His point is that if Israel really did go all out to rid themselves of the Palestinian problem, this "war" would have been over a long long time ago.
To which you reply that the IDF sucks because they've been at it for 30 years and still haven't gotten anywhere...which is really the point he was making to you.
In either case, you're wrong/not getting it: 1.) The IDF doesn't suck, they're just held back from removing the threat by politics/humanity (which means it has nothing to do with them sucking, which they don't), and 2.) the reason the IDF, which you claim to suck, hasn't removed the Palestinian problem permanently is because they're held back. Again, not because they suck.
I don't respect the way Israel was founded, what they did to the indigenous population there soon afterwards, and certainly don't respect the way they've treated them since.
However, the IDF doesn't suck by any measure.
Chuck
To which you reply that the IDF sucks because they've been at it for 30 years and still haven't gotten anywhere...which is really the point he was making to you.
In either case, you're wrong/not getting it: 1.) The IDF doesn't suck, they're just held back from removing the threat by politics/humanity (which means it has nothing to do with them sucking, which they don't), and 2.) the reason the IDF, which you claim to suck, hasn't removed the Palestinian problem permanently is because they're held back. Again, not because they suck.
I don't respect the way Israel was founded, what they did to the indigenous population there soon afterwards, and certainly don't respect the way they've treated them since.
However, the IDF doesn't suck by any measure.
Chuck
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
- 0
- 0
The Israeli occupation force killed more of their own solders in the Gaza massacre than Hamas rockets killed Israeli civilians in the same period. That said, it's really the Israeli government's colonialist mindset that sucks, since as long as the settlement explanation continues the occupation has to be there to defend it, there is no chance for peace, and Israeli solders are let to make the best they can of that insane situation.
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,948
- 126
Well if in 30 years they haven't been able to come up with a strategy to beat them within the set parameters then they suck! Now if what you are saying is that its impossible to beat them no matter the strategy then why are they still trying to solve the problem with force? That would mean they suck and they are stupid.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
What must be discarded immediately is any notion that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is any kind of fair fight or that the Palestinians are any kind of a threat. The joker in the deck is terrorism which has been the one constant for all of 61 years of existence.
Thus far, anti Israeli terrorism has been a minor annoyance, is mostly dependent on outside Arab funding, and I predict that there are not many years left before terrorists will acquire the chemical and biological weapons and the means to deliver them into Israeli population centers.
And while its all well possible for Israel to roll into Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, or the West Bank, administer collective punishment, it may stoke Israeli revenge, but all it does is kite anger resentment and more terrorism. And when the terrorists do acquire the means to be really effective in targeting Israel, all the over kill Israel has used in the past will come back to haunt it.
Thus far, anti Israeli terrorism has been a minor annoyance, is mostly dependent on outside Arab funding, and I predict that there are not many years left before terrorists will acquire the chemical and biological weapons and the means to deliver them into Israeli population centers.
And while its all well possible for Israel to roll into Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, or the West Bank, administer collective punishment, it may stoke Israeli revenge, but all it does is kite anger resentment and more terrorism. And when the terrorists do acquire the means to be really effective in targeting Israel, all the over kill Israel has used in the past will come back to haunt it.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 36,414
- 10,720
- 136
Any opponent in war is capable of being beaten to the point of surrender. You don't accept the means to force surrender, and so people may continue to die for decades to come. You don't save lives, you're merely exchanging those who would die today for those who will die tomorrow.
The difference is that under your ideals no one will know peace and under my ideals the people of tomorrow would know peace. You mentioning stoking anger and more terrorism, but that's only they failed to surrender. Now why would they not surrender, if motivated properly?
That you're against this motivation stinks of self fulfilling prophecy. To both work against a surrender and then to speak of it as if it cannot occur. You're meeting your own ends here, but why are your ends in favor of Muslim terrorism?
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
- 5
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The IDF is in the same situation that most military forces have been in since WWII.
The politicians are running the show and have strict ROE on the military.
That handicaps the militray from doing what they are trained for and allows the enemy to take advantage of the restrictions.
- Jul 13, 2005
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YES so.......as an Israeli I can state for a fact almost all my friends who have been in the IDF or are still in the IDF the biggest complaint is the politicians will not allow them to finish anything...you take it from there....
I have always stated given free reign with no politicians involved the middle east problem would have been solved a long time ago.....take that for whatever you wish.....
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,948
- 126
So why would they run the wrong policy for over 30 years? Tell me why the average American should give 2 squirts of piss about the plight of the Israeli people? If 30 years ago instead of killing a 1000 people a year or so you just decided to not kill anyone and talk you would be in a better place. Instead you blow just enough people away every year to make sure that the population hates you hence fueling "terrorism".
Its not terrorism though as they can't fight a conventional war with you because they don't have the proper funding. It's really the only way they can fight. Unless you want to give them 30 years to build up a proper military and then go toe to toe?
Gezus, this is why people who truly cannot keep all the piece parts, and the effects they have on each other, should not be posting like you are.
The IDF is not making the rules they get to fight foreign adverseries by. That's the politicians.
It's the same deal in Iraq or Afghanistan where the US forces there could literally wipe the local populations off the face of the map - conventionally no less - but obviously don't. Only difference is there, the US forces are there to maintain peace and stability and/or hunt down POS's who blow up the local civilian population, and the IDF is held back by politicians who know if they let the IDF really loose, there are going to be Millions less Palestinians alive.
You can only be as good as the rules/constraints you're forced to adhere to, and how your adversery exploits those to their advantage.
If the IDF wanted to match the Palestinian side players, for every rocket and suicide attack, they'd fire artillery into the Palestinian civilian areas. Not go chace down Hamas one time in a big operation, but literally, rocket comes into Israel, artilery goes into Palestinian area.
