Mormons

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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,285
14,704
146
dugweb...how can you defend what seems to be one of the best written novels from the 19th century, yet call ME ignorant? I may be highly opinionated, but that IS my right as an American...;)
I'm not a fan of any of the organized religions, and Mormons and Catholics are IMO at the bottom of the list. Mormons for their "invented" religion, and Catholics for the atrocities comited in "God's Name" over the past 2000 years by the Catholics. Remember the inquisition? How about the way they treated the "indiginous people" in the New World"? All for the "glory of God"...
 

dugweb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2002
3,935
1
81
Originally posted by: BoomerD
dugweb...how can you defend what seems to be one of the best written novels from the 19th century, yet call ME ignorant? I may be highly opinionated, but that IS my right as an American...;)
I'm not a fan of any of the organized religions, and Mormons and Catholics are IMO at the bottom of the list. Mormons for their "invented" religion, and Catholics for the atrocities comited in "God's Name" over the past 2000 years by the Catholics. Remember the inquisition? How about the way they treated the "indiginous people" in the New World"? All for the "glory of God"...

I didn't call you ignorant, i said you sound ignorant and hoped that wasn't the case. there's a difference ;)

but for the record, it's not your oppinions that make you sound ignorant, it's the assumption that your oppinons are fact that make you sound ignorant.

and why did you put "invented" in quotes? :confused:
 

engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
2,070
0
0
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
You can't spell mormons without "morons".

LOL!! Yeah, that's the truth sometimes. I'm sure I've been in that category on more than one occasion. Reminds me of a great phrase I heard once.

"There's no 'i' in team, but there are two in idiot." I love that.
 

msparish

Senior member
Aug 27, 2003
655
0
0
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: msparish
Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Just so you know, the Priesthood was not only prohibited from African American, but from all people not of Hebrew decent. Kind of the same thing that was in the Bible, except it was opened to more than just the tribe of Levi. Oh well, what are you going to do.

That is 100% false. The priesthood was denied to anyone who had even one drop of negro blood from their ancestors (pretty much the exact quote the church used). Everyone else could receive it.

Edit for clarification.

No, you are 100% false. Everyone else could not receive it, thank you very much. I had many friend of Hispanic decent who did not have the priesthood prior to that time, so please do not try to lecture me on thing you don't know enough about. Many of my friend did not have the priesthood prior to that time, so you are welcome to think what you will, but the facts are exactly as I have stated them.

I assure you, you don't know what you are talking about. Mormon's believe that Native Americans are of Hebrew descent. Hispanics are partially Native American, therefore according to Mormon doctrine, they are Hebrews. Possibly where you are getting confused, is that there were several from Latin America who could not receive the priesthood because they had black ancestors from the slave trade.

For example, a statement by the church in 1949:
The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time.

Notice they don't say, non-Hebrews. Just negroes. I have no idea where you came up with what you are talking about.
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
My wife used to be Mormon. Her family is Mormon (sort of, kinda like Easter christians.) It is a religion filled with lies and backpeddling. Go to http://www.exmormon.org to read about real life people with real experiences.

Somewhere out there exists a checklist to see if your religion is a cult. I did it, and the Mormon faith clearly finds itself as a cult. They will alienate you from your friends and family who are not Mormon. They will convince you to do more and more works for the Church, and if you don't do what they say, they will tell you that you are a bad member. I know many people who are ex-Mormons. It is a terrible religion.
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
Originally posted by: astrocase
By that definition though all religions are cults. Some are just worse than others.

That is not true. Most Christian religions tell you to befriend "the enemy" to try and convert them. However, my best friend dated a Mormon girl. When things started to get a little serious, her bishop instructed her to convince him to give up his non-Mormon friends. They broke up soon afterwards.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Here is a good checklist.

? Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

? Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

? The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry?or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). This one applies particularly to the Mormon religion. See: garments

? The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar?or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). My sister-in-law and her drug and porn addict ex-husband still think they are better than me because they are Mormon.

? The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. I've seen it first hand. You are not supposed to be friends with those that will not convert

? The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

? The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).Banning negroes in the mid 1900's, also see the Mountain Meadows Massacre

? The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. My sweet, 16 year old sis in law constantly feels this. Luckily it pushes her away.

? Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Again, see comments about breaking ties with family members/friends who are not members,

? The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. They go door to door talking to you about LDS

? The group is preoccupied with making money.

? Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. I had a friend leave the church because no matter how much time she spent doing activities, they wanted more time. She finally realized you don't go to heaven based upon your works.

? Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

? The most loyal members (the ?true believers?) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
 

engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
2,070
0
0
Originally posted by: msparish

I assure you, you don't know what you are talking about. Mormon's believe that Native Americans are of Hebrew descent. Hispanics are partially Native American, therefore according to Mormon doctrine, they are Hebrews. Possibly where you are getting confused, is that there were several from Latin America who could not receive the priesthood because they had black ancestors from the slave trade.

For example, a statement by the church in 1949:
The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time.

Notice they don't say, non-Hebrews. Just negroes. I have no idea where you came up with what you are talking about.

I assure you, I do. To be even more specific about it, Native american are of Hebrew decent, but most are of the tribe of Manasseh, not Ephraim. Originally, only those of the tribe of Ephraim were given the rights to the priesthood, partially in fulfillment of the prophecy that the first would be last and the last would be first, in regards to the conflict between Ephraim and Judah. Ephraim was the be the first to receive the priesthood after the restoration of the Gospel. That is reason it was denied to anyone who was not a member of the Tribe of Ephraim. I stated Hebrew earlier in an attempt to keep it on a lower level, but there it is.

As for the statement, they were not asked about all races, only the negro race. Why would they bother talking about other races when asked specifically about one?

You sir are wrong. You keep telling yourself whatever you need to to make yourself feel better or worse about the situation. Fact still remains, black were not the only ones denied the priesthood.
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
From a non-denominational website that may help answer your questions. Sorry it is so long.

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long? NOTES

In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians. NOTES


Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.


The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars." NOTES


Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.



Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.

Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book. NOTES


Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet NOTES. A recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church and its "prophet, seer and revelator" accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide. NOTES


The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. NOTES Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it. NOTES


Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); NOTES
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); NOTES
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); NOTES
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); NOTES

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.


Joseph Smith's early revelations were collected and first published in 1833 in the Book of Commandments. God (as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants Sections 1 and 67) supposedly testified by revelation that the revelations as published were true and correct. Because the Book of Commandments did not receive wide distribution (most copies were destroyed by angry opponents of the Mormons in Missouri, where it was published), they were republished - with additional revelations - as the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio. However, many of the revelations as published in Kirtland differed fundamentally from their versions as originally given. The changes generally gave more power and authority to Smith, and justified changes he was making in church organization and theology. The question naturally arises as to why revelations which God had pronounced correct needed to be revised. NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up. NOTES

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version. NOTES

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box. NOTES


Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred. NOTES


Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God." NOTES


Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history. NOTES


Mormonism includes many other unusual doctrines which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These doctrines are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES


God was once a man like us.
God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
"God" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament.
In the the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
The Bible was produced by God, not by the Catholic church.

Are you including all the gospels in this, or just the ones agreed upon at the time of Constantine?
 

Alienwho

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2001
6,766
0
76
Originally posted by: pinion9
Originally posted by: astrocase
By that definition though all religions are cults. Some are just worse than others.

That is not true. Most Christian religions tell you to befriend "the enemy" to try and convert them. However, my best friend dated a Mormon girl. When things started to get a little serious, her bishop instructed her to convince him to give up his non-Mormon friends. They broke up soon afterwards.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Here is a good checklist.

? Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

? Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

? The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry?or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). This one applies particularly to the Mormon religion. See: garments

? The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar?or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). My sister-in-law and her drug and porn addict ex-husband still think they are better than me because they are Mormon.

? The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. I've seen it first hand. You are not supposed to be friends with those that will not convert

? The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

? The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).Banning negroes in the mid 1900's, also see the Mountain Meadows Massacre

? The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. My sweet, 16 year old sis in law constantly feels this. Luckily it pushes her away.

? Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Again, see comments about breaking ties with family members/friends who are not members,

? The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. They go door to door talking to you about LDS

? The group is preoccupied with making money.

? Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. I had a friend leave the church because no matter how much time she spent doing activities, they wanted more time. She finally realized you don't go to heaven based upon your works.

? Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

? The most loyal members (the ?true believers?) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
Your entire post is nothing but lies and slanted propoganda and is completely false. There is nothing else that can possibly be said about it.

If you still feel you are correct, please post official church documentation backing up your claims.
 

6000SUX

Golden Member
May 8, 2005
1,504
0
0
Originally posted by: Alienwho
Your entire post is nothing but lies and slanted propoganda and is completely false. There is nothing else that can possibly be said about it.

If you still feel you are correct, please post official church documentation backing up your claims.

Joseph Smith was a con artist who made good IMHO. How do you explain all the things in pinion9's last post? I mean, the patently fake Egyptian "grammar" etc. etc. etc.?
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
Originally posted by: Alienwho
[Your entire post is nothing but lies and slanted propoganda and is completely false. There is nothing else that can possibly be said about it.

If you still feel you are correct, please post official church documentation backing up your claims.

That is a generic checklist that can be used for any religion. I have been around the religion. I have had the insiders view as an outsider. I am able to put a check in almost every one of those boxes based upon experience.

Tell me, what religion, set in stone by God, changes its values over time? If this was God's word, why have so many practices been abolished, such as barring blacks? What about the polygamy? At once it was okay, now it isn't. Please explain to me the Meadows Massacre. Please explain to me why the Mormon rituals VERY closely resemble many of the Freemason rituals.

Religions like Mormon and Scientology serve a purpose. They gather weak minded people into a group and stamp them so we all know they cannot think for themselves.

 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: Scourge
Originally posted by: BlancoNino
What does everyone know (or think they know) about this church? I've been thinking about joining on the basis that they seem to be the purest of all chuches and getting to go across the world on a funded mission would be pretty fun.

I know quite a bit about the religion now, but I'm here to discuss some of the myths and fallacies about mormons and the LDS church...and I'm here to defend it.

Well, what's everyones thoughts?

If you're looking for a good background, especially of the extreme fundamentalist of the religion, take a look at Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. The book was very interesting, and will give you a perspective on the 'other' side of the religion, so to speak.

Every religion is going to have things its not proud of, things done in its name that most people disagree with, but that does not mean that things like that should be covered up and ignored. If you're seriously looking at joining, I know I would want to take a look at everything involved.

Also, are you sure that they fund the missions? I've been under the impression that those are on your dime, and that people are expected to donate 10% of what they make to the church. I could be wrong about them funding the missions, maybe its partially paid for if you go overseas(Not all of the missions are overseas by any means, and I don't think you have much say in where you go).


On the other hand, your average LDS member is generally a really good person. The church has a ton of flaws in my mind, but the 'average' person is better than average in terms of what they do for the community, how they treat other people, etc. That's not to say that you need to join the church to be a good person, or that everyone within the church is a good person.

I have noticed this too. the Mormons i have know were very nice, polite and over all great people.
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
One more thing. Don't believe that it is the fastest growing religion. They count non-members in their membership. It is like Hotel California. You can enter, but you can never leave. My wife has been inactive for about 5 years, married to a non-member, and they still have her on file as a member.

 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
Here is a good story I heard from a Church member. It really creeps her out.

Being a married woman in the temple, you are required to always wear your garments. As a matter of fact, when changing your garment, you are supposed to remove the garment from one leg, put the new garment on that leg, then remove your other leg from the garment, etc. That way you aren't ever without it (unless bathing.) Anyhow, this woman would visit her Bishop and he would give her a hug. When hugging her, he would pat her back and feel for the garment (they have a heavy seem.) This is how he could tell if his people were following the laws... Doesn't seem like a big deal, but it really is a big deal.

On another note, my father in law performs some weird ritual when disposing of old garments, which includes cutting the crotch out with scissors and burning the garment.

Is this really a religion you want into?
 

