Mormonism, LDS, I'm trying to learn about them

[MBony]

Thanks to everyone who has posted here. I'm at work so I haven't been able to fully take in all that is being said here, but it seems like this has been a mature conversation and I really appreciate it.

 

[bobbybe01]

I'm not saying it's unbiased, but it does bring up points that are controversial for a Mormon to believe

Okay, we're on the same page then.

Here are some tactics that "anti-Mormons" use: here

Here's a quote from an article from the 1997 Evangelical Theological Society Far West Annual Meeting, "Mormon Apologetics, Scholoarship and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?"

The evangelical world needs to wake up and respond to contemporary Mormon scholarship. If not, we will lose the battle without ever knowing it. Our suggestions are as follows: First, evangelicals need to overcome innaccurate presumptitions about Mormonism. Second, evangelical counter-cultists need to refer LDS scholarship that is beyond their ability to rebut, to qualified persons. Third, evangelical academians need to make Mormonism, or some aspects of it, an area of professional interest. Fourth, evangelical publishers need to cease publishing works that are uninformed, misleasding and otherwise inadequate. Fifth, scholars in the evangelical community ought to collaborate in several books addressing the issues being raised...The fact is that the growth of Mormonism is outpacing even the highest predictions of professional sociologists of religion...

How come we don't see the Mormon church pumping out books against other churches? Why do some find it necessary to keep attacking the LDS church? To expose it? To show the real truth? Please help me understand this.

 

[Homerboy]

I have many friends that are LDSers... in fact I play basketball every Tuesday night (tonight ya!!) with them at their church. Its me (the Catholic) versus them (the Mormons).

As someone previoulsy mentioned, the LDS are the nicest, most giving people you can ever imagine. I've never met a collective group of people, not even in my own church that were more open and pleasant to be around.

In the years that I have known them they have NEVER been pushy or try to "convert" me. In fact its a running joke (ex: While playing hoops: "That shot would have gone in if you'd jsut get baptized Joe... the pool is right in the next room... we can do it now if you like" Meanwhile if I score I will proclaim "thats for the Pope!")

They have come and blessed our children when going in for surgery (hey it cant hurt can it?) Broguth us dinners after the birth of our children. You name it. They have given and given and given and never expected anythign back in return. Heck my wife and I actually had to ask THEM for a copy of The Book of Mormon to read (PURELY for intrest... more on that in a bit)

They are very open about talking to you about their religion and discussing the "issues" with you. And will even concurr with you when something seems whacky or odd. Obviously I have to do the same when it comes to "defending" Catholicism.... damn those Priest scandals!

When I started to read the Book of Mormon, one of the things that first jumped out at me was the the first X number of pages were people swearing that they saw these things happen to John Smith and they were indeed true. It just seemed odd to me that the VERY first thing that they do is defend themselves. Then again I guess if your always under fire...

I read some of the book, then realized I needed cliff notes, so I borrowed their Kids' books and read through them. While at first nearly everything in there seemed WAY WAY WAY off the wall I came to realize that it really is no crazier than anything any other religion preaches and teaches.

to each their own is what I decided... if their belief makes them happy and mine makes me happy so be it.

But damn those Mormons are nice people...

 

[thomsbrain]

well for starters, they aren't christians.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
well for starters, they aren't christians.

:roll:

 

[dquan97]

Originally posted by: Homerboy
But damn those Mormons are nice people...

I know...I dated the bishop's daughter before :Q

 

[bobbybe01]

Originally posted by: Atomicus
lol you don't get it. He was a regular guy who interpreted the bible differently and wrote his own perverted version! He then published it called "Book of Mormon". I don't recall prophets having to publish their own works, rather their own experiences were documented by people of the faith. It was obvious that other Christians knew he was a liar and a blasphemer, thus keeping his tainted words from entering the real Bible. That is the most probable cause for him to publish his book.

