so basically kidd and nash are the two best point guard in the league (if you count iverson as a shooting guard)
You're impressed with 20+ point per game guards. So here's a stat for you:
2000-2001 Stephon Marbury
23.9 ppg 7.6 apg 3.1rpg 2.9 t/o
Nets Record: 26 - 56
2001-2002 Jason Kidd
14.7ppg 9.9 apg 7.3rpg 3.5 t/o
Nets Record: 52 - 30 (Eastern Conference Finals)
slayer202
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2005
- 13,679
- 119
- 106
haha good call on the starbury stats. classy, you are a funny guy.
and platinum, of course, we would all take marion over RJ, except maybe classy some some insane reason he can't explain
I think melo is a good comparison. I think RJ might be a better defender though, and more exciting to watch. Even though melo is younger, I think RJ has as much or even more upside and room to grow. but maybe thats just because I like RJ and melo isn't one of my favorite guys.
RJ ranks 22nd in the league in efficiency, just about vince and melo who are 23 and 24th respectively. kidd is at 17, nash at 13 he is 24th and 32nd in scoring/rebounding in the league, and there aren't too many guys who get as many boards as him and also score as much. and like i said, he shot 50% from the field which is impressive
I think he can be the leader of a team one day, even though I'm sure he doesn't mind playing alongside kidd and vince. I think vince is too much of a ballhog though. did you catch the end of the nets cavs a couple days ago? Vince made a very stupid decision at the end. I still don't know what he was thinking.
oh, and it doenst hurt that he is fun to watch i love when he goes baseline
and platinum, of course, we would all take marion over RJ, except maybe classy some some insane reason he can't explain
I think melo is a good comparison. I think RJ might be a better defender though, and more exciting to watch. Even though melo is younger, I think RJ has as much or even more upside and room to grow. but maybe thats just because I like RJ and melo isn't one of my favorite guys.
RJ ranks 22nd in the league in efficiency, just about vince and melo who are 23 and 24th respectively. kidd is at 17, nash at 13
he is 24th and 32nd in scoring/rebounding in the league, and there aren't too many guys who get as many boards as him and also score as much. and like i said, he shot 50% from the field which is impressiveI think he can be the leader of a team one day, even though I'm sure he doesn't mind playing alongside kidd and vince. I think vince is too much of a ballhog though. did you catch the end of the nets cavs a couple days ago? Vince made a very stupid decision at the end. I still don't know what he was thinking.
oh, and it doenst hurt that he is fun to watch
i love when he goes baselineOriginally posted by: slayer202
haha good call on the starbury stats. classy, you are a funny guy.
and platinum, of course, we would all take marion over RJ, except maybe classy some some insane reason he can't explain
I think melo is a good comparison. I think RJ might be a better defender though, and more exciting to watch. Even though melo is younger, I think RJ has as much or even more upside and room to grow. but maybe thats just because I like RJ and melo isn't one of my favorite guys.
RJ ranks 22nd in the league in efficiency, just about vince and melo who are 23 and 24th respectively. kidd is at 17, nash at 13
I think he can be the leader of a team one day, even though I'm sure he doesn't mind playing alongside kidd and vince. I think vince is too much of a ballhog though. did you catch the end of the nets cavs a couple days ago? Vince made a very stupid decision at the end. I still don't know what he was thinking.
oh, and it doenst hurt that he is fun to watch
I dont think Vince is a ball hog. it's one of the unselfish stars in the league.
Compare how many shots he takes vs the leading scorers in the league.
He does take dumbass threes, but if he's confident in taking those, IMO he should take them.
slayer202
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2005
- 13,679
- 119
- 106
not always, but he can be. the game against the cavs the other day was just stupid. 21ish seconds left down 3, nets have the ball. vince comes off a screen about 2 feet behind the 3pt line and throws up a shot and i think airballs it, might have hit the net, but thats all. game over. not sure if they drew that up, but it was stupid either way.
I don't really like the guy. he drives the lane and gets ridiculous calls somehow. might as well do that every play instead of throwing up crazy 3s, even though he does hit em sometimes. but they are winning, so whatever they are doing has been working. i think its nenad that has lifted them to an elite team. he is playing very well and can shoot lights out surprisingly. 20/11 i think he put up today against the bucks. I think they have a chance at the heat in the 2nd round
I don't really like the guy. he drives the lane and gets ridiculous calls somehow. might as well do that every play instead of throwing up crazy 3s, even though he does hit em sometimes. but they are winning, so whatever they are doing has been working. i think its nenad that has lifted them to an elite team. he is playing very well and can shoot lights out surprisingly. 20/11 i think he put up today against the bucks. I think they have a chance at the heat in the 2nd round
Originally posted by: isekii
Originally posted by: slayer202
haha good call on the starbury stats. classy, you are a funny guy.
and platinum, of course, we would all take marion over RJ, except maybe classy some some insane reason he can't explain
I think melo is a good comparison. I think RJ might be a better defender though, and more exciting to watch. Even though melo is younger, I think RJ has as much or even more upside and room to grow. but maybe thats just because I like RJ and melo isn't one of my favorite guys.