Alienwho

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2001
6,766
0
76
Tell me, what religion, set in stone by God, changes its values over time? If this was God's word, why have so many practices been abolished, such as barring blacks? What about the polygamy?
This is a hard question to answer without knowing a little bit about you. Are you religious? If so what are your beliefs?

You tell me, why don't any Christian religions still follow the old testament to the T? Performing all the daily rituals, shunning those not of the faith, stoning those who break the commandments as well as making burnt offerings/sacrifices constantly?

Maybe sometimes God does adapts his teaching styles to different cultures and peoples. The ancient pre-christ jews were so hard headed and oblivious to God's teachings that he had to constantly remind them to think of him and worship him by having them obey ritual sacrifices and obey certain laws that seem graphic/stupid/unfair to us in our day. Jesus changed that by teaching tolerance and love for other people, he taught that the sacrifices symbolized something more, and he hoped that the people were ready to understand and take the next step (rather than performing sacrifices forever, he hoped they could remember the point of the sacrifice and build on their knowledge). He was preparing them for bigger and better things. How can we progress (which is the point to this life) if we are forced to do the same things forever? Baby steps. Building blocks.
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
Originally posted by: astrocase
This is why I'm not into organized religion.

Organized religion is pathetic....

I agree. I don't need a spokesman for God. I can read and interpret the Bible for myself. I hate organized religion and everything it stands for.
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
1,201
0
0
Originally posted by: Alienwho
Tell me, what religion, set in stone by God, changes its values over time? If this was God's word, why have so many practices been abolished, such as barring blacks? What about the polygamy?
This is a hard question to answer without knowing a little bit about you. Are you religious? If so what are your beliefs?

You tell me, why don't any Christian religions still follow the old testament to the T? Performing all the daily rituals, shunning those not of the faith, stoning those who break the commandments as well as making burnt offerings/sacrifices constantly?

Maybe sometimes God does adapts his teaching styles to different cultures and peoples. The ancient pre-christ jews were so hard headed and oblivious to God's teachings that he had to constantly remind them to think of him and worship him by having them obey ritual sacrifices and obey certain laws that seem graphic/stupid/unfair to us in our day. Jesus changed that by teaching tolerance and love for other people, he taught that the sacrifices symbolized something more, and he hoped that the people were ready to understand and take the next step (rather than performing sacrifices forever, he hoped they could remember the point of the sacrifice and build on their knowledge). He was preparing them for bigger and better things. How can we progress (which is the point to this life) if we are forced to do the same things forever? Baby steps. Building blocks.

Building blocks over thousands of years, not the course of a century. Isn't God's word absolute? How can he change this 180 degrees? "We don't accept blacks" to "Welcome all ye negros" seems like an about face. Funny that it just happened to conincide with the politics of America at the time...
 

pinion9

Banned
May 5, 2005
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The fact of the matter is that Joseph Smith was a con-artist. He was into get-rich-quick schemes and those that were in his way were killed. Almost all Mormon rituals mimic those of the Freemasons and other religions. It is a crock, and it takes a complete fool (read: blind, unquestioning, unthinking faith) to buy into all the stories. You ask any good Mormon about all of the early hoaxes and they avoid the subject. No reply.
 

Alienwho

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: pinion9
Originally posted by: Alienwho
Tell me, what religion, set in stone by God, changes its values over time? If this was God's word, why have so many practices been abolished, such as barring blacks? What about the polygamy?
This is a hard question to answer without knowing a little bit about you. Are you religious? If so what are your beliefs?

You tell me, why don't any Christian religions still follow the old testament to the T? Performing all the daily rituals, shunning those not of the faith, stoning those who break the commandments as well as making burnt offerings/sacrifices constantly?

Maybe sometimes God does adapts his teaching styles to different cultures and peoples. The ancient pre-christ jews were so hard headed and oblivious to God's teachings that he had to constantly remind them to think of him and worship him by having them obey ritual sacrifices and obey certain laws that seem graphic/stupid/unfair to us in our day. Jesus changed that by teaching tolerance and love for other people, he taught that the sacrifices symbolized something more, and he hoped that the people were ready to understand and take the next step (rather than performing sacrifices forever, he hoped they could remember the point of the sacrifice and build on their knowledge). He was preparing them for bigger and better things. How can we progress (which is the point to this life) if we are forced to do the same things forever? Baby steps. Building blocks.

