Missing the NHL?

[sjwaste]

At this point, I'm glad. I still hold out hope that some franchises will fold. I've heard some rumors that expansion to 32 teams is on the table as well. The NHL will never fix its business problems and the players don't want to keep paying for the mistakes time and time again. They need fewer teams, not more.

 

[KeithTalent]

Nice!

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/12/05/cba_talks_continue/

Just got a text from owners side that his guess is season starts on dec 26th.

Sucks that it would start on the same day as the World Juniors if true. Always enjoyed that tournament and would hate to see it demolished by the first day of the NHL season.

KT

 

[mugs]

Nice!

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/12/05/cba_talks_continue/

I've been watching twitter all day, and it sounds like they're working pretty hard to get a deal done by Friday. Seems like the owners side is pretty optimistic, the players are just keeping their mouths shut. I don't think anything has leaked about the terms of the deal, except that the league is asking for 10 years (previously 5-6 years).

 

[KeithTalent]

I've been watching twitter all day, and it sounds like they're working pretty hard to get a deal done by Friday. Seems like the owners side is pretty optimistic, the players are just keeping their mouths shut. I don't think anything has leaked about the terms of the deal, except that the league is asking for 10 years (previously 5-6 years).

Any word on a PA statement anytime soon? It sounds like things are pretty close, but if it's only the owners talking, then it's kind of hollow.

KT

 

[Squisher]

All the talk here in Detroit was that they're going to build a new sports center and home for the Redwings. All I could think was they're going to have a new building and no team to play there.

As a side note: if you've got a choice of owners, find an old billionaire that doesn't think he's long for this earth and wants to leave a legacy.

 

[mugs]

Any word on a PA statement anytime soon? It sounds like things are pretty close, but if it's only the owners talking, then it's kind of hollow.

KT

Nothing much leaking out of either side anymore. I don't think we'll hear anything until either they have a deal, or one side decides that they're stuck and wants to blame it on the other side.

They set up a podium for a press conference, then took it down, then set it up again. The owners have left the meetings probably 4 or more times this evening to have private discussions on another floor. Each time they only leave for a short time, and then they resume for a short time, then repeat. This is obviously better than the old way of negotiating where one side would deliver a proposal, the meeting would end abruptly and then they'd both complain to the press that the other side is unreasonable and doesn't want to negotiate.

Also, Steve Fehr bought the media pizza.

 

[sjwaste]

Let's just hope they wait a little while to announce expansion into Quebec City and one other market. I'm hearing that's part of the solution - more expansion fees. The NHLPA won't dismiss that either, because it's more jobs.

I really, REALLY hope they fix the economic problems and not just patch over them with more expansion. I miss pro hockey, but I don't miss the NHL as it's been since the last lockout. If they can avoid adding more teams and moving some of the existing ones back north, that's a good step.

 

[mugs]

Some details leaked -

NHL upped their "make whole" offer from $211 million to $300 million; players were asking for $393 million. $50 million of this is pension funding.

Contract limits are 5 years, or 7 years for your own players. Which effectively means 7 years but teams can get something for their UFAs through sign and trade deals.

Keep current UFA age. It was obvious from the start that the NHL only asked for the increase so they could give it back.

NHL dropped their requested changes to salary arbitration (IIRC they wanted team-elected arbitration earlier)

10 year deal with opt-out after 8.

Bettman and Fehr will be back in the room today. Meetings start around noon, which means around 2 probably.

Edit: also, a lot of negativity and blaming the other side through the media.

 

[AMDZen]

Christmas Miracle?

COME ON NHL!!!!!!!!!!

All I want for Christmas is hockey

 

[mugs]

And now the players want to bring back federal mediators. Great.

I still think there will be a season, but I doubt it will start soon.

 

[KeithTalent]

And now the players want to bring back federal mediators. Great.

I still think there will be a season, but I doubt it will start soon.

Ugh, damn it. Was getting excited.

Buddy and I were already speculating on some wagers. :sneaky:

KT

 

[AMDZen]

Fuck this, I'm just going to quit paying attention to it. They get our hopes up for nothing

Assholes

 

[tHa ShIzNiT]

So its not happening now? I'd really like for it to happen...I've played and watched hockey for over 20 years and I feel like this is absolutely killing the entire sport.

