Moody's warns it may cut California's debt rating

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: marincounty

And California is surrounded by parasiste states like Arizona and Nevada, that are constantly trying to steal our business with property tax breaks and giveaways to corporations. Corporations that have no loyalty to anyone or anything, except profits.
When the next state offers a better deal, they will just pull up and move again.

It's a free country though. CA needs to make adjustments if they want to compete.

And they are doing the exact opposite.

Here is a highly abbreviated example of how California treats businesses:

My company uses independent contractors.
The EDD decided they are not getting enough taxes because of that, so they audited us and fined us over $130K.
We appealed to the EDD's Administrative Law Judge.
The judge ruled in our favor.
The EDD said that's nice, we don't care what the ALJ said, so we're overriding him. Now you have 1 year to pay up!

Since we can't afford lawyers to appeal to a "real" court, we've had to lay people off and will now have to change our business model to meet their desires. Whether or not we'll survive remains to be seen. If we go under, that's over 50 people losing their jobs.

Our IC model has been accepted by all the other states in the Union and was accepted here until the EDD changed it's mind. There is no oversight and unless you have really deep pockets, there is nothing that you can do.

I'm sorry your company got screwed. However, you chose to gamble on an "independent contractor" employment scheme, and got burned.

Maybe if you hired regular employees and paid their taxes you wouldn't be in this situation.
I see companies and govts here abusing the independent contractor status to avoid taxes.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: marincounty

And California is surrounded by parasiste states like Arizona and Nevada, that are constantly trying to steal our business with property tax breaks and giveaways to corporations. Corporations that have no loyalty to anyone or anything, except profits.
When the next state offers a better deal, they will just pull up and move again.

It's a free country though. CA needs to make adjustments if they want to compete.

And they are doing the exact opposite.

Here is a highly abbreviated example of how California treats businesses:

My company uses independent contractors.
The EDD decided they are not getting enough taxes because of that, so they audited us and fined us over $130K.
We appealed to the EDD's Administrative Law Judge.
The judge ruled in our favor.
The EDD said that's nice, we don't care what the ALJ said, so we're overriding him. Now you have 1 year to pay up!

Since we can't afford lawyers to appeal to a "real" court, we've had to lay people off and will now have to change our business model to meet their desires. Whether or not we'll survive remains to be seen. If we go under, that's over 50 people losing their jobs.

Our IC model has been accepted by all the other states in the Union and was accepted here until the EDD changed it's mind. There is no oversight and unless you have really deep pockets, there is nothing that you can do.

May I ask what you do? Just out of curiousity.

I moved from CA to TX a while back. Nice roads, no income tax, and cheap houses.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: marincounty

And California is surrounded by parasiste states like Arizona and Nevada, that are constantly trying to steal our business with property tax breaks and giveaways to corporations. Corporations that have no loyalty to anyone or anything, except profits.
When the next state offers a better deal, they will just pull up and move again.

It's a free country though. CA needs to make adjustments if they want to compete.

And they are doing the exact opposite.

Here is a highly abbreviated example of how California treats businesses:

My company uses independent contractors.
The EDD decided they are not getting enough taxes because of that, so they audited us and fined us over $130K.
We appealed to the EDD's Administrative Law Judge.
The judge ruled in our favor.
The EDD said that's nice, we don't care what the ALJ said, so we're overriding him. Now you have 1 year to pay up!

Since we can't afford lawyers to appeal to a "real" court, we've had to lay people off and will now have to change our business model to meet their desires. Whether or not we'll survive remains to be seen. If we go under, that's over 50 people losing their jobs.

Our IC model has been accepted by all the other states in the Union and was accepted here until the EDD changed it's mind. There is no oversight and unless you have really deep pockets, there is nothing that you can do.

May I ask what you do? Just out of curiousity.

I moved from CA to TX a while back. Nice roads, no income tax, and cheap houses.

Let's just say I'm in the transportation business.
We're still in the midst of this nightmare, so I'd rather not disclose any details.

Marincounty: Our Independent Contractor model is not a "scheme". It fits perfectly into our industry and is widely accepted as standard practice in all other states. Our guys used to be employees, but due to extremely high worker's compensation and employment taxes, we were barely braking even and our employees (non in-house employees) were barely braking even.
After we moved to the IC model (for our non in-house people), the IC's started making about 30% more money. *We gave them the option to remain employees - only two of them did. The rest started working as IC's. They had complete freedom to work when they want and could hold multiple jobs if they wanted to. They also had their own insurance, which had similar coverage as Workers Comp., but at a minimal cost. It was good for us and great for our IC's. The only one not getting as much money was the EDD.