RJ ranks 22nd in the league in efficiency, just about vince and melo who are 23 and 24th respectively. kidd is at 17, nash at 13
I think he can be the leader of a team one day, even though I'm sure he doesn't mind playing alongside kidd and vince. I think vince is too much of a ballhog though. did you catch the end of the nets cavs a couple days ago? Vince made a very stupid decision at the end. I still don't know what he was thinking.
oh, and it doenst hurt that he is fun to watch
I dont think Vince is a ball hog. it's one of the unselfish stars in the league.
Compare how many shots he takes vs the leading scorers in the league.
He does take dumbass threes, but if he's confident in taking those, IMO he should take them.
What I don't like is how he slows down their game in the half court. The Nets developed a half court game this year as they've gotten older & gotten away from the fast break. If the ball is being passed around & it gets into Carter's hands, he proceeds to hold the ball & stare down his defender for several seconds. Even if he's going to end up passing the ball, it kills the ball movement a half court offense needs.
Originally posted by: slayer202
haha good call on the starbury stats. classy, you are a funny guy.
and platinum, of course, we would all take marion over RJ, except maybe classy some some insane reason he can't explain
I think melo is a good comparison. I think RJ might be a better defender though, and more exciting to watch. Even though melo is younger, I think RJ has as much or even more upside and room to grow. but maybe thats just because I like RJ and melo isn't one of my favorite guys.
RJ ranks 22nd in the league in efficiency, just about vince and melo who are 23 and 24th respectively. kidd is at 17, nash at 13
I think he can be the leader of a team one day, even though I'm sure he doesn't mind playing alongside kidd and vince. I think vince is too much of a ballhog though. did you catch the end of the nets cavs a couple days ago? Vince made a very stupid decision at the end. I still don't know what he was thinking.
oh, and it doenst hurt that he is fun to watch
Sorry, Melo >>>>> RJ in just about every way and will undoubtedly have a better future and career than RJ.
For the naysayers, I can't wait to see how the Nets/RJ does without Kidd.
When Kidd was injured, RJ did get his points, but the Nets were a losing team.
Kidd + Carter > Kidd + RJ > RJ + Carter
Kidd is definitely the cornerstone and MVP of the team.
Crazee
Elite Member
- Nov 20, 2001
- 5,736
- 0
- 76
Here is some stats to compare:
Gary Payton
FG% 46.7 3PT% 32.0 FT% 73.0 RB 4.1 AST 6.9 SPG 1.9 TO 2.3 A/TO 3.0 PPG 17.0
17 years 5126 Rebs 8723 ASTs 2398 STLs 282 BLKs 2960 TOs 21426 PTS
Jason Kidd
FG% 40.2 3PT% 33.2 FT% 77.9 RB 6.5 AST 9.2 SPG 2.1 TO 3.2 A/TO 2.8 PPG 14.7
13 years 5621 Rebs 7925 ASTs 1766 STLs 260 BLKs 2788 TOs 12641 PTS
Tim Hardaway
FG% 43.1 3PT% 35.5 FT% 78.2 RB 3.3 AST 8.2 SPG 1.65 TO 2.86 A/TO 2.8 PPG 17.7
13 Years 2855 Rebs 7095 ASTs 1428 STLs 129 BLKs 2481 TOs 15373 PTS
Kevin Johnson
FG% 49.3 3PT% 30.5 FT% 84.1 RB 3.3 AST 9.1 SPG 1.47 TO 3.07 A/TO 2.97 PPG 17.9
12 Years 2404 Rebs 6711 ASTs 1082 STLs 176 BLKs 2258 TOs 13127 PTS
Looking at these stats, you can make arguments for all these players. In my mind, I would prefer GP as he is the most balanced player of all these guys and did it over a longer period of time (Kidd is still going though). But a lot really depends on who else is on your team.
If you need the quick slasher who can dish and run the break, you would probably want KJ. If you want a guy who is a great rebounder and can pass very well you would go for Kidd. If you want a guy who can nail the three and still pass the ball well and take people off the dribble you would go for Hardaway. If you want a guy who is well rounded and consistent with all phases of the game you pick GP.
