I've been concerned that I might be "too visible".

The real question is whether others will post more if I post less. So far the DC is not really thriving, because a lot of people who said they wanted it don't really use it. Seems that most people are more interested in bickering and flaming and ranting than having reasonable discussion.
The issue I have with DC isn't that you post too much, it's that it feels very authoritarian. It started with members having to request access, and is reflected in the posting requirements. The "tight ship" the mods wanted feels like a tax audit. It also appears to have a distinctly left leaning feel to it.
Obviously, it's not an inviting forum, or more people would use it. The only question is, will it be fixed or abandoned?
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,057
61
91
Now there's a useful contribution.
Oh cry me a river. These forums were started as a fun gathering place for techies of all ages. Creating P&N was ridiculous when it happened years ago and the forum has been a mess since. Going one step further is even more comical.

Enjoy the old mans club that you're creating. Let's also be sure to not hurt anyone's feelings and encourage trolling.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
Creating P&N was ridiculous when it happened years ago and the forum has been a mess since. Going one step further is even more comical.

Enjoy the old mans club that you're creating. Let's also be sure to not hurt anyone's feelings and encourage trolling.
Your post makes absolutely no sense. You complain that P&N is a "mess" and simultaneously make fun of a room that was created as a place to allow reasonable discussion as an alternative to that mess.

But I'll agree that it wasn't the ideal solution. What should have happened is that the same rules that are in place in the tech forums should have been implemented here. That would have involved some people changing how they post, and the more obnoxious members being shown the door.

But the admins didn't want to do that. And that's their call.

The issue I have with DC isn't that you post too much, it's that it feels very authoritarian. It started with members having to request access, and is reflected in the posting requirements. The "tight ship" the mods wanted feels like a tax audit. It also appears to have a distinctly left leaning feel to it.
It has a left-leaning feel to it mostly because P&N is right-leaning, and that's because most of the right-wingers here know their posting styles would not be acceptable in the DC.

I don't know why you think it's "authoritarian". The standards there are not really different than what's expected in the technical rooms. There's also a standing promise that you cannot get an ATF infraction or warning for breaking any rules that are DC-specific.

Obviously, it's not an inviting forum, or more people would use it. The only question is, will it be fixed or abandoned?
It most definitely will not be abandoned. That would leave people no alternative to this swamp for discussing issues.

If you have suggestions for fixing it, please fire away.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,631
2,154
126
It has a left-leaning feel to it mostly because P&N is right-leaning, and that's because most of the right-wingers here know their posting styles would not be acceptable in the DC.
I don't agree that P&N leans right, the only proof I have of that is every pole that's ever been posted in P&N.
The comment about the right wingers is exactly whats wrong with DC. They have been judged, and found lacking, before posting anything. That's authoritarian. That's why DC is a few people agreeing with each other, that's why it's dead.

Dump the approval system, instead of making members ask to participate, invite them in.
Find a single mod that's closer to center, and don't let him say much.

Get the place moving, then start to refine it down to what's wanted.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,057
61
91
That's pretty much exactly what I was saying Charles. Well except that P&N and L&R should have never received sub forums. A tech forum isn't really the best place for serious social discussion, we're not exactly a real slice of the world.

But letting P&N have special rules and then creating a new forum is a failure. Admin has been failing more and more, at least as far as old members are concerned.

Its a private forum though, so who am I to judge the owner and operators intent though. If it was Tallbilltech I'd be ashamed of the current state of affairs.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
That's pretty much exactly what I was saying Charles. Well except that P&N and L&R should have never received sub forums. A tech forum isn't really the best place for serious social discussion, we're not exactly a real slice of the world.
Okay, we are actually pretty much on the same page then I think.

Oddly, I think this place could be a great place for discussing social issues, specifically because it is technical in nature. That means it draws in people for reasons not related to politics, ensuring more of a cross-section than would occur in an explicitly politics-based forum.

I proposed the subform for P&N because nothing was being done to clean this place up, and a lot of folks said they wanted a better place to debate ideas. Unfortunately, creating it has made it possible for P&N to continue to fester.

But letting P&N have special rules and then creating a new forum is a failure.
I'm inclined to agree, but that's not my call.