This is not an isolated incident, as I personally know of several other companies going through similar nightmares, not all related to IC's. At least three decided to close shop and start over in another state.

 

[sactoking]

The Appeals Board of the CA EDD has the ability to set aside any decision made by its administrative law judges. If you don't like it, the EDD is bound by a judgment from a competent court of jurisdiction.

As far as the 'IC' matter goes, if you tell the 'contractors' where they need to go and when, they're employees, regardless of what any written agreement says.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: sactoking
The Appeals Board of the CA EDD has the ability to set aside any decision made by its administrative law judges. If you don't like it, the EDD is bound by a judgment from a competent court of jurisdiction.

As far as the 'IC' matter goes, if you tell the 'contractors' where they need to go and when, they're employees, regardless of what any written agreement says.

Our lawyers made sure we followed the EDD's own rules that defined our guys as independent contractors when we made the switch. The ALJ agreed with us. Our contractors are offered work and they choose whether or not they want to do it and can negotiate how much to charge us for it.

I know that we can appeal it, but we've exhausted all our money and our line of credit fighting this. We have no money left for lawyers.


I don't want to derail this thread.

My point is that the business climate in this state is not exactly inviting.
Companies are leaving in droves and the legislature is doing it's best to make it even worse.

Times are tough at my company, so we've had to make some unwanted cutbacks on expenses. The state needs to do the same.

At what point do you draw the line on tax increases?

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: sactoking
The Appeals Board of the CA EDD has the ability to set aside any decision made by its administrative law judges. If you don't like it, the EDD is bound by a judgment from a competent court of jurisdiction.

As far as the 'IC' matter goes, if you tell the 'contractors' where they need to go and when, they're employees, regardless of what any written agreement says.

Our lawyers made sure we followed the EDD's own rules that defined our guys as independent contractors when we made the switch. The ALJ agreed with us. Our contractors are offered work and they choose whether or not they want to do it and can negotiate how much to charge us for it.

I know that we can appeal it, but we've exhausted all our money and our line of credit fighting this. We have no money left for lawyers.


I don't want to derail this thread.

My point is that the business climate in this state is not exactly inviting.
Companies are leaving in droves and the legislature is doing it's best to make it even worse.

Times are tough at my company, so we've had to make some unwanted cutbacks on expenses. The state needs to do the same.

At what point do you draw the line on tax increases?

I know Arnold tried lowering the worker's comp a few years ago. Was he successful?

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Come on, dont play stupid.

He's not playing

The truth is that the attitude of people like marincounty permeates CA, they believe the answer to any budget shortfall is to raise taxes and increase government -- that will fix everything. Then, spend more, create a new deficit, raise more taxes and start again!

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Come on, dont play stupid.

He's not playing

The truth is that the attitude of people like marincounty permeates CA, they believe the answer to any budget shortfall is to raise taxes and increase government -- that will fix everything. Then, spend more, create a new deficit, raise more taxes and start again!

I have never said raising taxes are always the answer. The Governor is the one that says this is a revenue problem.
Righties always have the same answer for everything, another round of tax cuts.
The governor and the Republicans in the legislature have not allowed any tax increases in years, instead insisting on borrowing and papering over the deficits.

The real problem is prop 13, which over time has shifted the tax burden from business to individuals, and the stupid 2/3 requirement for raising taxes, which has given the anti-tax idiots excessive influence on the budget process.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Come on, dont play stupid.

I have never said raising taxes are always the answer. The Governor is the one that says this is a revenue problem.
Righties always have the same answer for everything, another round of tax cuts.
The governor and the Republicans in the legislature have not allowed any tax increases in years, instead insisting on borrowing and papering over the deficits.

The real problem is prop 13, which over time has shifted the tax burden from business to individuals, and the stupid 2/3 requirement for raising taxes, which has given the anti-tax idiots excessive influence on the budget process.

You complain that the "Righties" always want tax cuts. Please show me where CA republicans are asking for tax cuts right now.

The main problem with CA is that our legislature is addicted to uncontrolled spending. Arnold made a vain attempt at slowing things down, but was subsequently beaten into submission by the unions.

Here is an interesting stat from The Reason Foundation(link)

When Gov. Pete Wilson took office in 1991, the state budget was $51.4 billion. When he left eight years later, it was $75.3 billion. After five years of Gov. Davis's administration, the budget had jumped to $104.2, and after another five years under the stewardship of Gov. Schwarzenegger, it has continued to increase significantly to its present level of $144.5 billion. In just the last 10 years state spending has nearly doubled, increasing approximately 92 percent.

If they raise our taxes, the spending will continue only to bring us to another point in time where another tax rate hike will be needed.

