NBA : How good is Jason Kidd?

[iamme]

Originally posted by: slayer202
nets and heat would be good, as would nets and pistons. do you guys remember the year the pistons won the championship? I believe that was the same year that chauncey hit that halfcourt+ shot to push the game into overtime and they eventually won the game and the series. the nets should have won that game and series if it wasnt for a miracle shot....and the nets beat the pistons a couple weeks ago recently

i was at that game. i remember that shot was in the air for what felt like 20 seconds. truly amazing and one of the best Pistons memories i have

 

[Crazee]

Originally posted by: torpid
Kidd is a level above hardaway and KJ for sure. It's not really close when you look at their actual impact and the way they played. Forget stats. Kidd and Payton is arguable, to be honest I'd take Kidd just because of Payton's attitude. I think Payton's attitude removes him from being considered a player that truly makes other players great. Kidd's attitude is great, and this allows other players to trust him and want to compete for him.

Hardaway was a bit of a choker in the games I saw. He may have had a decent number of assists, but they weren't assists that created something out of nothing as often as Kidd's are. Some of those back door cut passes are absolutely criminal by Kidd. There's no way I would ever take Hardaway or KJ in a team oriented around fast breaks and princeton-style offense.

Payton proved and admitted that he does not operate well in a triangle offense. I am 99.9% certain that Kidd would be just as good in the triangle as any other system.

Another thing, Kidd is one of the very best rebounders you will ever see for a PG. Payton is decent, but Kidd is at another level. This is a very important aspect of PG. If the PG gets the rebound, he can run the fast break that much more quickly.

Also, Kidd may not be a great shooter, but he has that rare ability to improve his shooting and offensive play when the situation calls for it. In the playoffs with the nets, numerous times he stepped up his offensive game when the opposing team was playing pass protection defense. He makes big shots when it matters too. Sort of the opposite of tim hardaway.

I can't call your choice of Kidd over Payton as bad, but I do think stating that Kidd would do well in the triangle is incorrect. The triangle calls for guards that can hit the outside shot. That is definitely not a strength of Kidd.

Payton wasn't a great 3 ball shooter and that showed in the triangle, but also he didn't get in the system until the downside of his career.

Kidd is definitely the better rebounder of the two, however in his prime years GP was absolutely the best defensive point guard in the game. Kidd has been a good defender, but GP is as much ahead of him in defense as Kidd is ahead in rebounding.

I also think you are underestimating KJ. People forget how this guy could take anyone off the dribble and slash his way for a layup. You don't shoot 49% from the field as a point guard without snapping off a few guys at the knees. Also you can say throw the stats out all you want, but 9.1 assist per game is something you can't throw out. The guy could obviously pass the ball and could draw defenders off others with his dribble penetration. That said I would still pick Kidd over KJ, but it would be much closer than many people here think. I think KJ's career getting cut short by injuries has caused people to forget how good he really was.

I have to point out that there are very few players that you can say are a first ballot lock. Look at Dominique Wilkens. The guy should have been a first ballot guy, but it really depends on who else is going to be up for it when your first year of eligibility comes up. In my opinion Kidd will get in the HoF. It may or may not be first ballot but he definitely belongs there.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Crazee

Originally posted by: torpid
Kidd is a level above hardaway and KJ for sure. It's not really close when you look at their actual impact and the way they played. Forget stats. Kidd and Payton is arguable, to be honest I'd take Kidd just because of Payton's attitude. I think Payton's attitude removes him from being considered a player that truly makes other players great. Kidd's attitude is great, and this allows other players to trust him and want to compete for him.

Hardaway was a bit of a choker in the games I saw. He may have had a decent number of assists, but they weren't assists that created something out of nothing as often as Kidd's are. Some of those back door cut passes are absolutely criminal by Kidd. There's no way I would ever take Hardaway or KJ in a team oriented around fast breaks and princeton-style offense.

Payton proved and admitted that he does not operate well in a triangle offense. I am 99.9% certain that Kidd would be just as good in the triangle as any other system.

Another thing, Kidd is one of the very best rebounders you will ever see for a PG. Payton is decent, but Kidd is at another level. This is a very important aspect of PG. If the PG gets the rebound, he can run the fast break that much more quickly.

Also, Kidd may not be a great shooter, but he has that rare ability to improve his shooting and offensive play when the situation calls for it. In the playoffs with the nets, numerous times he stepped up his offensive game when the opposing team was playing pass protection defense. He makes big shots when it matters too. Sort of the opposite of tim hardaway.