This of course does nothing to address the Israeli's willfully encroaching on Palestinian areas, and Israel oppressing the Palestinians like Hitler oppressed the Jews in German controlled areas, but still, you're less likely to throw a punch when you know for every punch you throw, you're getting hit back in the face equally hard.
Chuck
The IDF is not making the rules they get to fight foreign adverseries by. That's the politicians.
It's the same deal in Iraq or Afghanistan where the US forces there could literally wipe the local populations off the face of the map - conventionally no less - but obviously don't. Only difference is there, the US forces are there to maintain peace and stability and/or hunt down POS's who blow up the local civilian population, and the IDF is held back by politicians who know if they let the IDF really loose, there are going to be Millions less Palestinians alive.
You can only be as good as the rules/constraints you're forced to adhere to, and how your adversery exploits those to their advantage.
If the IDF wanted to match the Palestinian side players, for every rocket and suicide attack, they'd fire artillery into the Palestinian civilian areas. Not go chace down Hamas one time in a big operation, but literally, rocket comes into Israel, artilery goes into Palestinian area.
This of course does nothing to address the Israeli's willfully encroaching on Palestinian areas, and Israel oppressing the Palestinians like Hitler oppressed the Jews in German controlled areas, but still, you're less likely to throw a punch when you know for every punch you throw, you're getting hit back in the face equally hard.
Chuck
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,948
- 126
ohh come on the timeline is so long that the country is playing how they want too. if every 18 year old kid has to go into the idf then whats this the leaders today were in that shit 30 years ago. Please tell me why the policy of that country is fucked beyond belief?
What do you call the state they were living in before they got carted away? Or the ghetto's they were forced to live in? The total control they were under?
I call that oppression...not sure what you call it.
Chuck
That's because there are no "easy" solutions now. The solutions that would have been "easily" attainable 40-60 years ago are not so easily attainable now.
Couple that with the problem of Israel wanting the Palestinians gone, vs. the Palestinians not wanting to leave/no where else to go, and heaping on various human rights the Israeli's are either forced to meet and/or choose to meet, and you've got what you've got now. Then you've got all the external influences, the US on Israel's side, local Muslim countries in the region on the Palestinian's.
That still doesn't mean the IDF sucks. I just means it's an impossible situation for a military to win within the confines of a proper war in these times. WWI or WWII times even, this would be easy for the Israeli's: They'd just go and kick the Palestinians out, dead or alive...wouldn't matter to the Israeli's, it's war.
Things aren't done like that anymore though....we've progressed to taking out the other side and also blowing up just a few innocent/"innocent" civilians, instead of a whole block of them.
Chuck
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,948
- 126
Well then they need to figure out what the solution will be even if its "harder" then it would of been. If the final solution isn't the answer then they are going to have to give up some land. So why draw this out for the next 30 years? And why should my government give them aid to burn money like this? The entire country is full of idiots - except the waves programmers
If you're Israel and holding all the high cards, why cast some away for lesser ones? So Israel gives up land...Ok. Now it has less land to use for natural resources, less land to use for some of its batsh1t insane - but very vocal - citizens who think God intended for them to settle there, and anything less is an afront to god, and you've got less security as the Palestinians are that much closer.
Given that on a total scale, the only downside is it provokes suicide bombings and rocket attacks, and PO's the Palestinians and Muslims (who don't really give a sh1t about the Palestinians, they just hate Jews, and/or, hate that Jews are doing far better than the Muslims there).
So the question is: Given the Pro's vs. the Con's, what's the better choice? Clearly, the Israeli's have chosen, to their benefit and the Palestinians detriment.
And why should my government give them aid to burn money like this? The entire country is full of idiots - except the waves programmers
Your country shouldn't really. The way Israel treats Millions of Palestinians is frankly horriffic. Only thing you can do is vote for politicians that pledge not to support Israel, not to hinder it...just take a total hands off approach.
Chuck
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
Originally posted by: chucky2
If you're Israel and holding all the high cards, why cast some away for lesser ones? So Israel gives up land...Ok. Now it has less land to use for natural resources, less land to use for some of its batsh1t insane - but very vocal - citizens who think God intended for them to settle there, and anything less is an afront to god, and you've got less security as the Palestinians are that much closer.
Given that on a total scale, the only downside is it provokes suicide bombings and rocket attacks, and PO's the Palestinians and Muslims (who don't really give a sh1t about the Palestinians, they just hate Jews, and/or, hate that Jews are doing far better than the Muslims there).
So the question is: Given the Pro's vs. the Con's, what's the better choice? Clearly, the Israeli's have chosen, to their benefit and the Palestinians detriment.
And why should my government give them aid to burn money like this? The entire country is full of idiots - except the waves programmers
Your country shouldn't really. The way Israel treats Millions of Palestinians is frankly horriffic. Only thing you can do is vote for politicians that pledge not to support Israel, not to hinder it...just take a total hands off approach.
Chuck
That will never happen!!
We need them as an allie more than they need our assistance!
Nobody else in that part of the world will assist us with intelligence gathering like the Israeli`s!
Also the israeli`s did not ask for us to start supporting them with military aid.
We took it upon ourselves to do so.
They were just fine without any assistance from us.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
Ya I should have told you were ya were from. Befor I asked I knew the ans . befor I asked.
So your the same kind of jew as Rothschild . Is that correct or not . I say it is. KAZAR jew.
The greatest conspirecy in the world planned out 1000s of years ago . Everthing in the world today thats occurring is from the Kazar jew .
Ya your from the line of abraham alright . question is which one of the 2 sons
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