 

[mugs]

Bettman is pisssssssed: http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/#clip822014

I actually gained some respect for him while watching that, because you can tell he's really passionate and he really wants to get a deal done that will improve the health of the franchises. Oh the other hand, it's somewhat disingenuous to stress how much ground the league has given up and how little ground the players have given up when the starting point was so far from what the last CBA was. The players are giving up most of the ground from the last CBA, not the owners. Obviously the players recognize the necessity of that, but Bettman shouldn't act like the starting point of the negotiations was 50/50 (or the crazy 57/43 reversal that they actually offered first).

I don't know if there is any truth to this, but it wouldn't surprise me: https://twitter.com/adater/status/276878074744811520 It's consistent with everything that happened yesterday. The owners obviously thought they were close to a deal after the Board of Governors meeting. I think if the players had the opportunity to vote on one of the league's most recent offers, they'd have a deal. The reality is that long-term contracts and front-loaded contracts only benefit a small minority of players, and front-loaded players actually take money out of the pockets of lesser players through escrow. Those guys aren't going to hold out for a "better" deal that doesn't benefit them at all.

Edit: subsequent tweets elaborate:

"That deep-inside-players quote came from depth player. They want to play, but top players still in Fehr camp. Could explode soon"
"Fehr did not hold a player-wide conference call in saying that, important to note. Came from top down, trickle-down"
"Bottom line here: Players say they are unified, but not what I'm hearing from this depth player. They'll deny that publicly, but privately, they are feeling powerless as the Ryan Millers and Brad Richards of the world pretend this is a sacrifice for them"
"This depth player is wicked smart though. May put his name to comments soon. Sorry for anonymous tilt to this. not my style"
"We're seeing now the fruition of a two-tier economic system among players. Top guys in Europe, taking jobs, making $. Bottom guys suffering"

And that's why the union won't vote on anything until Don Fehr tells them it's ok.

 

[dbk]

so.. Fehr is the fall guy? Fed. mediators come in and the deal gets done. Cancellation of Winter Classic gets rescinded and the season starts! BOOYA

 

[sdifox]

I am surprised there wasn't a Dubai expansion team. But then again, Dubai doesn't have as much cash to piss away like it did before 08

 

[sjwaste]

I still don't think a season is happening. The players gave up a lot of ground each of the last two CBAs and NHL revenue has skyrocketed since. The owners opening position is what's causing this mess. There are very deep economic issues - certain franchises cannot make money with the current structure and the NHL's latest position is that they need to adjust league economics to the lowest common denominator. They over-expanded and moved into non-traditional hockey markets, that move is failing, and the owners aren't looking to eat those costs.

This won't get resolved until the top 3/4 of the league's franchises split from the bottom quarter. But that split means contraction has to be on the table, and those same owners thought it would be a good idea to collect expansion/relocation fees in the first place.

The league needs to contract or relocate a number of teams to make things work long term. That or revenue sharing needs to greatly expand, but I don't think Ed Snider wants to pay for any more of Shea Weber's matching offer in Nashville. But the league's current economic issues really need more than just the players rolling back to 50/50 on HRR. The owners really made a mess out of expansion and relocation, but both sides now have disincentives to undo that. After all, 4th line talent is by definition almost 25% of the NHLPA, and those guys want to keep their jobs.

 

[AMDZen]

I still don't think a season is happening.

Nope!

Move along folks as there is nothing to see here. Check back in next year and we'll see whats new

 

[mugs]

This won't get resolved until the top 3/4 of the league's franchises split from the bottom quarter. But that split means contraction has to be on the table, and those same owners thought it would be a good idea to collect expansion/relocation fees in the first place.

Wait, you actually think the bottom 1/4 are holding this up? The NHLPA's biggest demand has been increased revenue sharing between teams. Who do you think has been fighting that?

Contraction on the table? Yeah, I'm sure the players would love it if you eliminated some of their jobs.

The league needs to contract or relocate a number of teams to make things work long term. That or revenue sharing needs to greatly expand, but I don't think Ed Snider wants to pay for any more of Shea Weber's matching offer in Nashville. But the league's current economic issues really need more than just the players rolling back to 50/50 on HRR. The owners really made a mess out of expansion and relocation, but both sides now have disincentives to undo that. After all, 4th line talent is by definition almost 25% of the NHLPA, and those guys want to keep their jobs.