He and his followers were even charged with fraud, larceny, and other crimes! And you know what? THEY FLED! Google, I don't care where you get it from, read a biography, THEY FLED FROM PRISON! He must've been too righteous for jail right? The bible tells you that there is the law of the land and law up in heaven and that you must obey the law of the land unless it doesn't oppose the heavenly one.

OK, enough of this. It's obvious some of you are those people who are WAY too opened minded for your own good. He and his bunch were crooks; legal evidence of it and them actually evading the law unlawfully is a clear cut sign of their convictions.

I was going to ignore your post but I felt it wouldn't hurt to correct some misunderstanding here. My responses to your statements (quoted) will be in bold.

"He was a regular guy who interpreted the bible differently and wrote his own perverted version! He then published it called "Book of Mormon."

True it is that Joseph Smith did translate portions of the King James version of the Bible (commonly called the Inspired Version) which began in June 1830. (source: LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 717 "Joseph Smith Translation"). However, there have been many different translations of the Bible since then by other Christians so I won't argue that. However, The Book of Mormon is an ancient record written by Jews on the American continent.

In the Book of Mormon, a prophet wrote: "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophecy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins" (2 Nephi 25:26).

And another prophet wrote: "And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever" (Either 12:41).

"I don't recall prophets having to publish their own works, rather their own experiences were documented by people of the faith."

Well the New Testament mainly is composed of what? Epistles written by Paul to the saints in different areas. However, Joseph Smith did have a scribe and he hardly penned anything for The Doctrine and Covenants, but would dictate what needed to be said to his scribes. Hopefully that fits your criteria.

"It was obvious that other Christians knew he was a liar and a blasphemer, thus keeping his tainted words from entering the real Bible. That is the most probable cause for him to publish his book." Huh?

"He and his followers were even charged with fraud, larceny, and other crimes! And you know what? THEY FLED! Google, I don't care where you get it from, read a biography, THEY FLED FROM PRISON! He must've been too righteous for jail right? The bible tells you that there is the law of the land and law up in heaven and that you must obey the law of the land unless it doesn't oppose the heavenly one"

Pardon me? Uh, didn't you know that Paul, Peter, John, Stephan (all in the New Testament) and Joseph (in the Old Testament) were jailed? Oh, I guess they were too wicked because they were in prison illegally. Of course Mormons believe in obeying the law of the land, check out the 12th Article of Faith.

You might also be interested in what the State of Illinois had to say about the Mormons "fleeing": read it here

 

[Eli]

I thought this was going to be a thread about taking drugs at church.

/leaves thread disappointed

 

[Eavan]

Kingdom of the Cults, from what I have read of it, is similar in content to movies such as The Godmakers, though the Godmakers regularly borders on the ridiculous...both are highly biased against Mormons...and yes, those 3 examples are direct excerpts from LDS scripture and the teachings of joseph smith, but are put in such a context as to be misinterpreted by the reader who is unfamiliar with LDS doctrine and beliefs. It is no stranger than many other religions throughout the world. Of course that doesn't stop our fundamentalist buddies from marching Salt Lake City's Temple Square twice a year for the Mormon's religious conference with signs like "You're going to hell, Mormon" and "The Devil's Religion!". I think I saw some of the same guys marching on the Gay Pride Parade..."You're going to hell, F*g".... lucky protestors...it must be great to know the eternal destination of random strangers. I thought only God could do that.

Text

or http://www.bibleman.net/christia.htm

 

[rahvin]

There are enough defenders of the faith in here that I won't bother posting as I will be cordened off in the anti camp. If you want to talk to an ex-mormon you can pm me.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: VictorLazlo
Almost. There are 3 levels of heaven, all of which kick ass.

You should write tour guides for a living

Originally posted by: rahvin
There are enough defenders of the faith in here that I won't bother posting as I will be cordened off in the anti camp. If you want to talk to an ex-mormon you can pm me.

