I'm glad to see you learned a new phrase for the day, and are all too excited to use it and show everyone else how you found it, but the fact that my challenging you to expose the questionable facts in my post led only to you repeating youself leads me to belive you simply posted that thinking it was clever. It wasn't. Your post actually makes no sense as I was simply stating an opinion, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you simply didn't know what the phrase meant, and I appear to be correct in that assumption.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Are you that ignorant? It seems so, because your "facts," "opinions," and arguments are like a dog chasing its tail. Next, you'll probably start spouting off about some "right" that everyone has to eat their cake and have it too.
BTW, nice way of covering up that YOU just found what "begging the question" means... :roll:
I just want to point out that I'm reasonably familiar with the Card and Krueger study (we dissected it in labor economics), and that it's not exactly bullet-proof evidence of "minimum wage increases don't affect unemployment". For one thing, their sample was biased, in that it didn't include McDonald's (who refused to give them any information). Second, I don't believe they did a great job of controlling/compensating for external factors - eg , other factors entirely might have caused PA to have a particularly bad year, and NJ have a particularly good one.
Interestingly, the end result of the paper (from what I recall) was that prices rose slightly, and profits went down - which leads to higher inflation and less investment in the state over the long-term (which, presumably, is going to cause increased unemployment). This is, of course, not exactly a startling revelation, although I believe C&K were expecting more unemployment (like everyone else).
In summary, there's no quick and easy long-term fix, and passing off a minimum wage increase as one is, at best, misleading, and, at worst, an outright falsehood.
-Erwos (with a BSc in Econ and CS)
Interestingly, the end result of the paper (from what I recall) was that prices rose slightly, and profits went down - which leads to higher inflation and less investment in the state over the long-term (which, presumably, is going to cause increased unemployment). This is, of course, not exactly a startling revelation, although I believe C&K were expecting more unemployment (like everyone else).
In summary, there's no quick and easy long-term fix, and passing off a minimum wage increase as one is, at best, misleading, and, at worst, an outright falsehood.
-Erwos (with a BSc in Econ and CS)
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
Privaleged college kids?
Stunt is one of those
I love that only people who stopped after econ 101 think they know exactly how the world works.
Do you think the guy with a minimum wage job cares much if he loses his job? I mean it's not like he has a "career", he doesn't even have a living wage.
We have a goverment printing/spending money like there is no tomorrow and your worried about the 1/10 of 1% infaltion that MIGHT be caused by raising minimum wage?
:roll:
Would you care to share your credentials in the economics field with the rest of us? I don't really need some uneducated twit (judging from your immaturity and lack of knowledge) lecturing me on macro and labor economics. This is, of course, ignoring your obvious bias against the current administration (judging from your sig), which doesn't really make me think your arguments are even based on rationality or logic.
(I got my degree from U of MD. We've got a pretty good program over there, including a few Nobel prize winners. My primary focus was banking, finance, and labor, plus quite a lot of econometrics. Your turn.)
As for your assertion that inflation would rise .1% on the proposed minimum wage raise, I'd like to see some hard statistics for that. I made no such claims as to exactly how much inflation would go up, though I personally suspect it would be more than that. Certainly, if you tied minimum wage to cost of living, you'd expect to see some kind of feedback effect (high inflation -> higher minimum wage -> higher inflation).
-Erwos
Obviosly none of you guys have ever had to LIVE and support a family working retail..
Min wage is too low to even live alone here in texas.
it needs to be rasied as long as the rest of the econony raises with inflation so does min wage..
and if you guys really think that this only helps college/HS kids you really need to get out from mommie and daddies roof..
there is a real world out there and real people and families still depend on fathers and mothers that make min wage..
and they arnt making it..
if anything cuts should be made to pay at exec levels.. who the hell gave these guys the permissions to give themselves 1 million dollar a year bonus's etc..
Im sick of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer..
this goverment is as corrupt as they come..
and the system doesnt work.
Min wage is too low to even live alone here in texas.
it needs to be rasied as long as the rest of the econony raises with inflation so does min wage..
and if you guys really think that this only helps college/HS kids you really need to get out from mommie and daddies roof..
there is a real world out there and real people and families still depend on fathers and mothers that make min wage..
and they arnt making it..
if anything cuts should be made to pay at exec levels.. who the hell gave these guys the permissions to give themselves 1 million dollar a year bonus's etc..
Im sick of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer..
this goverment is as corrupt as they come..
and the system doesnt work.
Stunt
Diamond Member
- Jul 17, 2002
- 9,717
- 2
- 0
So because I went to college, have a job and don't have an economics degree; my view on minimum wage is somehow not valid?
Minimum wage does help some, but I will garantee there are many people are paid below minimum wage and there's absolutely nothing you can do to fix that. This set wage is also abused in many ways; first employers will use this as a guideline for low demand jobs (reducing the person's pay) and secondly employers can pay this wage no matter cost of living in the city or in rural areas. Does minimum wage provide enough in the country; maybe. Does it provide enough in the city; probably not. The costs associated with living will never be fully understood; so why try to set a minimum wage which describes this?
For your reference, in Canada minimum wage earners represent less than 5% of the workforce. Employers are already paying over and above minimum wage; all this politics is virtually for nothing.