Contraction and relocation have nothing to do with the CBA negotiations. Neither side is bringing it up. I see Flyers fans mentioning it a lot, and I guess it must be because they've had to watch their team fail for years while a neighbor has been winning Stanley Cups but can't fill their arena. Sorry, but I highly doubt the Devils will be moving anytime soon. Their main financial problem is their arena debt, and that doesn't go away if you move the team to Quebec City.

Contraction is not going to happen. Relocation might happen. Expansion is a possibility.

 

[iRONic]

A pox on both their houses!

 

[iRONic]

The entire schedule through Dec. 30 -- plus the Jan. 1 Winter Classic at Michigan Stadium and Jan. 27 all-star game in Columbus -- is now off the books.

 

[AMDZen]

The entire schedule through Dec. 30 -- plus the Jan. 1 Winter Classic at Michigan Stadium and Jan. 27 all-star game in Columbus -- is now off the books.

Didn't we already know this?

 

[classy]

I am usually a player backer, but here the players are at fault. The structure offered by the owners is almost identical to the nba. And for the players not to accept a 10 year agreement is just nonsense.

 

[iRONic]

Didn't we already know this?

It was pretty much fait accompli, yesterday was the official announcement.

 

[sjwaste]

Wait, you actually think the bottom 1/4 are holding this up? The NHLPA's biggest demand has been increased revenue sharing between teams. Who do you think has been fighting that?

I do think that. I think that there's a lot of disagreement between the different strata of owners. Do you think Snider, Jacobs (especially him), etc. want to pay one more cent to the failing expansion teams? Shit, I'm sure Ed Snider really wants to share more revenue so he can pay for Shea Weber's contract after the offer sheet. Basically, I think there's a split between owners, and I also think one is growing between the handful of superstar players and the rest of the players as well. Some of those big dollar, big year contracts that "no one" wants to roll back are in the way of 75% of the league getting paid again. It doesn't help that the owners wanting to limit terms and roll back just got done paying 10 year megadeals. There's just more to it than players vs owners, IMHO.

Contraction on the table? Yeah, I'm sure the players would love it if you eliminated some of their jobs.

Fully agree. The NHLPA doesn't want to lose jobs and the owners don't want to pay for contraction. But I think the number of teams, as well as some of their locations, are part of the root economic problems that will extend this lockout and cause the next one if not addressed.

Contraction and relocation have nothing to do with the CBA negotiations. Neither side is bringing it up. I see Flyers fans mentioning it a lot, and I guess it must be because they've had to watch their team fail for years while a neighbor has been winning Stanley Cups but can't fill their arena. Sorry, but I highly doubt the Devils will be moving anytime soon. Their main financial problem is their arena debt, and that doesn't go away if you move the team to Quebec City.

Contraction is not going to happen. Relocation might happen. Expansion is a possibility.

Expansion is a strong possibility. I've heard, probably from no one credible but I do think there's a shred of truth, that a two team expansion is practically a done deal.

Relocation is the compromise alternative since neither the NHL or PA want to contract. Move some teams into areas where people will come watch. Then a 30 (or proposed 32) team league might work.

The Devils are one of a handful of teams that do have serious attendance problems. For as good of a team as they are, they brought in 15k a night last season, which is only 87% of that arena. Nashville and the Florida teams are outdrawing them. Being a Flyers fan has nothing to do with it. They're the 3rd team in the NYC market and I'm not confident that even two can be successful there. The Rangers average a sellout, so we'll see what happens when the Islanders move into Brooklyn. Their numbers might stay the same or go up, but one thing is for sure, consolidating two teams into NYC isn't going to help the Devils attendance.

NJ and NYI are two franchises with a lot of history and a lot of success, especially NJ. IMO, those are the two franchises that deserve better markets. That's nothing against you as a fan of NJ, it's just that there aren't enough others doing the same as you. Honest question - would you stop being a fan if NJ moved to Quebec City, or maybe a little closer, someplace in New England? It's not the Browns, where Art Modell was a greedy dick, but more of a situation where the team can put a better product on the ice.