If you post well thought-out, non-inflammatory questions or comments, I doubt it will end up being a flame-fest. I'd post something, but I'm unsure if my source is factual, or just one of those "OMG TEH MORMONS ARE EVIL BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE _____!!!" rumors.

 

[bobbybe01]

If you post well thought-out, non-inflammatory questions or comments, I doubt it will end up being a flame-fest. I'd post something, but I'm unsure if my source is factual, or just one of those "OMG TEH MORMONS ARE EVIL BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE _____!!!" rumors.

That, and as long as nobody gets into too much about the temple.

 

[UsandThem]

Originally posted by: VictorLazlo

Originally posted by: Atomicus
Mormonism was founded by a MAN named Joseph Smith Jr. who claimed to be a modern-day prophet. Called Church of Latter Day Saint and believes that when one dies, they become a God-like spirit and have "celestial" sex (which is what their polygamy stems from).

No offense, but the more you look into it, the more absurd that crap should become. Don't get sucked in.

Polygamy dates back to the time when the Mormons first settled in Utah. It was a long journey from Illinois to Utah, and many of the pilgrims walked the entire way (in winter, no less). Many of the men died pulling hand carts across the plains. When they finally got settled, there was a disproportionate number of women to men. Plural marriages were allowed so that all the women had a roof over their heads. Once the population evened-out, the practice was banned.

They just didn't decide to travel to Utah in winter. They were forced out. Joseph Smith was thrown in jail, and a mob broke in and killed him. In 1836, Smith established a bank - Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company. He then began issuing notes that had no backing. Within two the dollar noes dropped in value to just 12.5 cents. He sent his "apostiles" to several other states where they were still accepted at the inflated rate, and used them. As you could imagine, this not make people happy (except Smith).
In 1845, Brigham Young and others were indicted in Illinois for counterfeiting. That was when they made their trek to their "promised land".


On the subject of polgamy, the mormons continued that practice into Utah. Brigham Young himself was said to have had 70 wives and 56 children. This practice was only stopped because the Federal Government would deny Utah statehood, and would send in the military to put a stop to it.

The one way you can figure out if it is a cult or not is just to read the last page in the bible. A quick summary - It states that nobody will take away or add to the bible. Smith added quite a bit.

I have talked to several mormons. They were nice and polite. The missionaries give up a lot for two years to spread their message. However, it is simply a cult.

A good book to read on this subject is Mormonism - Doctrines of the Devils No.2 by Salem Kirban

 

[bobbybe01]

UsandThem, expect my reply shortly.

 

[UsandThem]

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
UsandThem, expect my reply shortly.

Uh-oh:beer:

 

[Amorphus]

Notes on Mormonism and polygamy:

"Spirit Babies" - souls which are just floating around without much in the way of physical bodies. Ergo, women must birth babies (baby factory... barefoot and pregnant, anyone?) to provide "homes" for these spirits.

Polygamy was official church teaching for awhile - kosher by all standards, and even encouraged. However, in order for Utah to become a state, the US government gave them an ultimatum to disallow polygamy. Whoops, Joseph Smith comes out of his room one day and says "God told me we should only have one spouse, men." What a coincidence, God following the schedule of men. :roll:

Pheno- and genotypically, the American Indians (Native Americans) are asian. However, Mormonism's (Joseph Smith's) history teaches that after Jesus left the earth, some Jews got in a boat and sailed west, where they found present-day North America. Middle East != Asia

I like cheese.

 

[Ornery]

The Mormon church, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, is only one of more than a hundred different church organizations which sprang from the work of Joseph Smith, Jr. beginning in 1830.

• The largest of these other churches is the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) headquartered in Independence, Missouri.
  
  They were awarded the "Kirtland Temple" (Joseph Smith?s first temple built in Kirtland, Ohio in 1836) when a court declared them the legal continuation of Joseph Smith's original church. Recently they completed building their second temple in Independence, Missouri. Both RLDS temples are open to the public. (Mormons have built numerous temples around the world, all closed to the public.)

