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New Political Forum

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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can I say something and I am not being mean....what you want will not happen as far as it is Obamacare is a commonly accepted terminology.....now other things like Repubtard...or libtard....I would say will not be allowed.....but hey I am not a mod...
I agree with you there. Mods may as well, for I believe those insults can be considered cover under rules #1 and #4.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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You are trying to impose your rules/prejudices on the new forum.

It is not going to happen.
I'm not trying to impose anything. If you want the new forum to be distinct and discussions a bit elevated from the old maybe you should look more closely at that the things that pull current discussions here down. But like I said, I'm not expecting that much anymore. Probably shouldn't have to begin with with a mod that gives responses such as yours.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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I only want debates colored with accuracy from accurate & proper names over slang & pejoratives.
I'm not sure how many more ways I can say "I respectfully accept your position, but you are both vastly outnumbered and not in agreement with the people who have to run the forum, so it's not going to happen."

*shrug*

There are plenty of things I'd like to see differently here (and in most places where I post), but in the end, the people in charge make the calls. (And by that I don't mean me -- I'm low man on the administrative totem pole.)

--

I just want to make one thing clear. The idea of the new forum is not to recreate a high school debating club following Robert's Rules of Order. The idea of the new forum is a place where people can comfortably discuss issues, even controversial ones, without *knowing* that within 24 hours they will be insulted, be forced to deal with utterly irrational responses, or have the thread entirely derailed.

We don't have the time or patience to go through and evaluate every post, and I don't think most people want that either. We just want what I summarize as "P&N without the bullshit".

Remember that this new forum was created as an alternative to imposing moderation on the old P&N, which would have mostly just entailed having P&N follow the same rules as any other room on ATF.

Maybe the problem is the name. Perhaps "Discussion Club" or something else would be better.
 
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Oct 16, 1999
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I'm not sure how many more ways I can say "I respectfully accept your position, but you are both vastly outnumbered and not in agreement with the people who have to run the forum, so it's not going to happen.
You don't have to. Decision accepted and I understand even though I don't agree. I was only responding to cubby as to what my intentions were. I put the rest of my thoughts in my thread on propaganda and will keep them there.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Okay.

I just posted a lengthy reply there. Summary: defining and identifying "propaganda" in a way everyone will agree with is impossible.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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To start with a question: I understand that what the rule on quotes not being altered is trying to do (prevent the "fixed that for ya" stuff) but are we allowed to quote a single section of a post?
Yes. Responding to specific points is standard on forums. As long as you aren't deliberately editing things to make them seem what they are not, it's fine.

Deceptive editing includes changing any of the quoted text (including the "ftfy" nonsense) or intentionally taking things out of context.

An example of snipping out context might be...

I say: "In the last debate, Romney said Obama is a poopyhead".

And someone quotes me as:

Charles Kozierok said:
Obama is a poopyhead.
It's pretty much common sense. I'm working on something to clarify these matters.

Wait, which will have a higher SnR than wanted? Debate or P&N? P&N will become even more of a zoo, as the people allowed in to the debate forum will likely be the people less prone to insults already. As such, those people may view the debate forum as the new home for them, and P&N as the undercity that they don't go in to anymore...lowering the overall bar in P&N.
Actually, so far, the people who would not be welcome in the DC have at least expressed enough self-awareness to not even bother asking to join. I don't think even one person who asked in has been denied yet.

I do think there will be some people who would be welcome but just prefer P&N, and that's fine. And some people will post in both places, also fine.
 

beachchica

Member
Mar 10, 2013
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Ok... I'm a little confused. I was trying to post a response in another part of this site but it said I couldn't. (Discussion Club) I think this is where I ask for permission to post there?

Sorry, I'm new.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
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We just want what I summarize as "P&N without the bullshit".
..
Maybe the problem is the name. Perhaps "Discussion Club" or something else would be better.
..As the same thematic mission as the P&N, then the 'Adult P&N' or the 'Civilised P&N' to remove any confusion?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Ok... I'm a little confused. I was trying to post a response in another part of this site but it said I couldn't. (Discussion Club) I think this is where I ask for permission to post there?

Sorry, I'm new.
A snippet from the first post, minus the unneeded fluff:

Applications will be taken through Moderator Discussions. You may apply but one time, and will receive a yea or nay within at least one week. You must accept our decision without further comment. Continuing to clutter MD and presume upon our volunteer time will be considered sanctionable trolling.
You can find the moderators discussion forum on the left side of the screen, at the very bottom of the list of forums.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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..As the same thematic mission as the P&N, then the 'Adult P&N' or the 'Civilised P&N' to remove any confusion?
"Adult" in the title would lead to much confusion and varied fantasies.

I do fear that P&N still serves its own purpose, and that the new forum is much too similar to denote proper standing. It may take time to grow, much more than anyone would have guessed.

The immediate barrier to entry does not help in this regard. Opening it up and following with heavy moderation on the violators may help bolster participation. Though I dare say P&N could just follow through with the "polite" rules and be done with it.

I've not been one to make topics frequently, though I wonder which forum I would choose today. Which one would you choose - and why?
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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"Adult" in the title would lead to much confusion and varied fantasies.
Yeah, I think the current name is fine.