I don't agree that P&N leans right, the only proof I have of that is every pole that's ever been posted in P&N.
Polls aren't a good way of assessing the tone of a room because they include infrequent posters and also lurkers. There are a large number of very active right-wing posters in P&N. They have chosen not to come to the DC, so of course the DC will seem more left-leaning than P&N.

The comment about the right wingers is exactly whats wrong with DC. They have been judged, and found lacking, before posting anything. That's authoritarian.
Small problem here: what you are saying is not true.

I didn't say that I had judged these people and found them lacking. I said that I thought they did this themselves. They know that the DC requires reasonable behavior and logical reasoning, and they aren't interested in that, so they've chosen not to participate.

For the record: only one person has ever asked to join the DC and been turned down, and that person was so obnoxious that he's now permabanned. That's it. One person. There has been no exclusion based on political viewpoints.

Dump the approval system, instead of making members ask to participate, invite them in.
I agree and I'm hoping we can do that. You may have missed it, but I've said a number of times that the requirement to ask for membership was never something I wanted.

Find a single mod that's closer to center, and don't let him say much.
Earlier you said that you didn't think I post too much, but you seem to be saying the opposite here.

We have two moderators. One, Eaglekeeper, is a conservative. The other, me, is a left-leaning libertarian. It's impossible to find anyone that everyone can agree on as being "centrist" -- you probably think I'm a raving liberal, while there are liberals on this board who think I'm too far right to even complement Eaglekeeper. It's just not possible to please everyone with these matters.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,182
7,997
136
I think it's pretty simple, you can either debate your views/points or not. If you can then discussion club is for you, if you can't debate your views/points then stick with P&N where when challenged you act however you want.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,631
2,154
126
I think it's pretty simple, you can either debate your views/points or not. If you can then discussion club is for you, if you can't debate your views/points then stick with P&N where when challenged you act however you want.
You should read the last few pages of this thread. The issues are all laid out, the information is pretty clear, though you do have to dig for it a bit.
It's interesting to me that so many agree that P&N sucks, but won't go near the DC. That's one of those things that make you go hmmmm.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,491
2,994
126
You should read the last few pages of this thread. The issues are all laid out, the information is pretty clear, though you do have to dig for it a bit.
It's interesting to me that so many agree that P&N sucks, but won't go near the DC. That's one of those things that make you go hmmmm.
I'm not sure many people understand how casual DC actually is. The description of a "polite P&N" has yet to be challenged, I just don't think it's seen as that.

In time, perhaps, our participation there may be self evident on what its purpose is.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,631
2,154
126
I'm not sure many people understand how casual DC actually is. The description of a "polite P&N" has yet to be challenged, I just don't think it's seen as that.

In time, perhaps, our participation there may be self evident on what its purpose is.
It seems unlikely that it will spontaneously become popular.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,525
42
86
I think it's pretty simple, you can either debate your views/points or not. If you can then discussion club is for you, if you can't debate your views/points then stick with P&N where when challenged you act however you want.
*sigh*

I've gone back and forth with you in a few threads, and can read some recent examples of threads you've posted in in the discussion club. You're of the general attitude "I know am right, it is your job to conclusively prove me wrong." Do you believe that you yourself are following the rules you demand of other people?

Debates work because there is a much larger audience to convince and be rewarded by for winning over. This audience does not exist on an internet forum. When the situation is reduced a one-on-one exchange, the two people have to both be open to learning from each other. Otherwise the discussion is meaningless and counterproductive. Can you honestly say you respect people with different opinions and beliefs?
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,491
2,994
126
It seems unlikely that it will spontaneously become popular.
I find your choice of words a poor description for my idea. I suspect DC will gradually become more popular than it is now. I expect all of us will become more familiar with it, and through familiarity - post more frequently.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,182
7,997
136
*sigh*

I've gone back and forth with you in a few threads, and can read some recent examples of threads you've posted in in the discussion club. You're of the general attitude "I know am right, it is your job to conclusively prove me wrong." Do you believe that you yourself are following the rules you demand of other people?

Debates work because there is a much larger audience to convince and be rewarded by for winning over. This audience does not exist on an internet forum. When the situation is reduced a one-on-one exchange, the two people have to both be open to learning from each other. Otherwise the discussion is meaningless and counterproductive. Can you honestly say you respect people with different opinions and beliefs?

Yes I can.
 

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