My dad is a priest in the RLDS, which is now factioned again. They are currently called "The Community Of Christ". The Kirtland Temple is about 3 or 4 miles from here. We were married in its garden.

I've always found it interesting what the court decided, about awarding the Kirtland Temple to the RLDS, instead of the LDS.

 

[UsandThem]

Originally posted by: UsandThem

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
UsandThem, expect my reply shortly.

Uh-oh:beer:

And just for the record, I wan't to clarify something.

When I use the word cult, I don't mean a crazy Jim Jones cult. I use the term after what I have read (including most of the Book of Mormon and others). I even went to a Mormon Museum in Omaha (or Council Bluffs, IA - it's been a while and can't remember). I listened to several hours of their history (according to them). I even went to three of the Sunday services, and let the missionaries present their little training guides.

I just don't believe any of it. They were very nice as I said, but I just don't believe any of it. Its great they do, but you can't teach an old dog a new trick (or convince him that Joseph Smith was a Prophet).

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: UsandThem

Originally posted by: UsandThem

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
UsandThem, expect my reply shortly.

Uh-oh:beer:

And just for the record, I wan't to clarify something.

When I use the word cult, I don't mean a crazy Jim Jones cult. I use the term after what I have read (including most of the Book of Mormon and others). I even went to a Mormon Museum in Omaha (or Council Bluffs, IA - it's been a while and can't remember). I listened to several hours of their history (according to them). I even went to three of the Sunday services, and let the missionaries present their little training guides.

I just don't believe any of it. They were very nice as I said, but I just don't believe any of it. Its great they do, but you can't teach an old dog a new trick (or convince him that Joseph Smith was a Prophet).

I'm with you on this on one really I am.

 

[bobbybe01]

As far as the Kirtland banking fiasco, I found this link: The Church as a Corporation The best answer I can give personally at the moment (it ist getting late and I'm getting tired, but I'll look it up for my personal information, I will try to give a response tomorrow, but no promise) that human mistakes and so on doesn't mean that he wasn't a prophet.

At least you understand 1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (click here to read it). Only the Spirit can really convince anyone truly that Joseph Smith was who he claimed he was, etc.

Nevertheless, I have a hard time understanding what you're defining as a "cult." It could be possible that any religion, any Christian denomination, could be a "cult." Even the church in its younger age in the New Testament, could very well have be defined as a "cult" by the Jews, Romans, and Pagans.

You'll be happy to know that the missionaries do not present the doctrines of the church in a methodical, systematic order anymore.

Regarding what you said earlier:

The one way you can figure out if it is a cult or not is just to read the last page in the bible. A quick summary - It states that nobody will take away or add to the bible. Smith added quite a bit.

I'm sure others have answered this question to you before and I know the websites that I have listed earlier can answer it more thoroghly. You must be referrings to Revelations 22:19-21, which says that nobody should add to this book of prophecy, and if they do, they'll be cursed. Okay, fair enough, right? You must remember that The term "The Bible" is derived from the Greek ta biblia "the book" which is a neuter plural, was really regarded as a feminine singular, and it really means "the books." Under your arguement, the Bible would have ended at Deuteronomy 4:2, which says: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

But let's be fair because we both accept the Bible as it is presently consituted, Old and New Testament. In the Book of Mormon, a prophet sees a vision somewhat similiar to what John the Revelator recorded in the book of Revelations. However, he is told by an angel that the things he was about to see he should not record because it was the duty of John the Revelator to do that (please refer to 1 Nephi 14:18-28; click here to read it). You said you read the Book of Mormon, so I'm sure you remember that.

If you are referring to Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible, there's really no arguement there, since there have been numerous other translations of the Bible.

I realize this probably won't do anything for you and you'll probably think it's pointless that I do it; it's my hope somebody gets something from this. I realize that my answers are pretty inadequate, but the Spirit can do a lot more than I can.

 

[UsandThem]

Originally posted by: bobbybe01


As far as the Kirtland banking fiasco, I found this link: The Church as a Corporation The best answer I can give personally at the moment (it ist getting late and I'm getting tired, but I'll look it up for my personal information) that human mistakes and so on doesn't mean that he wasn't a prophet.

At least you understand 1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (click here to read it. Only the Spirit can really convince anyone truly that Joseph Smith was who he claimed he was, etc.

Nevertheless, I have a hard time understanding what you're defining as a "cult." It could be possible that any religion, any Christian denomination, could be a "cult." Even the church in its younger age in the New Testament, could very well have be defined as a "cult" by the Jews, Romans, and Pagans.

You'll be happy to know that the missionaries do not present the doctrines of the church in a methodical, systematic order anymore.

Regarding what you said earlier:

The one way you can figure out if it is a cult or not is just to read the last page in the bible. A quick summary - It states that nobody will take away or add to the bible. Smith added quite a bit.

I'm sure others have answered this question to you before and I know the websites that I have listed earlier can answer it more thoroghly. You must be referrings to Revelations 22:19-21, which says that nobody should add to this book of prophecy, and if they do, they'll be cursed. Okay, fair enough, right? You must remember that The term "The Bible" is derived from the Greek ta biblia "the book" which is a neuter plural, was really regarded as a feminine singular, and it really means "the books." Under your arguement, the Bible would have ended at Deuteronomy 4:2, which says: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

But let's be fair because we both accept the Bible as it is presently consituted, Old and New Testament. In the Book of Mormon, a prophet sees a vision somewhat similiar to what John the Revelator recorded in the book of Revelations. However, he is told by an angel that the things he was about to see he should not record because it was the duty of John the Revelator to do that (please refer to 1 Nephi 14:18-28; click here to read it

I realize this probably won't do anything for you and you'll probably think it's pointless that I do it; it's my hope somebody gets something from this.

Unlike so many young people on here who would just answer any constructive disagreement with "You suck", "You are stupid, or "I like pizza, I like to give my opinion and read well thought out arguments and posts. You will not change my mind, but I always like learning new things and how others think

Like I said, it is great that you have that much faith in what you believe. I also have great faith in what I believe. :beer: (sorry their is no icon for an alcohol and caffeine free drink)

 

[bobbybe01]

Unlike so many young people on here who would just answer any constructive disagreement with "You suck", "You are stupid, or "I like pizza, I like to give and read thought out arguments and posts. You will not change my mind, but I always like learning new things and how others think

hahah, no problem, my friend. I appreciate what you offer and I know that you do well in your faith. However, I'll just assume that the :beer: icon is either a cream soda or root beer. Don't worry, I like being asked those kind of questions...it keeps me on my toes. Thanks.

 

[Lazy8s]

Originally posted by: UsandThem

Originally posted by: bobbybe01


As far as the Kirtland banking fiasco, I found this link: The Church as a Corporation The best answer I can give personally at the moment (it ist getting late and I'm getting tired, but I'll look it up for my personal information) that human mistakes and so on doesn't mean that he wasn't a prophet.

At least you understand 1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (click here to read it. Only the Spirit can really convince anyone truly that Joseph Smith was who he claimed he was, etc.

Nevertheless, I have a hard time understanding what you're defining as a "cult." It could be possible that any religion, any Christian denomination, could be a "cult." Even the church in its younger age in the New Testament, could very well have be defined as a "cult" by the Jews, Romans, and Pagans.

You'll be happy to know that the missionaries do not present the doctrines of the church in a methodical, systematic order anymore.

Regarding what you said earlier:

The one way you can figure out if it is a cult or not is just to read the last page in the bible. A quick summary - It states that nobody will take away or add to the bible. Smith added quite a bit.

I'm sure others have answered this question to you before and I know the websites that I have listed earlier can answer it more thoroghly. You must be referrings to Revelations 22:19-21, which says that nobody should add to this book of prophecy, and if they do, they'll be cursed. Okay, fair enough, right? You must remember that The term "The Bible" is derived from the Greek ta biblia "the book" which is a neuter plural, was really regarded as a feminine singular, and it really means "the books." Under your arguement, the Bible would have ended at Deuteronomy 4:2, which says: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

But let's be fair because we both accept the Bible as it is presently consituted, Old and New Testament. In the Book of Mormon, a prophet sees a vision somewhat similiar to what John the Revelator recorded in the book of Revelations. However, he is told by an angel that the things he was about to see he should not record because it was the duty of John the Revelator to do that (please refer to 1 Nephi 14:18-28; click here to read it

I realize this probably won't do anything for you and you'll probably think it's pointless that I do it; it's my hope somebody gets something from this.

Unlike so many young people on here who would just answer any constructive disagreement with "You suck", "You are stupid, or "I like pizza, I like to give my opinion and read well thought out arguments and posts. You will not change my mind, but I always like learning new things and how others think

Like I said, it is great that you have that much faith in what you believe. I also have great faith in what I believe. :beer: (sorry their is no icon for an alcohol and caffeine free drink)

It's not the caffeine it's another substance. For the mormons Mountain Dew chugging is their equivelant of a keg stand or something. It's their cocaine, speed and alcohol all rolled into one.

 

[Lazy8s]

Originally posted by: Amorphus
Notes on Mormonism and polygamy:

Polygamy was official church teaching for awhile - kosher by all standards, and even encouraged. However, in order for Utah to become a state, the US government gave them an ultimatum to disallow polygamy. Whoops, Joseph Smith comes out of his room one day and says "God told me we should only have one spouse, men." What a coincidence, God following the schedule of men. :roll:

I like cheese.

They did the same thing about banning cigarettes. Joseph Smith's wife complained when she cleaned up after the men's meeting ( a typical mormon wife) abut the cigarette butts being gross and messy and smelly. Badabing a few weeks later Joseph Smith had a chat with God about how men shouldn't smoke. Lo and behold he was right, funny how they're always right even if it is kinda fishy how they got that way.......

Seriously though, if you're gonna attack things attack something a little more sensable than stuff like this.

Like....how Joseph Smith said in the D&C which temple Jesus is going to set up the final rule in (I think it's in Louisiana but I could be wrong) even though in Revelations it says any man who claims to know anything about the end of the world is a liar and false prophet.

Sheesh, ppl gotta study something before you bash it, give it a chance at least, you might find something you like. I'm not going to become a full blown mormon any time soon but at least I gave it a chance. I completely respect them. I wouldn't do it and I would hope my children wouldn't but if this guy decides to it's a lot better than 90% of the other religions out there. I can honestly say I am a better person for joining The Church in some ways. I lost out in a few others but hey, that's what life is, right?


EDIT: I left out some words, it's late

EDIT2: Man trying to find scripture for final temple but it's too lte for me to remember or keep looking.
D&C57 gets close but I don't think that's it. Make sure to read italicized portions at the top. Who knows though, it's been so long.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bobbybe01
Nevertheless, I have a hard time understanding what you're defining as a "cult." It could be possible that any religion, any Christian denomination, could be a "cult." Even the church in its younger age in the New Testament, could very well have be defined as a "cult" by the Jews, Romans, and Pagans.

They did consider Christ to be a "cult" leader, in exactly the same way we figure "cults" today. That's why they killed Christ.
To me, saying the word "cult" in a derogatory manner, or calling some religion a "cult", tells me that you don't believe in freedom of religion. End of story, 'cause you obviously don't.

Why is it wrong that Mormons don't believe in ingesting alcohol or caffeine? To his each his own, I admire them for their healthy lifestyles. I just happen to like my occasional beer.