Time for people to be realistic as to what minimum wage is, and not fool themselves into thinking they are making people better off.
Minimum wage does help some, but I will garantee there are many people are paid below minimum wage and there's absolutely nothing you can do to fix that. This set wage is also abused in many ways; first employers will use this as a guideline for low demand jobs (reducing the person's pay) and secondly employers can pay this wage no matter cost of living in the city or in rural areas. Does minimum wage provide enough in the country; maybe. Does it provide enough in the city; probably not. The costs associated with living will never be fully understood; so why try to set a minimum wage which describes this?
For your reference, in Canada minimum wage earners represent less than 5% of the workforce. Employers are already paying over and above minimum wage; all this politics is virtually for nothing.
Time for people to be realistic as to what minimum wage is, and not fool themselves into thinking they are making people better off.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
Well, your opinion is off-base simply because it does not adequaltely account for reality; having education in economics is not really part of the problem, that was simply an observation; the world (and especially the economy) never looks as simple as right after you finish up first-year micro, and people who stop there are more likely to hold economic positions that reflect this.
I don't think minimum wage in Canada is nearly as much an issue as in the US; in fact it does mostly affect students here, and realistically for young workers, workplace safety and education are more important than pay. I haven't worked for minimum wage since I was 15.
Add a few years of outsourcing - an area in which we seem to trail the US slightly - and perhaps the minimum wage and associated issues will be more relevant here.
Minimum wage up = UNEMPLOYMENT RATE UP!!!!
You can't force employers to fork over more money and NOT fire workers!! There is only so much money in the economy without inflation... I would think an economist would realize that. In every other country where minimum wage is high, unemployment is also high.
France, for example, has a minimum wage that compares to about $10/hr here and their unemployment is 10%... 2x our's.
Higher minimum wage means more minimum-wage-earners out of work. There is only so much wealth that can be shared.
In the end you don't help the current minimum wage earners... you hurt them by getting them laid off. Then how much do they make, eh?
Pick your poison...
You can't force employers to fork over more money and NOT fire workers!! There is only so much money in the economy without inflation... I would think an economist would realize that. In every other country where minimum wage is high, unemployment is also high.
France, for example, has a minimum wage that compares to about $10/hr here and their unemployment is 10%... 2x our's.
Higher minimum wage means more minimum-wage-earners out of work. There is only so much wealth that can be shared.
In the end you don't help the current minimum wage earners... you hurt them by getting them laid off. Then how much do they make, eh?
Pick your poison...
Ah thank you for pointing out trickle down means sh!t.
If a business is intent on keeping it's employees in the dirt then they do not deserve to be in business, period.
What do YOU want, employees living in mud huts on the plantation again???
There are a few more things that add to France's unemployment than just a high minimum wage. Minimum wage is part of it but they also have a fairly static labor market because of rigid rules on hiring/firing people (which I'm sure has helped spur resentment in immigrants to the country like Muslims). They also have fairly generous unemployment benefits and their attitude for work is slightly different than ours. Whereas we try to keep up with the Jones by working our arses off, most French see the value in freetime.
So yes, the higher minimum wage is part of it, but not the whole picture. Also if you want to get technical, raising minimum wage would increase the natural rate of unemployment, not necessarily the current unemployment.
I'd like to contribute more to this thread but seeing as how I've only gotten up to Intermediate Macro, I'd prefer to let people a little more knowledgable than me argue about this one.
This is a very interesting thread so far, aside from a few trolls that don't know what they're talking about.
You summarize my position correctly. I wouldn't care about opinions on proper software engineering from someone with no credentials in the field, so why should I take economics advice from someone like that? The fact that you can balance your checkbook, while laudable, does not translate to economics acumen.
This isn't meant as a personal attack, only clarification of my position that people ought to think twice about their knowledge of the field.
-Erwos
It's all dependent upon where you live. In Iowa there are many places that only pay $5.15 an hour. My 14 year old sister works at Chic Filet and gets $5.15 an hour. My first job(1999) I worked at the movie theater and made $5.15(it did have it's perks though, free tickets). Many jobs I looked into back in '99 only paid $5.15 also. There has been slight increases to some of the jobs in the area, but there is still many minimum wage paying jobs here.
I vote for a raise. I dont care what the politics are. Cost of living goes up every year. You can at least raise the minumum wage up AFTER 7 YEARS, COME ON NOW!
Some jobs "illegals" cant perform. I can understand your point in some employment fields but not all.
Your forgetting the Earned Income Credit. If you are working full time at minimum and support a kid or two you will get back $4,000 to $6,000 when you file your taxes assuming standard payroll withholding. At that level you can also get WIC foods and state health care for your kids. The only thing missing is pride.
So in reality the government (your tax dollars) are subsidizing a cheap workforce for big business.
So in reality the government (your tax dollars) are subsidizing a cheap workforce for big business.
Minimum wage doesnt have an effect on wages? They both have wages in the words, to say it has NO effect at all is ludicrous.
Alot of ppl work minimum wage. That extra money every week multiplied by the year is certainly more then nothing right?
Alot of ppl work minimum wage. That extra money every week multiplied by the year is certainly more then nothing right?
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