Building blocks over thousands of years, not the course of a century. Isn't God's word absolute? How can he change this 180 degrees? "We don't accept blacks" to "Welcome all ye negros" seems like an about face. Funny that it just happened to conincide with the politics of America at the time...
And what has happened technology wise over the past century?! More than those thousands of years before hand! Tenfold! Who has more similar lifestyles: People from our day (Cars, airplanes, spacetravel) compared to people 150 years ago (horse and buggy). Or people from the 1800's (horse and buggy) compared to people at the time of christ (hmmm..horse and chariot?)

I agree. I don't need a spokesman for God. I can read and interpret the Bible for myself. I hate organized religion and everything it stands for.
Well if your interpretation skills were up to par you'd realize that you DO need a spokesman to God. Oh but i'm sure you only interpret the parts of the bible you feel like.
 

msparish

Senior member
Aug 27, 2003
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Originally posted by: engineereeyore
I assure you, I do. To be even more specific about it, Native american are of Hebrew decent, but most are of the tribe of Manasseh, not Ephraim. Originally, only those of the tribe of Ephraim were given the rights to the priesthood, partially in fulfillment of the prophecy that the first would be last and the last would be first, in regards to the conflict between Ephraim and Judah. Ephraim was the be the first to receive the priesthood after the restoration of the Gospel. That is reason it was denied to anyone who was not a member of the Tribe of Ephraim. I stated Hebrew earlier in an attempt to keep it on a lower level, but there it is.

You couldn't be more wrong. Find me one statement in an official church publication that says what you just did. You won't be able to find it. Better yet, find a statement by Brigham Young about denying the priesthood to those who were not of Ephraim (as that is about the time it started). Brigham Young has dozens of statements about the situation. Every single time he speaks of those who were descended from Cain. Brigham Young taught that it was a punishment because Cain killed Abel. Thus, the seed of Cain would never hold the priesthood until the seed of Abel had been redeemed (which is why most leaders in the church expected that the priesthood ban on blacks would not be lifted until after the resurrection). Who received the priesthood had absolutley nothing to do with which tribe you were from, but if you were descended from Cain.

Prove to me otherwise (you won't be able to).
 

msparish

Senior member
Aug 27, 2003
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engineereeyore, here is an overview of the priesthood ban from a pro-mormon source: Text


Q. Why couldn't black men hold the Priesthood in the Mormon Church before 1978?

A. Some black men did hold the Mormon Priesthood before 1978! But except in the case of Elijah Abel and his descendants, all men of Hamitic lineage (bloodline) were forbidden to hold the LDS Priesthood before 1978. However, black-skinned men of non-Hamitic lineages, like the Dravidians of India, the Aborigines of Australia, the Melansians of Fiji and Melanesia, and the Negritoes of the Philipines and Indonesia, all had a right to the Priesthood, and those who were worthy Members of the Church held it before 1978. Also, white-skinned Hamites could not hold the Priesthood or partake of the higher ordinances of Mormon Temples until 1978.

The Priesthood~Ban

The Priesthood-ban, as it is called, wasn't really a question of skin-color but of lineage or bloodline. Anyone having one drop of Hamitic lineage was denied the Priesthood (if he was male--only men can hold the Mormon Priesthood), and whether male or female denied the higher ordinances of Mormon Temples. That changed via a Revelation from the LORD in 1978. Since that time, men of Hamitic lineage have received the Priesthood, and all Hamites can receive all the ordinances, blessings, and offices in the Church that anyone else can.

The Priesthood-ban was based upon several verses in a book of Mormon Scripture called The Book of Abraham, which is in a volume of scripture known as The Pearl of Great Price; which, along with the Bible, The Book of Mormon, and The Doctrine & Covenants, is one of the four Standard Works of the LDS Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith claimed to have divinely translated The Book of Abraham from some ancient Egyptian papyrus he came accross in the late 1830s. The papyrus came from Thebes, and included some Egyptian funeral texts. Joseph Smith studied these, and received the revelation we know call The Book of Abraham. In the first chapter of that small book Abraham writes that Pharoah, the king of Egypt, was "a righteous man", but could not hold the Priesthood because he was a descendants of Ham, and the Hamitic lineage or bloodline was "blessed with wisdom" but "cursed as pertaining to the Priesthood" (Abraham 1:26). In another revelation of Joseph Smith, called The Book of Moses, also in The Pearl of Great Price, it says that the Cainites, the descendants of Cain, the son of Adam, were "black" (Moses 7:22).