Obviously all 4 of these guys are/were great players. My personal rankings would be:
1) Gary Payton
2a) Jason Kidd
2b) Kevin Johnson (unfortunately injuries slowed a lot of what he could have done)
3) Tim Hardaway
Gary Payton
FG% 46.7 3PT% 32.0 FT% 73.0 RB 4.1 AST 6.9 SPG 1.9 TO 2.3 A/TO 3.0 PPG 17.0
17 years 5126 Rebs 8723 ASTs 2398 STLs 282 BLKs 2960 TOs 21426 PTS
Jason Kidd
FG% 40.2 3PT% 33.2 FT% 77.9 RB 6.5 AST 9.2 SPG 2.1 TO 3.2 A/TO 2.8 PPG 14.7
13 years 5621 Rebs 7925 ASTs 1766 STLs 260 BLKs 2788 TOs 12641 PTS
Tim Hardaway
FG% 43.1 3PT% 35.5 FT% 78.2 RB 3.3 AST 8.2 SPG 1.65 TO 2.86 A/TO 2.8 PPG 17.7
13 Years 2855 Rebs 7095 ASTs 1428 STLs 129 BLKs 2481 TOs 15373 PTS
Kevin Johnson
FG% 49.3 3PT% 30.5 FT% 84.1 RB 3.3 AST 9.1 SPG 1.47 TO 3.07 A/TO 2.97 PPG 17.9
12 Years 2404 Rebs 6711 ASTs 1082 STLs 176 BLKs 2258 TOs 13127 PTS
Looking at these stats, you can make arguments for all these players. In my mind, I would prefer GP as he is the most balanced player of all these guys and did it over a longer period of time (Kidd is still going though). But a lot really depends on who else is on your team.
If you need the quick slasher who can dish and run the break, you would probably want KJ. If you want a guy who is a great rebounder and can pass very well you would go for Kidd. If you want a guy who can nail the three and still pass the ball well and take people off the dribble you would go for Hardaway. If you want a guy who is well rounded and consistent with all phases of the game you pick GP.
Obviously all 4 of these guys are/were great players. My personal rankings would be:
1) Gary Payton
2a) Jason Kidd
2b) Kevin Johnson (unfortunately injuries slowed a lot of what he could have done)
3) Tim Hardaway
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,651
- 100
- 91
Kidd is unquestionably a first year hall of famer.
Besides his stats and his success, I love the way he raises the competitive intensity of his teams.
When its all said and done tho, he will probably be best known for getting many of his teammates much bigger contracts than they ever deserved.
Besides his stats and his success, I love the way he raises the competitive intensity of his teams.
When its all said and done tho, he will probably be best known for getting many of his teammates much bigger contracts than they ever deserved.
Just because I don't believe J Kidd is a HOF lock doesn't mean I don't think he is a good player. He is and I have stated that several times. But there are 3-4 guys better than him now and there are others who have been better than him. I don't think he is an elite player and I am not sure he is a first year HOF. There have been some great players that didn't get in their first year. And his triple doubles are not that impressive either.
who cares.
kidd is going to make every teammate a better player. too bad collins didn't perform well since he moved to power forward.
antonie wright will be the next rising star.
kidd is going to make every teammate a better player. too bad collins didn't perform well since he moved to power forward.
antonie wright will be the next rising star.
Collins is actually quite good defensively.
He's slow.. but he has great BBall IQ as well to make up for that.
there is a good chance the nets move to the #2 seed in the Eastern Conference playoffs. miami playing poorly, NJ playing well, 2.5 game gap 7 games to go.
if NJ gets that #2 spot, it could easily be NJ vs Detroit in the EC Championships.
detroit is favored to win it, but i think given good enough odds, 30 to 1 for example, i would take a chance and bet on NJ over detroit.
Kidd is the basic reason for that. again, the example earlie about Marbury was PRICELESS.
yes, without question marbury has more skills than Kidd, he is probably as fast as kidd, can jump as high as kidd, can pass almost as well, can shoot much much better and is just a pure out and out scorer, but i'd still rather have Kidd on my team than marbury. stats alone aren't everything.
if NJ gets that #2 spot, it could easily be NJ vs Detroit in the EC Championships.
detroit is favored to win it, but i think given good enough odds, 30 to 1 for example, i would take a chance and bet on NJ over detroit.
