Michele Backmamm wins the Iowa straw polls.

[Harvey]

Have you acknowledged being wrong about Obama yet?

As a matter of fact, yes, I have, in that I'm disappointed that he hasn't prosecuted the Bushwhackos for treason, murder, torture, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other crimes. I also e-mailed him and Eric Holder about my disappointment over these issues. I'll be glad to repost one of my "macros" documenting their crimes if you want to challenge that. Of course, I'm sure you know how to find them for yourself.

I've also posted that I'm disappointed in the way he capitulated to your right wingnuts over the budget, deficit and retaking our financial system back from the Koch suckers, the wall street robber barons and other financial greed whores.

You wrote a nice little song about Bush, but seemed to have been MIA when it comes to Obama.

I'm glad you like it. The murder of 4474 American troops (as of 7-19-2011) in his war of lies in Iraq, and tens of thousands more wounded, scarred and disabled for life, at the cost of trillions of dollars your wingnut jackoff's are still bitching and moaning about and trying to blame on Obama, were plenty of inspiration. I can post the lyrics, or you can listen to it, here:

Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?​

If you want a song about Obama, I guess you'll have to write it and record it, yourself. When you do, put a link to it in your sig, and we can submit you to "America's Got Talent" or "America's Most Wanted," whichever seems most appropriate. 😛

Obama is everything you bitched about with Bush and then some.

Took the Bush wars and expanded them.

The war in Afghanistan came to us on 9-11. I never faulted the Bushwhackos for going after Bin Laden, Al Qaeda or the Taliban. I faulted them for screwing the pooch AND our nation by not finishing the right job and shifting the majority of our resources to his bullshit ego war in Iraq. Now, ten years later, we're still caught in a war that should have been won and done years ago. THAT is on George W. Bush! :thumbsdown:

So you admit
Took the Bush debt and expanded it.

George W. Bush is possibly the worst criminal to hold the office of President, probably exceeding the record of criminality held by the previous Turd In Chief, Richard Nixon. Bush started with the surplus left to him by the Clinton administration and proceeded to squander that and more on a useless war of lies in Iraq while giving away trillions more in tax cuts to his wealthy Wall Street robber barons and industrial contributors while stripped all controls over the financial markets, allowing them to plunder our economy. Or do you have some other lame ass excuse for the recession/depression that resulted from those policies? 😕

Same policies when it comes to the war on terror.

Yeah, that's another of my complaints, and I've posted about that, as well. That said, there is no quick "Off" switch to shut down a war your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief started and fucked up so badly.

OTOH, the only alternative was yet another Republican idiot, John McCain, a hypocritical political whore who has shown he'll vote either side of any issue at any given moment, depending on who's offering him the shiney quarter.

And thanks for acknowledging how wrong the Bushwhackos were on all of those issues. If I recall correctly, you were among those pimping their actions and denying and defending all of their crimes.

Are they no less wrong or criminal now that you charge the Obama adminstration of the same things? 😕

We could take your little song and make it apply to Obama without changing any lines I believe.

What do you have to say about that?

Since you were nice enough to be specific, I'll post the lyrics, and you can make your own decisions.

Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?

Words and Music by Harvey Rubens
Copyright © 2006

Verse 1:

I see men looking over their shoulder,
Running hard just trying to stay alive,
And they say that it's gonna get colder before it gets better.

At the time of the crime, who believed us?
We all took a fall on the ride,
When the powers that be had deceived us to leave us the debtor.

Chorus:

And who's watching over who's watching over you?
Tell me who's telling who's telling you what to do what to do?

Verse 2:

All the forces of war were compelling,
And blacker than Colin, the Knight,
And the lies they were telling, they sell in the name of their savior.

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

Chorus:

Verse 3:

I see men who are trying to squeeze us,
And taking whatever they can,
While they buy those who try to appease us with scraps from their table.

It gets harder each day to break even.
This wasn't a part of my plan.
Time is right to be fighting or leaving this tower of Babel.