From the time of Brigham Young onward, Mormon Church Presidents (whom Mormons believe to be Prophets, Seers, and Revelators of the LORD) have interpreted these verses as Negroes being of the Cainite/Hamitic bloodline, and would not be allowed to hold the Priesthood until the Abelites first had the opportunity. A brief explanation of the Curse of Cain and a brief overview of it's history in the LDS Church is as follows:

1. Cain, the eldest son of Adam, had the birthright to the Holy Priesthood. He and his descendants (the Cainites) had the right to receive it first. But Cain offerred a sacrifice to the LORD in a state of unworthiness, or wickedness. The LORD did not accept this offerring, but rejected it. Because Abel's offerring was made in a state of worthiness, or righteousness, the LORD accepted Abel's offering, and Cain lost his birthright to Abel; his younger brother.

2. Cain, being jealous and angry, decided to kill Abel; mistakenly thinking that the birthright to the Priesthood would revert back to him. After this was done, the LORD cursed Cain; made him a wandering upon the earth, and put a 'mark' upon him so that anyone recognizing him would not kill him. The 'mark' of Cain was a black skin. This was not the curse, but actually a mark of protection from the LORD. The ground would not yield fruit for him. He was to wander the earth. This is known as "The Curse of Cain".

3. Instead of Cains descendants receiving the birthright first, they would receive it last. The first shall be last, and the last shall be first. The Cainites would be banned from receiving the Priesthood until Abel was resurrected, had children, and all of Abel's children received it first. Then the curse would be removed from the descendants of Cain, and they would receive the Priesthood and all the blessings thereof.

4. The Sethites (the descendants of Seth--the third son of Adam and Eve) and the Cainites (the descendants of Cain) were not allowed to intermarry. However, this did happen. The result was corruption, and the LORD decided to destroy the Adamites in a great flood. He chose Noah to save himself, his wife, and his sons, and their wives; along with two of every kind of useful animal in the Ark. According to Mormon teachings, the wife of Ham was Egyptus: a Cainite woman. Thus, the Cainite bloodline, or lineage, continued through the Flood. The descendants of Ham and his Cainite wife Egyptus were Mizraim, Cush, Put, and Canaan. The descendants of Mizraim, Cush, and Put settled in North Africa. Mizraim is the Hebrew name for "Egypt". Cush is the Hebrew name for Nubia (now Sudan), and Put is thought to have settled in what is now the Ethiopia region. Joseph Smith believed that Negroes were "the sons of Cain" (i.e. the descendants of Cain), and most Mormon Presidents and Apostles have had the same belief. That would mean that black Africans are Cainites (descendants of Cain through Egyptus, the wife of Ham), and Sethites (the descendants of Noah via Ham) as well as Hamites (the descendants of Ham). The Canaanites did not settle in North African, but in the land of Canaan; which is now called Israel, or Palestine.

5. Elijah Abel, a black man of African descent, and his male descendants, have always had the Holy Priesthood. This is explained because Elijah Abel was of such great faith, that the LORD made an exception in his case and with his descendants. There is a similar situation in the Bible in The Book of Ruth. Because the Moabites (a white-skinned people who were the descendants of Lot, the nephew of Abraham) did not give food or water to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt into the desert, the LORD cursed them; proclaiming that a Moabite would not enter the Congregation of the LORD until the 10th generation. However, Ruth, a 1st generation Moabitess, showed such great faith that the LORD made an exception, and she became an Israelite. Jesus Himself was a descendant of Ruth and Obed. The descendants of Elijah Abel are all white; because Abel's sons and daughters married white Mormons back in the late 19th century.