I do fear that P&N still serves its own purpose, and that the new forum is much too similar to denote proper standing. It may take time to grow, much more than anyone would have guessed.
I've been one of the major proponents of the Discussion Club, and the most active in terms of posting threads. Given that, I should remind some folks who may not have been around for the earlier discussions, that having two forums was not my first choice -- I would have preferred that P&N just be cleaned up. But that didn't seem to be happening, and there were enough people who like P&N as it is now, that I thought a second room was a good compromise. And the admins agreed, and so here we are.

You're right that it will take time, and that it will never likely be as popular as P&N. There are a number of reasons for this, but the simplest one is that many people would rather bicker and insult each other than try to discuss things in an adult fashion. It's more "fun" for certain types of individuals to participate in such, and for others, to spectate. The perpetual bickerers and flamebaiters and flamers tend to be the most active, so those threads tend to have a lot more back-and-forth, and that's part of the reason the forum seems much more active. Of course there are other reasons, such as there simply being more participants.

The question becomes one of quality versus quantity. For example, what is the value of the Nth thread of pro-life and pro-choice people flaming each other, compared to a single thread where pro-life and pro-choice people actually exchange ideas productively and try to find common ground? Everyone has to answer that question for themselves. I know what my answer is.

And, of course, nobody is required to choose one room to the exclusion of the other. Plenty of folks are using both.

The immediate barrier to entry does not help in this regard. Opening it up and following with heavy moderation on the violators may help bolster participation.
It may be worth re-examining this at some point.

Though I dare say P&N could just follow through with the "polite" rules and be done with it.
I only wish. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be the will to do this at the present time.

I've not been one to make topics frequently, though I wonder which forum I would choose today. Which one would you choose - and why?
Well, the Discussion Club will be what people make of it. While, again, I've been by far the most frequent poster, there were dozens of people who indicated interest in a place to discuss news and controversial topics without threads devolving into scatology within hours. If those folks want the place to thrive, they need to pitch in.

It's a bit of a Catch-22 in that not many folks are starting threads, so some folks don't want to jump in. I try to seed discussion only to then have other people say they don't like having so many threads by one person. Maybe I should make a bunch of socks? ;)

Anyway, beginnings are difficult. It takes time and effort. I think we'll get there -- if it's what we want.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
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:thumbsup:
Opening it up and following with heavy moderation on the violators may help bolster participation. Though I dare say P&N could just follow through with the "polite" rules and be done with it.
I agree on both counts.

I have a preference to get involved where I expect civility and honest maturity. I am now disappointed to see a topic that gains my interest to have only been presented in the P&N.

Time will tell, possibly sooner than later with the recent return of some notable and forced absentees.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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I have a preference to get involved where I expect civility and honest maturity. I am now disappointed to see a topic that gains my interest to have only been presented in the P&N.
Then feel free to start a thread about it in DC. That's not a problem, especially if the one here has already devolved into the usual.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
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Then feel free to start a thread about it in DC.
And I will.....Already had a few ideas to help start up in that forum. I just need time... It's unfortunately easier to lurk while on breaks at work and home, then follow the existing leads with a relatively quick reply than compose a well thought out and referenced introduction to a new topic.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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I have a preference to get involved where I expect civility and honest maturity. I am now disappointed to see a topic that gains my interest to have only been presented in the P&N.
Then you should post as you expect others to post. If you want the world to be a better place, the change starts with you, not demanding others change first.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
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Then you should post as you expect others to post.
In your failing attempt to critique me, I am quite confident in my standing within this forum and feel that with my relatively few posts, I do contribute to its better standing.
If you want the world to be a better place, the change starts with you, not demanding others change first.
As you demonstrate with yet another uncalled for, disruptive, and antagonising post, I think that we may hold our breath in relief with your lengthy records for infractions and banishments, we will not witness your presence in the most welcomed new forum. ;)
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
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I would rather the mods just stay out of this threads in this section of the forums. Deleting posts, challenging posters, and banning them when you don't agree with them or they don't do something to your liking is a disgusting abuse of power and this WAS one of the few forums where it didn't happen. Now Dave is banned, posts are being deleted daily, and mods are arguing with people in threads.

For a bunch of people who claim to have grown up in America you sure act the complete opposite. We, the people who post here, can moderate this forum just fine by ourselves. We are constantly calling out the fringe posters and the people who toe the party line and espouse their virtues. This latest shift into Authoritarian Moderation is a disgusting turn and tramples all over our freedom of speech.

And before you all say this is a private forum, let me remind you that nothing is private on the internet...especially something that is put onto webspace for PUBLIC discussion.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
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this statement is rifuckingdiculous.
How so? We don't have the right to say what we want in a public forum built for people to say what they want? Yeah, I can really see the logic in that. You should read the threat they sent me in response to my post...lol

Whoever is running this place needs to put these people in check.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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We don't have the right to say what we want in a public forum built for people to say what they want?
Nope. you do not have a right to use anyone else's computer for any reason.

Turns out the text you type is hitting Anand's computer and it's being served out using his bandwidth. If you don't like the way he deals with data on his own computer, then take it up with the man himself.


Now, if you take into account we are affluent and banner adds are valuable here: you might want to come up with a more "your organization is not providing proper customer service" attitude; instead of a "I have a right to put what I want on your server" attitude.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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How so? We don't have the right to say what we want in a public forum built for people to say what they want? Yeah, I can really see the logic in that. You should read the threat they sent me in response to my post...lol

Whoever is running this place needs to put these people in check.
The Moderators are selected/approved by the person (Anand) running this place.

No one is forcing you to be here; you are free to leave at anytime.
While here, you are expected to respect the rules.


EK
Admin
 

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