Chorus:

Sadly, some of these lyrics still apply. The fact that Obama's dealing with the fallout from the Bushwhackos' crimes doesn't make me any happier that the circumstances still exist. The title is, "Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?" and it questions the Constitutionalality of the way our own government is spying on our citizens. Read the lyrics of second half of the second verse.

I'm also dismayed that Obama hasn't closed Guantanamo or halted secret and highly questionable treatment of "detainees." We don't know exactly what is being done. If it turns out that he's as bad as Bush, he should be prosecuted for the same crimes.

Which reminds me, the third verse is a call to action to change what's wrong with our nation. It doesn't say anything about Bush, Obama or anyone else. Things are very wrong, and we're headed for much worse if we don't get rid of all of the criminals and turn things around. 🙁

Ooop! I've done it again. I've called for the Obama administration to held to the same standard I demanded should be applied to the Bushwhackos. So much for another of your bogus distractions and diversions. :\

But that's what you always do, PJ. You lie, you distract and you dissemble in a lame attempt to divert attention from the facts of any immediate wingnut malfeasance. 🙄

 

[Lemon law]

Earth to Non Prof John, I said Bill Clinton was far more liberal than Obama, but that does not mean either are true liberals. A distinction that obviously sails above your head.

Then you make another mistake, you may or might not be correct in asserting the USA may not see a females President in the next one or two decades, but the flaw in your reasoning is the fact, that its American voters, both male and female, who decide who the next President will be. And when female voters are about half the electorate and lean strongly democratic, and more and more men can only get minimum wage jobs due to GOP policy, there will not be enough GOP leaning men, to make up the shortfall.

No matter how many GOP TV commercials the very few rich can run.

 

[dali71]

You ARE wrong.

Yet you're not confident enough to take me up on my offer. Even though you won't admit it, you know that the American people see through Obama and will show their discontent with his "leadership" next year. Knowing this, there's no way in hell you would agree to something that will prevent you from ranting and raving here about whichever Republican defeats Obama. It's okay, you can admit it. 😀

 

[ProfJohn]

It is nice to see you admit that many of the policy decisions made by Bush have been continued by Obama.

We differ on the 'why' behind them though.

When it comes to the War on terror I believe that Bush and Obama have both done what they think is the right thing to do and the fact that so many of the policies are so similar illustrates that much of what Bush did was the best course of action.

If a far lefty like Obama can't close gitmo or end the patriot act then maybe there is a reason those polices were put into place in the first place.

We may not like or agree with the reasons, but the fact that two administrations from exact opposite sides of the political spectrum have the same solutions should tell you a lot about those solutions.

As for everything else:
Iraq: to early to tell if it will be worth the cost, but we certainly made a lot of mistakes in how we fought the war and I don't think anyone would have supported it if we knew what the costs would be.

Debt: Obama is worse than Bush, by far. Pre-recession the debt was getting smaller under Bush. Pre-GOP take over last fall Obama seemed to have no plans to shrink the debt. Even now Obama and the Democrats seem to have no real desire to cut spending a shown by their calls for a 'clean debt ceiling' increase.

 

[ProfJohn]

Earth to Non Prof John, I said Bill Clinton was far more liberal than Obama, but that does not mean either are true liberals. A distinction that obviously sails above your head.

How can you believe that?

Are you that blind?

Clinton was a centrist southern Democrat. He WAS pro-life before he ran for the Presidency. He was certainly to the left of everyone in the Republican Party, but as a Democrat he would have been far to the right of today's party.

Obama is a FAR left northern liberal. He makes Clinton look like Goldwater in comparison.
In 2007 Obama had one of THE most liberal voting record in the Senate! More liberal than Biden or Hillary.

"Indeed, while Obama ranks as the magazine's most liberal senator of 2007, his ranking was 16th in 2005 and 10th in 2006."
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2008/01/31/4427310-is-obama-the-most-liberal-senator

This new liberal fairy tale that Obama isn't a liberal is ridiculous.

 

[Harvey]

Yet you're not confident enough to take me up on my offer. Even though you won't admit it, you know that the American people see through Obama and will show their discontent with his "leadership" next year. Knowing this, there's no way in hell you would agree to something that will prevent you from ranting and raving here about whichever Republican defeats Obama. It's okay, you can admit it. 😀

Your "offer" is bullshit. Since you're apparently reading challenged, I'll repeat that I've posted to acknowledge when I'm wrong, and I haven't posted to state that I'm disappointed with some of what Obama's done (or failed to do) since my last post in this thread.

OTOH, EVERY Republican candidate worth considering for President in 2012 is so ethically, morally, intellectually and socially challenged that, unless some worthwhile independent with enough resourses to mount a viable campaign, we're left with having to vote for the least worst alternative.

 

[irishScott]

If Bachman gets the nomination, Obama wins by virtue of lack of crazy. Even the GOP knows this.

 

[Lemon law]

Well lets see, non Prof John, as you base your opinions on a fluff piece, with the disclusuer that, "Full disclosure: This reporter worked and wrote for National Journal from 1997 to 2003."

That is like really current and predates the giant drop in GWB popularity. The wow and gee garhottie, that so proves you are right now in 2011, or more importantly in 11/2012. Maybe I can dig up a few articles from the 1500's asserting monarchy is the best government method ever. Or we can site your track record of predicting elections on this forums.

 

[ProfJohn]

If Bachman gets the nomination, Obama wins by virtue of lack of crazy. Even the GOP knows this.

Maybe...

With the way things are going now Obama might actually lose to Bachmann. But I don't think the GOP has to worry about her that much. She won't get past Romney & Perry. Both are better candidates and the GOP has a good track record of picking candidates who can win.

 

[Harvey]

It is nice to see you admit that many of the policy decisions made by Bush have been continued by Obama.

We differ on the 'why' behind them though.

When it comes to the War on terror I believe that Bush and Obama have both done what they think is the right thing to do and the fact that so many of the policies are so similar illustrates that much of what Bush did was the best course of action.

If you don't understand that shredding the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under the U.S. Constitution, lying to Congress and the American people to commit our nation to a war that has killed thousands of our citizens, wounded tens of thousands more and squandered trillions of dollars in current funds and future debt and committing horrific acts of torture and other war crimes and crimes against humanity is imperatively WRONG, you're as ethically, morally and intellectuall challenged as the Bushwhackos, themselves.

Maybe you don't like the freedoms allegedly provided by our Constitution, but I rather miss them. 🙁

If a far lefty like Obama can't close gitmo or end the patriot act then maybe there is a reason those polices were put into place in the first place.

We may not like or agree with the reasons, but the fact that two administrations from exact opposite sides of the political spectrum have the same solutions should tell you a lot about those solutions.

As a genuine liberal, I can tell you that Obama is nobody's "far lefty," but I don't have the kind of information that would allow me to judge how quickly that could be, or could have been, accomplished. I certainly don't approve of it, now, and unlike you, I NEVER supported or defended it in the first place.

As for everything else:
Iraq: to early to tell if it will be worth the cost, but we certainly made a lot of mistakes in how we fought the war and I don't think anyone would have supported it if we knew what the costs would be.

BULLSHIT! Iraq never was and never will be "worth the cost" of the truth, of the lives, of our Constitution, of our honor as a nation, even before you get to the trillions of dollars. Those costs WERE predicted by those who opposed going into Iraq, even before it started. Do I have to drag out my macros documenting names dates and statements? I'll give you one:

In his memoirs, A World Transformed (1998), written with Brent Scowcroft, on pp. 489 - 490, George H.W. Bush predicted exactly what has happened:

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

Sound familiar? 😱 If only his idiot son could read! 🙁

Debt: Obama is worse than Bush, by far. Pre-recession the debt was getting smaller under Bush. Pre-GOP take over last fall Obama seemed to have no plans to shrink the debt. Even now Obama and the Democrats seem to have no real desire to cut spending a shown by their calls for a 'clean debt ceiling' increase.

Do you just intentionally lie, or are you so mathmatically and economically challenged that you really don't have a clue about how the planet works? It would take a small encyclopedia to reply to all the bullshit in that last statement, most of which has been from readily available credible sources and most of which has already been posted in multiple threads on this forum over the last number of years. 🙄

 

[MotF Bane]

Your "offer" is bullshit. Since you're apparently reading challenged, I'll repeat that I've posted to acknowledge when I'm wrong, and I haven't posted to state that I'm disappointed with some of what Obama's done (or failed to do) since my last post in this thread.

OTOH, EVERY Republican candidate worth considering for President in 2012 is so ethically, morally, intellectually and socially challenged that, unless some worthwhile independent with enough resourses to mount a viable campaign, we're left with having to vote for the least worst alternative.

Voting for a lesser evil is still voting for evil.

t

 

[Harvey]

Voting for a lesser evil is still voting for evil.

t

I agree, and didn't say I was happy about it. We're reduced to minimizing the damage, but here is no viable alternative, especially none with a "(R)" after it. :\

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Im not worried. If Perry wins he will use prayer to fix all of our problems.

 

[ProfJohn]

Maybe you don't like the freedoms allegedly provided by our Constitution, but I rather miss them. 🙁

So what freedoms are you missing that you had pre-9/11??

How has your day to day life changed?

Flying on an airplane sure sucks, but otherwise.... I can't seem to recall much of anything that is different than it was 10 years ago.

 

[trenchfoot]

Im not worried. If Perry wins he will use prayer to fix all of our problems.

Wow, just thinking about what would happen if the repubs get to duplicate what Bush/Cheney did makes me wan'na.......uhhh, damn, where'd I put that voodoo doll of Cheney again?😉

 

[MomentsofSanity]

So what freedoms are you missing that you had pre-9/11??

How has your day to day life changed?

Flying on an airplane sure sucks, but otherwise.... I can't seem to recall much of anything that is different than it was 10 years ago.

I'm confused. I endlessly read how Obama is robbing every freedom from Americans. So now he isn't?

 

[ProfJohn]

Do you just intentionally lie, or are you so mathmatically and economically challenged that you really don't have a clue about how the planet works? It would take a small encyclopedia to reply to all the bullshit in that last statement, most of which has been from readily available credible sources and most of which has already been posted in multiple threads on this forum over the last number of years. 🙄

So you make a statement but you won't even try to back it up??

Here in simple terms:
Bush added almost $5 trillion to the debt in 8 years.
Obama will have added $4.3 trillion by the end of this fiscal year alone!

Of course it isn't that simple since some of that debt would have happened no matter what and some of it is due to drops in revenue etc etc.

But when you subtract what Bush expected the debt to be for 2009,10+11 and subtract out the amount of debt from lost revenue you end up with a figure of $1.41 trillion.

That is exactly how much debt from the last 3 years is completely 100% Obama's and all of it comes from higher spending under Obama.

Now $1.4 trillion works out to $466 billion a year which is a significant number because that is more than what Bush added to the debt in his WORST year.

And remember this is after giving Obama a free pass on the drop in revenue and increases in spending that Bush budget for.

I'll even break the numbers for you...
Bush's expected revenue and spending:
2009 $2.69t $3.10t
2010 $2.93t $3.09t
2011 $3.07t $3.17t

Obama's actually revenue and spending (2011 is estimated)
2009 $2.10t $3.51t
2010 $2.16t $3.45T
2011 $2.17t $3.81t

So now all we have to do is figure out the difference.
Bush's estimated revenue minus actual revenue
$8.69t -
$6.43t
$2.26 trillion. That is how much of the Obama's debt comes from shrinking revenue.

Now spending
$9.36t-
10.77T
$1.41 trillion. That is how much comes from Obama's excessive spending. And remember that is spending above and beyond what Bush had already planned on spending.

And you guys bitched about Bush's spending.

Bush's 2009 budget
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Obama's 2012 budget
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/hist.pdf
Monthly treasure statement for 2011 figures
http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0711.pdf

 

[Harvey]

So what freedoms are you missing that you had pre-9/11??
How has your day to day life changed?

Flying on an airplane sure sucks, but otherwise.... I can't seem to recall much of anything that is different than it was 10 years ago.