I can't call your choice of Kidd over Payton as bad, but I do think stating that Kidd would do well in the triangle is incorrect. The triangle calls for guards that can hit the outside shot. That is definitely not a strength of Kidd.

Payton wasn't a great 3 ball shooter and that showed in the triangle, but also he didn't get in the system until the downside of his career.

Kidd is definitely the better rebounder of the two, however in his prime years GP was absolutely the best defensive point guard in the game. Kidd has been a good defender, but GP is as much ahead of him in defense as Kidd is ahead in rebounding.

I also think you are underestimating KJ. People forget how this guy could take anyone off the dribble and slash his way for a layup. You don't shoot 49% from the field as a point guard without snapping off a few guys at the knees. Also you can say throw the stats out all you want, but 9.1 assist per game is something you can't throw out. The guy could obviously pass the ball and could draw defenders off others with his dribble penetration. That said I would still pick Kidd over KJ, but it would be much closer than many people here think. I think KJ's career getting cut short by injuries has caused people to forget how good he really was.

I have to point out that there are very few players that you can say are a first ballot lock. Look at Dominique Wilkens. The guy should have been a first ballot guy, but it really depends on who else is going to be up for it when your first year of eligibility comes up. In my opinion Kidd will get in the HoF. It may or may not be first ballot but he definitely belongs there.

nice post, although i think Kidd would have done well in the triangle, he would just have to played Scotties role and not the PG. kidd is big enough to be a decent Point Foward and he obviously has the passing skills.

other than that, i agree with most of your analysis. don't get me wrong, i remember KJ very well, he was a PG in the mold of Isaiah thomas.

 

[lrad50]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Does he rank still as a top 10 player? top 20?

here's the thing, he doesn't score that much and he didn't score that much in NJ recent 14-0 streak but he does add significantly to the wins, via he rebounding and his assists.

is that enough to make him a great player?

how does he rank vs Magic Johnson, John Stocton and Isaiah Thomas, 3 of the best point guards in recent history not currently active.

I think he is still up there, he simply makes every player around him better.

I think Steve Nash is better and will end up with more stats than him tho.

 

[lrad50]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: iamme
whoa, you're statistical analysis is HORRIBLE.

you're comparing "seasons averaged over 10 assist per game" (KJ 4, Tim, 3, Kidd 2)? how about just comparing CAREER assist averages?

Kidd: 9.3
KJ: 9.1
Tim: 8.2

yes, Kidd isn't known for his shooting...but "SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER OFFENSIVE PLAYERS THAN JASON KIDD AND ADDED THE ASSISTS AS WELL"? career scoring averages:

Tim 17.7
KJ: 17.9
Kidd: 14.8

on average, a whopping 3 points per game less. i'd hardly call that SIGNIFICANT. i'm not calling Kidd a prolific scorer, but 3 ppg more isn't reason to call the SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER OFFENSIVE PLAYERS. i won't even bother posting rebounding averages, because Kidd pretty blows them away in that category (like 2X the rebounds per game).

basically, you're trying to say the other guys are better assist guys and MUCH better scorers. i contend that Kidd is actually the better assist guy and marginally a worse scorer. but with Kidd, i think you get a better rebounder and an overall better defender.

Those two players finished their careers. In the prime of their careers they avg over 20 a game. Unless Kidd retires without ever coming off the bench, when his career is over he'll avg probably down around 12-13 a game. Jason Kidd is a poor offensive player. And not only did these guys accomplish what Kidd has done with good assist totals but they could dominate a game offensively. Jason Kidd has been a brutal brutal offensive player his ENTIRE career. I watched one game in which he took 3 straight threes, two were air balls and the other hit only the back board. He has had many many games like that.

KJ's best years he had MUCH better teammates than JKidd EVER has had. EVER.

same with Tim Hardaway. At his peak he had all star players around him.

JKidd in NJ ONLY had RJ and KMart and with that he went to 3 Eastern Conference champpionships and won 2.

sorry, KJ had Barkley (all time legendary player)

Tim had Zo

name ONE player kidd played with even close to being in the caliber of those two players.

At first, I thought your arguement was retarded, but with stats it seems logical.

But Kidd has posted such good stats with such different calliber teams that he should be a first round HOFer.