As I asked before, when we already have the highest tax rates in the nation, at what point do you draw the line on more taxes?

 

[Cattlegod]

That is what you get for putting a movie star in charge of your state.

 

[KK]

Well the voters voted for the spending, let them live with their defunct state.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If you are unable to raise taxes, then cut spending.

That may be unpopular, but to give in and raise taxes, allows/encouraging the spending to go unchecked.

 

[Wreckem]

The CA budget crisis isnt a crisis. Its stupidity of the California government. They need to do what other states have done, now and in the past, and thats

1. make spending cuts
2. increase prices of state subsidized services


Texas has $9billion less to work with for the 2010-2011 budgetl. They are goign to make cuts.

All though they are being dumbasses down in Austin. While they are already saying there will be a decrease in funding to higher education(with the exceptions to UT and A&M since they get the PUF), they are arguing for a tuition freeze.

Im glad the Texas legislature meets ever two years and not every year. They fuck up enough as it is. If they go through with a decrease in funding and a tuition freeze, what will happen will be the exact opposite of what they want. They want college to be more affordable so more people can go. With less money for the Uni's, less people will be going period. If the legislature passes reregulation of tuition, massive layoffs will happen in the various non-UT/A&M systems.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: marincounty

Come on, dont play stupid.

I have never said raising taxes are always the answer. The Governor is the one that says this is a revenue problem.
Righties always have the same answer for everything, another round of tax cuts.
The governor and the Republicans in the legislature have not allowed any tax increases in years, instead insisting on borrowing and papering over the deficits.

The real problem is prop 13, which over time has shifted the tax burden from business to individuals, and the stupid 2/3 requirement for raising taxes, which has given the anti-tax idiots excessive influence on the budget process.

You complain that the "Righties" always want tax cuts. Please show me where CA republicans are asking for tax cuts right now.

The main problem with CA is that our legislature is addicted to uncontrolled spending. Arnold made a vain attempt at slowing things down, but was subsequently beaten into submission by the unions.

Here is an interesting stat from The Reason Foundation(link)

When Gov. Pete Wilson took office in 1991, the state budget was $51.4 billion. When he left eight years later, it was $75.3 billion. After five years of Gov. Davis's administration, the budget had jumped to $104.2, and after another five years under the stewardship of Gov. Schwarzenegger, it has continued to increase significantly to its present level of $144.5 billion. In just the last 10 years state spending has nearly doubled, increasing approximately 92 percent.

If they raise our taxes, the spending will continue only to bring us to another point in time where another tax rate hike will be needed.

As I asked before, when we already have the highest tax rates in the nation, at what point do you draw the line on more taxes?

But we don't have the highest taxes in the nation. They may be high, but not the highest, not even close.
Republicans have drawn the line on taxes, thus the gridlock. They also haven't produced a reasonable budget proposal.
Also, spending increased faster under Arnold than any Democrat.
Text

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimated the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden for 2005 in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. States below are ranked from least to most tax friendly

#20 California 10.30%

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: marincounty

Come on, dont play stupid.

I have never said raising taxes are always the answer. The Governor is the one that says this is a revenue problem.
Righties always have the same answer for everything, another round of tax cuts.
The governor and the Republicans in the legislature have not allowed any tax increases in years, instead insisting on borrowing and papering over the deficits.

The real problem is prop 13, which over time has shifted the tax burden from business to individuals, and the stupid 2/3 requirement for raising taxes, which has given the anti-tax idiots excessive influence on the budget process.

You complain that the "Righties" always want tax cuts. Please show me where CA republicans are asking for tax cuts right now.

The main problem with CA is that our legislature is addicted to uncontrolled spending. Arnold made a vain attempt at slowing things down, but was subsequently beaten into submission by the unions.

Here is an interesting stat from The Reason Foundation(link)

When Gov. Pete Wilson took office in 1991, the state budget was $51.4 billion. When he left eight years later, it was $75.3 billion. After five years of Gov. Davis's administration, the budget had jumped to $104.2, and after another five years under the stewardship of Gov. Schwarzenegger, it has continued to increase significantly to its present level of $144.5 billion. In just the last 10 years state spending has nearly doubled, increasing approximately 92 percent.

If they raise our taxes, the spending will continue only to bring us to another point in time where another tax rate hike will be needed.

As I asked before, when we already have the highest tax rates in the nation, at what point do you draw the line on more taxes?