6. Hamites, of whatever skin-color, could not hold the Priesthood or partake of the Higher Ordinances of Mormon Temples; which include Endowments and Sealings. However, they could enter Mormon Temples to be baptized for the dead. They could be Members of the Church. But they could not serve as missionaries. From the 1840s to the early 1960s the Church never had more than 1000 black Members of African descent. However, in the mid-1960s some black Africans started to receive visions in which Jesus or an angel told them about the Church. Some of these black Africans began to find information about the Church, and to preach and form entire congregations, and sometimes theirown denominations with tens of thousands of black Africans as members. They called themselves 'Mormons' and 'Latter-day Saints'. The Church tried to encourage these people, but the men were not ordained to the Priesthood.

7. In the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s the Church received much negative media attention because of the Priesthood-ban. The Church issued strong statements condemning racism, and encouraging its Members to stand for the civil-rights of all Americans; but they also declared that the Priesthood-ban was of the LORD, that it had nothing to do with the 'civil-rights' of Americans, and that only the LORD, the Author of the ban, could lift it.

8. In 1978, the Church was building a Temple in Sao Paulo, Brasil. At that time there were tens of thousands of Mulatto Mormons in Brasil; people with both white and black ancestry. These people had great faith, and sacrificed much to build the Temple in Sao Paulo; the largest city in Brazil. Many of these people knew that they would be allowed in the Temple, but could not partake of the most important ordinances in them. Yet, they still sacrificed to build it. Seeing the exceeding faith of these Mulatto Saints, the General Authorities of the Chuch, who are called "The Brethren", prayed for months that the Priesthood-ban be finally lifted. On June 1st, 1978, in the Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple, the LORD communicated to President Spencer W. Kimball, and He lifted the Priesthood-ban from off the Hamitic lineage. The vast great majority of Mormons were overjoyed at the news. Only a few weeks later, the first black men of African lineage since Elijah Abel and his descendants were ordained to the Priesthood, and they and their families soon thereafter received the Higher Ordinances of the Temple.

This Priesthood-ban has been refered to by Mormons as:

1. The Curse of Cain (the son of Adam)
2. The Curse of Egyptus (the wife of Ham)
3. The Curse of Pharoah (the righteous son of Ham and Egyptus and king of Egypt)
4. The Priesthood-ban (i.e. Hamites being 'banned' from the Priesthood until 1978)

Some Members of the Church, both black and white, don't believe that the Curse of Cain was of God. They believe it was a misinterpretation by the Apostles and Presidents of the Church, and that it never should have happened. Others believe that the Church 'never really taught' this doctrine, but that it was merely the opinion of some of the Members, or perhaps a few of the Apostles. Yet, a close examination of all the historical data reveals that the Priesthood-ban was based solely upon the Curse of Cain Doctrine, and that it was always presented by Church leaders as a "doctrine of the Church" from the very beginning. At no time was it ever put forth as mere opinion or speculation. Some in the Church believe that the Curse of Cain Doctrine was an invention of Brigham Young, the 2nd President of the Church, and not the Prophet Joseph Smith. Yet, the evidence shows that it probably originated with Joseph Smith. He was the translator of The Book of Abraham; where it says that Pharoah was of Hamitic lineage, which lineage was "blessed with wisdom" but "cursed as pertaining to the Priesthood" (Abraham 1:26). Also, in a debate he had with John C. Bennett, the first Mayor of Nauvoo, on who had the greater cause of complaint against the white man, Indians (native Americans) or Negroes, the Prophet said "that the Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the Negroes or sons of Cain." (History of the Church 4:501)

Mormons who accept the Curse of Cain Doctrine, and the resulting Priesthood-ban, as from the LORD also believe that both are now irrelevant; since the Priesthood-ban was lifted in 1978 by the LORD's revelation to President Spencer W. Kimball. But they also believe that the past shouldn't be forgotten; just understood. Since 1978, worthy black males in the Church have been ordained to the Priesthood. One of them, Helvecio Martins of Brazil, who joined the Church before black men could be ordained to the Priesthood, became a General Authority in the Church in 1990. He became a Member of the 2nd Quorum of Seventy; which is the 5th highest quorum in the Church.