Kidd is the basic reason for that. again, the example earlie about Marbury was PRICELESS.
yes, without question marbury has more skills than Kidd, he is probably as fast as kidd, can jump as high as kidd, can pass almost as well, can shoot much much better and is just a pure out and out scorer, but i'd still rather have Kidd on my team than marbury. stats alone aren't everything.
iamme
Lifer
- Jul 21, 2001
- 21,058
- 3
- 0
a NJ v DET ECF's would be interesting. the nets have been on a hot streak and this the best time to be on one.
i would like to see any sort of rivalry between anyone other than det/mia in the east. det/indy isn't much anymore, now that artest is gone and indy sucks so bad right now.
a trio of detroit, miami, and the nets as the eastern powerhouses would be entertaining for the next few years. i do think that indy has a chance to become pretty good again, but their injuries just happen too often.
i would like to see any sort of rivalry between anyone other than det/mia in the east. det/indy isn't much anymore, now that artest is gone and indy sucks so bad right now.
a trio of detroit, miami, and the nets as the eastern powerhouses would be entertaining for the next few years. i do think that indy has a chance to become pretty good again, but their injuries just happen too often.
Kidd is a level above hardaway and KJ for sure. It's not really close when you look at their actual impact and the way they played. Forget stats. Kidd and Payton is arguable, to be honest I'd take Kidd just because of Payton's attitude. I think Payton's attitude removes him from being considered a player that truly makes other players great. Kidd's attitude is great, and this allows other players to trust him and want to compete for him.
Hardaway was a bit of a choker in the games I saw. He may have had a decent number of assists, but they weren't assists that created something out of nothing as often as Kidd's are. Some of those back door cut passes are absolutely criminal by Kidd. There's no way I would ever take Hardaway or KJ in a team oriented around fast breaks and princeton-style offense.
Payton proved and admitted that he does not operate well in a triangle offense. I am 99.9% certain that Kidd would be just as good in the triangle as any other system.
Another thing, Kidd is one of the very best rebounders you will ever see for a PG. Payton is decent, but Kidd is at another level. This is a very important aspect of PG. If the PG gets the rebound, he can run the fast break that much more quickly.
Also, Kidd may not be a great shooter, but he has that rare ability to improve his shooting and offensive play when the situation calls for it. In the playoffs with the nets, numerous times he stepped up his offensive game when the opposing team was playing pass protection defense. He makes big shots when it matters too. Sort of the opposite of tim hardaway.
Hardaway was a bit of a choker in the games I saw. He may have had a decent number of assists, but they weren't assists that created something out of nothing as often as Kidd's are. Some of those back door cut passes are absolutely criminal by Kidd. There's no way I would ever take Hardaway or KJ in a team oriented around fast breaks and princeton-style offense.
Payton proved and admitted that he does not operate well in a triangle offense. I am 99.9% certain that Kidd would be just as good in the triangle as any other system.
Another thing, Kidd is one of the very best rebounders you will ever see for a PG. Payton is decent, but Kidd is at another level. This is a very important aspect of PG. If the PG gets the rebound, he can run the fast break that much more quickly.
Also, Kidd may not be a great shooter, but he has that rare ability to improve his shooting and offensive play when the situation calls for it. In the playoffs with the nets, numerous times he stepped up his offensive game when the opposing team was playing pass protection defense. He makes big shots when it matters too. Sort of the opposite of tim hardaway.
slayer202
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2005
- 13,679
- 119
- 106
nets and heat would be good, as would nets and pistons. do you guys remember the year the pistons won the championship? I believe that was the same year that chauncey hit that halfcourt+ shot to push the game into overtime and they eventually won the game and the series. the nets should have won that game and series if it wasnt for a miracle shot....and the nets beat the pistons a couple weeks ago recently
I have provided stats of other players and I have mentioned other players right now who I think are better. I have stated that players have produced the same good assists totals as Jason Kidd and are or were much better offensive players. Now I have stated my opinion with stats and numbers and my overall feel for the game just like you. I have stated my opinion of the player just like you have stated your opinion. So the only irrelevant posts or just plain stupid posts is the one you just posted. Its not about trying to argue a persons knowledge, but prove me wrong where I just named two players who produced overall better numbers than Kidd who are not first year HOFs. And Kidd won't be either I don't think. Only time will tell.
I AM GOING ON THE RECORD, THERE HAVE BEEN FAR MORE DOMINATE PLAYERS THAN KIDD WHO DID NOT GET INTO THE HOF OR IN THEIR FIRST YEAR, SO THERE IS NO REASON FOR ME TO BELIEVE KIDD WILL EITHER GET IN OR GET IN HIS FIRST YEAR. DOES THAT MEAN HE'S GARBAGE, NO. DOES THAT MEAN I DON'T LIKE HIM AS A PLAYER, NO. I DON'T BELIEVE HE'S ELITE OR A LOCK HOF PLAYER.
And thats all I have to say on the matter.
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