But we don't have the highest taxes in the nation. They may be high, but not the highest, not even close.
Republicans have drawn the line on taxes, thus the gridlock. They also haven't produced a reasonable budget proposal.
Also, spending increased faster under Arnold than any Democrat.
Text

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimated the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden for 2005 in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. States below are ranked from least to most tax friendly

#20 California 10.30%

You need to look at the 2008 numbers from the same org. Cali is ranked at #6 for state/local taxation and at #11 for total taxes

The 2008 rankings for the top 10 for highest state/local tax burden is
1. New Jersey
2. New York
3. Connecticut
4. Maryland
5. Hawaii
6. California
7. Ohio
8. Vermont
9. Wisconsin
10. Rhode Island

#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 all have huge deficits*. Which leads one to believe taxes arent the problem, spending is.

The Peoples Republic of Taxachusetts is a surprising #23.


To compare numbers with current spending, California would run a $40billion deficit over two years. Texas(if it could) would run a $7-9billion deficit over two years. Conneticut would run a $1-1.5billion deficit. New York would be in the $30billion range.

 

[Bateluer]

Give me total control of California's government for 1 month, to include all powers of the executive and legislative branches, and I'll have the financial situation there fixed.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
To Ocguy31 and winnar111:

Since you clearly are generalizing and pulling things out of thin air, let me answer this question for you.

The reason Cali has a 14 billion dollar shortfall:

1. There is roughly a 7.5 billion dollar shortfall in capital gains taxes alone, compared to last year.

2. The amount of corporate taxes collected will be 2 billion less than last year because companies like BANKS for example are posting losses and not profits.

3. Property tax collection will be about half a billion less.

With just these 3 items, you have 10 billion dollars of income that isn't there anymore.

Now is this 10 billion dollar shortfall due to 8 dollar minimum wage and companies leaving in droves as you guys claim? Of course not.

Does this 10 billion dollar shortfall have anything to do with the collapsed housing market? I am thinking just maybe, just maybe.

You cannot exclude the fact that CA?s immigration policies have allowed them to have by far the largest population of illegal immigrants in the country. Thus the non-taxable/no taxable/low taxable segment of their population has grown exponentially while the taxable/highly taxable segment has been shrinking at about the same rate.

Because of this they have less tax dollars coming in than going out and it is not going to get better only worse. The balance between the rich and the poor is now way off kilter, they are bottom heavy and they are drowning because of it.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

The Peoples Republic of Taxachusetts is a surprising #23.

Yet is 2.1 billion in the red and is cutting funds to cities and Health Services which will led to massive layoffs. Just imagine the trouble they'd be facing if the ballot proposition to eliminate State Income tax would have passed last November.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: marincounty

Come on, dont play stupid.

I have never said raising taxes are always the answer. The Governor is the one that says this is a revenue problem.
Righties always have the same answer for everything, another round of tax cuts.
The governor and the Republicans in the legislature have not allowed any tax increases in years, instead insisting on borrowing and papering over the deficits.

The real problem is prop 13, which over time has shifted the tax burden from business to individuals, and the stupid 2/3 requirement for raising taxes, which has given the anti-tax idiots excessive influence on the budget process.

You complain that the "Righties" always want tax cuts. Please show me where CA republicans are asking for tax cuts right now.

The main problem with CA is that our legislature is addicted to uncontrolled spending. Arnold made a vain attempt at slowing things down, but was subsequently beaten into submission by the unions.

Here is an interesting stat from The Reason Foundation(link)

When Gov. Pete Wilson took office in 1991, the state budget was $51.4 billion. When he left eight years later, it was $75.3 billion. After five years of Gov. Davis's administration, the budget had jumped to $104.2, and after another five years under the stewardship of Gov. Schwarzenegger, it has continued to increase significantly to its present level of $144.5 billion. In just the last 10 years state spending has nearly doubled, increasing approximately 92 percent.

If they raise our taxes, the spending will continue only to bring us to another point in time where another tax rate hike will be needed.

As I asked before, when we already have the highest tax rates in the nation, at what point do you draw the line on more taxes?

But we don't have the highest taxes in the nation. They may be high, but not the highest, not even close.
Republicans have drawn the line on taxes, thus the gridlock. They also haven't produced a reasonable budget proposal.
Also, spending increased faster under Arnold than any Democrat.
Text

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimated the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden for 2005 in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. States below are ranked from least to most tax friendly

#20 California 10.30%

You need to look at the 2008 numbers from the same org. Cali is ranked at #6 for state/local taxation and at #11 for total taxes

The 2008 rankings for the top 10 for highest state/local tax burden is
1. New Jersey
2. New York
3. Connecticut
4. Maryland
5. Hawaii
6. California
7. Ohio
8. Vermont
9. Wisconsin
10. Rhode Island

#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 all have huge deficits*. Which leads one to believe taxes arent the problem, spending is.