Figures that either you'd try to dissemble and distract from the facts... YET A-fucking-GAIN..., or you're too stupid to realize what you've lost. Unlike some of the wingnuts on this forum, I don't think you're that stupid so I'll just have to continue to believe with you're a liar. :thumbsdown:

Do you know, or do you just not care that YOUR Constitutional rights have been, and continue to be, thrashed? Are your phone calls and e-mails being monitored?

What's more important is that our government can and has do monitored virtually all phone and Internet traffic. Considering the criminality of those who have done so, and are continuing to do so, now, I don't trust them not to abuse that power to arrest, imprison and torture American citizens to suit their own political purposes.

Don't think it can happen? It already has! That's what Nixon and his criminal henchmen were doing to Daniel Elsberg in the case of the Pentagon Papers when they spied on him and broke into his psychiatrist's office. And they didn't have the advantage of real time electronic surveillance of his phone and Internet traffic. 😱

People fought and died to defend our Constitution that defines our rights and bars exactly that kind of abuse, and wingnuts like you are willing to piss those rights away in the name of political power and their own personal greed. You are welcome to relinquish your own Constitutional rights. I will NOT stand silent while pissant wingnut jackasses continue to steal mine. 😡

 

[ProfJohn]

I'm confused. I endlessly read how Obama is robbing every freedom from Americans. So now he isn't?

Who is making that claim??

The only freedom he is robbing would be economic freedom, but as for civil freedoms we are pretty much in the same place we were in 2008 or in 2000 etc etc.

If you want you can make the slippery slope argument about civil liberties and warrantless wiretaps etc etc. But based on recent media reports we have more to worry about news companies and Chinese hackers getting our personally information than the US government.

 

[nageov3t]

I'll admit, she was impressive on Meet the Press today.

Q: Do you respect gay people?
A: I'm running for president of America.
Q: But do you respect gay people?
A: I'm running for president of America.

that's some impressive reflection. a Dick Cheney-esque refusal to even admit that the interviewer is in the room.

Sarah Palin would have gotten into a huff and then complained about it on Facebook for half an hour.

 

[Harvey]

Who is making that claim??

The only freedom he is robbing would be economic freedom, but as for civil freedoms we are pretty much in the same place we were in 2008 or in 2000 etc etc.

Translation: We're still stuck with the loss of Constitutional rights stolen from us by your Bushwhacko overlords that would be continued and expanded by wingnuts wannabe tyrants like you.

If you want you can make the slippery slope argument about civil liberties and warrantless wiretaps etc etc. But based on recent media reports we have more to worry about news companies and Chinese hackers getting our personally information than the US government.

It's not a "slippery slope." We're already plumbing the slippery depths of a slippery pit. And as long as you're mentioning < cough > "news" companies... < cough >... FOX... < cough >, I've often wondered if you're on Rupert's payroll.

But it's nice to see that you recognize that we face the same kind of threats from enemies like Murdoch, Newscorp, Faux, etc. as we do from those Chinese and other government sponsored hackers we know are trying to do us in. Of course, there is ONE difference -- Unlike the Chinese, Murdoch and his criminals are Americans attacking the rights of their supposedly fellow citizens.

But thanks for yet another fine example of the way you toss out extraneous bullshit to distract and divert attention from the wingnuts' attacks on our Constitution. :thumbsdown:

With any luck, Murdoch and his criminal son and the rest of that criminal cabal will spend the rest of thier lives in prison for what they've already done. Personally, I wish we could revoke his American citizenship. All he's done since he got here is try to corrupt the rights of every other American citizen.

Go ahead. Next, you'll try to tell us that Murdoch and Newscorp and Faux Noise don't have a right wingnut agenda, and they haven't abused their access to communications to further their conspiracy.

Of course, if you do, it will be obvious that it's just more of your lies.

 

[Howard]

Are you intentionally misspelling her name?

Hello? Why don't you answer the fucking question?

 

[UberNeuman]

I think it's safe to say that she's sealed up the corndog vote...

 

[ScottFern]

Bachman is a scary evangelical nightmare for the GOP. No thanks. Ron Paul should of won.

 

[Dominato3r]

Watching Meet the Press right now... she really dislikes gay people huh.