The Peoples Republic of Taxachusetts is a surprising #23.

Not surprising that those are all blue states.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: marincounty

Come on, dont play stupid.

I have never said raising taxes are always the answer. The Governor is the one that says this is a revenue problem.
Righties always have the same answer for everything, another round of tax cuts.
The governor and the Republicans in the legislature have not allowed any tax increases in years, instead insisting on borrowing and papering over the deficits.

The real problem is prop 13, which over time has shifted the tax burden from business to individuals, and the stupid 2/3 requirement for raising taxes, which has given the anti-tax idiots excessive influence on the budget process.

You complain that the "Righties" always want tax cuts. Please show me where CA republicans are asking for tax cuts right now.

The main problem with CA is that our legislature is addicted to uncontrolled spending. Arnold made a vain attempt at slowing things down, but was subsequently beaten into submission by the unions.

Here is an interesting stat from The Reason Foundation(link)

When Gov. Pete Wilson took office in 1991, the state budget was $51.4 billion. When he left eight years later, it was $75.3 billion. After five years of Gov. Davis's administration, the budget had jumped to $104.2, and after another five years under the stewardship of Gov. Schwarzenegger, it has continued to increase significantly to its present level of $144.5 billion. In just the last 10 years state spending has nearly doubled, increasing approximately 92 percent.

If they raise our taxes, the spending will continue only to bring us to another point in time where another tax rate hike will be needed.

As I asked before, when we already have the highest tax rates in the nation, at what point do you draw the line on more taxes?

But we don't have the highest taxes in the nation. They may be high, but not the highest, not even close.
Republicans have drawn the line on taxes, thus the gridlock. They also haven't produced a reasonable budget proposal.
Also, spending increased faster under Arnold than any Democrat.
Text

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimated the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden for 2005 in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. States below are ranked from least to most tax friendly

#20 California 10.30%

You need to look at the 2008 numbers from the same org. Cali is ranked at #6 for state/local taxation and at #11 for total taxes

The 2008 rankings for the top 10 for highest state/local tax burden is
1. New Jersey
2. New York
3. Connecticut
4. Maryland
5. Hawaii
6. California
7. Ohio
8. Vermont
9. Wisconsin
10. Rhode Island

#s 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 all have huge deficits*. Which leads one to believe taxes arent the problem, spending is.

The Peoples Republic of Taxachusetts is a surprising #23.

Not surprising that those are all blue states.

Who don't rely on as big a percentage of the Federal Government Teet as many of the Red States so they have to have these taxes to pay for the services they have.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Who don't rely on as big a percentage of the Federal Government Teet as many of the Red States so they have to have these taxes to pay for the services they have.

This is a fact, but why is it accepted?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Who don't rely on as big a percentage of the Federal Government Teet as many of the Red States so they have to have these taxes to pay for the services they have.

This is a fact, but why is it accepted?

Who knows but it's funny that some of these Red Staters are bitching about some of these Blue States who need a Bailout but without the Federal Handout to their own states they'd be a in a much worse economic predicament. For instance CA pays a huge amount in Federal Taxes but only receives a fraction back in what they pay out where as some of these Podunk Southern Red States pay a paltry amount and receives more back than they pay out.

 

[StageLeft]

Well, I thought the north won so this kind of thing wouldn't have to happen.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Who don't rely on as big a percentage of the Federal Government Teet as many of the Red States so they have to have these taxes to pay for the services they have.

This is a fact, but why is it accepted?

Who knows but it's funny that some of these Red Staters are bitching about some of these Blue States who need a Bailout but without the Federal Handout to their own states they'd be a in a much worse economic predicament. For instance CA pays a huge amount in Federal Taxes but only receives a fraction back in what they pay out where as some of these Podunk Southern Red States pay a paltry amount and receives more back than they pay out.

Well, in reality the only people paying taxes in CA are the Republicans anyway.. the pot smoking hippie liberals don't pay taxes. I expect a full apology from you.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Who don't rely on as big a percentage of the Federal Government Teet as many of the Red States so they have to have these taxes to pay for the services they have.

This is a fact, but why is it accepted?

Who knows but it's funny that some of these Red Staters are bitching about some of these Blue States who need a Bailout but without the Federal Handout to their own states they'd be a in a much worse economic predicament. For instance CA pays a huge amount in Federal Taxes but only receives a fraction back in what they pay out where as some of these Podunk Southern Red States pay a paltry amount and receives more back than they pay out.

Well, in reality the only people paying taxes in CA are the Republicans anyway.. the pot smoking hippie liberals don't pay taxes. I expect a full apology from you.

:roll: