McCain wants to lift ban on offshore drilling

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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: quest55720
Good for McCain I am glad he came to his senses and can see how bad people are hurting over this. I can only imagine how bad it is going to get this winter if nothing is done. Lots of people in my area use fuel oil to heat their homes during the cold Minnesota winter. I can see many families having to choose between heat and food this winter if nothing is done. The high gas prices are not hurting the rich guy who drives a hummer or Esclade. It hurts the people who drive old cars that get crappy MPG because they can not afford new ones. It pisses me off to hear so many people happy about these higher gas prices. They don't think of the impact it has on those who are not well off. Not everyone can afford a new hybrid that gets 50MPG. The higher gas prices have forced me to work more hours a week to keep afloat.

I say open it all up and the royalties the government gets from the oil companies for land usage can go towards alternative energy research and incentives. I will not vote for any canidate who is against drilling. I think we can do both drilling and look for alternative energy at the same time. One can help in the short term and the other the long term.

Fuel prices are very, very low right now. It's the light, sweet crude oil that's so expensive. There's a huge difference.

EDIT: Here's an excellent article to the oil crisis:

http://www.economist.com/finan....cfm?story_id=11453090

Double, double, oil and trouble

Is it ?peak oil? or a speculative bubble? Neither, really


AFTER oil hit its recent record of $135 a barrel, consumers and politicians started to lash out in every direction. Fishermen in France have been blockading ports and pouring oil on the roads in protest. British lorry drivers have paraded coffins through London as a token of the imminent demise of the haulage industry. In response, Gordon Brown, Britain's prime minister, is badgering oil bosses to increase production from the North Sea, while Nicolas Sarkozy, the president of France, wants the European Union to suspend taxes on fuel.

In America, too, politicians are haranguing oil bosses and calling for tax cuts. Congress has approved a bill to prevent the government from adding to America's strategic stocks of oil, and is contemplating another to enable American prosecutors to sue the governments of the Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) for market manipulation.

But the most popular scapegoats are ?speculators? of the more traditional sort. OPEC itself routinely blames them for high prices. The government of India is so sure that speculation makes commodities dearer that it has banned the trading of futures contracts for some of them (although not oil). Germany's Social Democratic Party proposes an international ban on borrowing to buy oil futures, on the same grounds. Joe Lieberman, chairman of the Senate's Homeland Security Committee, is also mulling regulation of some sort, having concluded that ?speculators are responsible for a big part of the commodity price increases?. The assumption underlying such ideas is that a bubble is forming, and that if it were popped, the price of oil would be much lower.

Others assume the reverse: that the price is bound to keep rising indefinitely, since supplies of oil are running short. The majority of the world's crude, according to believers in ?peak oil?, has been discovered and is already being exploited. At any rate, the size of new fields is diminishing. So production will soon reach a pinnacle, if it has not done so already, and then quickly decline, no matter what governments do.

As different as these theories are, they share a conviction that something has gone badly wrong with the market for oil. High prices are seen as proof of some sort of breakdown. Yet the evidence suggests that, to the contrary, the rising price is beginning to curb demand and increase supply, just as the textbooks say it should.

Stocks, bonds and barrels
Those who see speculators as the culprits point to the emergence of oil and other commodities as a popular asset class, alongside stocks, bonds and property. Ever more investors are piling into the oil markets, the argument runs, pushing up the price as they do so. The number of transactions involving oil futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX), the biggest market for oil, has almost tripled since 2004. That neatly mirrors a tripling of the price of oil over the same period.

But Jeffrey Harris, the chief economist of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), which regulates NYMEX and other American commodities exchanges, does not see any evidence that the growth of speculation in oil has caused the price to rise. Rising prices, after all, might have been stimulating the growing investment, rather than the other way around. There is no clear correlation between increased speculation and higher prices in commodities markets in general. Despite a continuing flow of investment in nickel, for example, its price has fallen by half over the past year.

By the same token, the prices of several commodities that are not traded on any exchange, and are therefore much harder for speculators to invest in, have risen even faster than that of oil. Deutsche Bank calculates that cadmium, a rare metal, has appreciated twice as much as oil since 2001, for example, and the price of rice has risen fractionally more.

Investment can flood into the oil market without driving up prices because speculators are not buying any actual crude. Instead, they buy contracts for future delivery. When those contracts mature, they either settle them with a cash payment or sell them on to genuine consumers. Either way, no oil is hoarded or somehow kept off the market. The contracts are really a bet about which way the price will go and the number of bets does not affect the amount of oil available. As Mr Harris puts it, there is no limit to the number of ?paper barrels? that can be bought and sold.

That makes it harder for a bubble to develop in oil than in the shares of internet firms, say, or in housing, where the supply of the asset is finite. Ultimately, says David Kirsch of PFC Energy, a consultancy, there is only one type of customer for crude: refineries. If speculators on the futures markets get carried away, pushing prices so high that refineries run at a loss, they will simply shut down, causing the price to fall again. Moreover, speculators do not always assume that prices will rise. As recently as last year, the speculative bears on NYMEX outweighed the bulls.

There is, admittedly, a growing category of inherently bullish investment funds that seek to track commodity-price indices, in which oil is usually the biggest component. Politicians have begun to denounce these ?index funds?, since they make money for their investors only if prices rise. According to Mr Lieberman, they have grown in value from $13 billion to $260 billion over the past five years. This surge of investors betting on rising prices, many observers contend, has become a self-fulfilling prophecy, helping to push prices ever higher and thus attract yet more investment.

But Bob Greer, of PIMCO, an asset-management firm, argues that even index funds make unlikely suspects. For one thing, they too invest in futures, rather than in physical supplies of oil. So every month, they must trade contracts that are about to fall due for ones that will not mature for several months. That makes them big sellers of oil for prompt delivery.

What is more, their growth is not as impressive as it first appears. Paul Horsnell of Barclays Capital, an investment bank, puts the total value of index funds and other similar investments at $225 billion. That is less than half the market capitalisation of Exxon Mobil, he points out, and a tiny fraction of the $50 trillion-odd of transactions in the oil markets each year. Although index funds have grown quickly, that growth stems in large part from the rise in value of the futures they hold, rather than from fresh investment flows. He estimates that index funds swelled by $13 billion in the first quarter of this year, for example, of which all but $2 billion derives from the rise in commodity prices.

Back to basics
Mr Harris of the CFTC, for one, believes that the oil price is still a function of supply and demand. For the past few years, the world's production capacity has grown only sluggishly. Meanwhile, demand, especially from the developing world, has been growing faster. So there is hardly any slack in the system. Only Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are thought to be able to increase their output from today's levels, and even then, there are doubts, since Saudi Arabia, in particular, is secretive about the state of its oil industry.

That leaves the oil market at the mercy of even small disruptions to supply. Prices tend to jump each time militants sabotage an oil pipeline in Nigeria, bad weather threatens production in the Gulf of Mexico, or political clouds gather over the Persian Gulf.

The problem is exacerbated by a growing mismatch between the type of oil being produced and the refineries that must process it. The most common benchmark prices, including the one used in this article, refer to ?light? crude, the least viscous sort, which produces the most petrol and diesel when refined. ?Heavy? oil, by contrast, yields more fuel oil, which is used mainly for heating.

At the moment, diesel is in short supply and there is a glut of fuel oil. That makes processing heavy oil unprofitable for some refineries, since the gains from diesel are outweighed by losses on fuel oil. As refineries turn instead to lighter grades, it pushes their prices yet higher. The discount on heavier crudes has risen to record levels. But even then, points out Ed Morse, of Lehman Brothers, another investment bank, Iran is having trouble selling the stuff. It is storing huge quantities of unsold oil on tankers moored off its coast.

Presumably, Iran and other heavy-oil producers will eventually be obliged to drop prices far enough to make processing the stuff worth refiners' while. In the longer run, more refineries will invest in the equipment needed to crack more diesel out of heavy oil. Both steps will, in effect, increase the world's oil supply, and so help to ease prices.

But improving an existing refinery or building a new one is a slow and capital-intensive business. Firms tend to be very conservative in their investments, since refineries have decades-long life-spans, during which prices and profits can fluctuate wildly. It can also be difficult to find a site and obtain the right permits?one of the reasons why no new refineries have been built in America for over 30 years. Worse, new kit is becoming ever more expensive. Cambridge Energy Research Associates (CERA), a consultancy, calculates that capital costs for refineries and petrochemical plants have risen by 76% since 2000.

Much the same applies to the development of new oilfields. CERA reckons that the cost of developing them has risen even faster?by 110%. At the same time, oilmen remain scarred by the rapid expansion of output in the late 1970s, in response to previous spikes in prices, that led to a glut and so to a prolonged slump. Exxon Mobil claims that it still assesses the profitability of potential investments using the same assumptions about the long-term oil price as it did at the beginning of the decade, for fear that prices might tumble again. Environmental concerns are also an obstacle: America, for one, has banned oil production off most of its coastline.

Increasing nationalism on the part of oil-rich countries is adding to the difficulties. Geologists are convinced that there is still a lot of oil to be discovered in the Middle East and the former Soviet Union, but governments in both regions are reluctant to give outsiders access. Elsewhere, the most promising areas for exploration are also the most technically challenging: in deep water, or in the Arctic, or both. Although there have been big recent discoveries in such places, they will take longer to develop, and costs will be higher. The most expensive projects of all involve the extraction of oil from bitumen, shale and even coal, through elaborate processing. The potential for these is more or less unlimited, although analysts put the costs as high as $70 a barrel?more than the oil price this time last year.

Nonetheless, PFC Energy has examined projects that are already under way, and concluded that global oil production will grow by over 3m barrels a day (b/d) over the course of this year and next. In particular, it expects production outside OPEC to grow by about 500,000 b/d both years?a marked increase from the near stagnation of recent years.

Meanwhile, the high price is clearly beginning to crimp demand. The growth in global consumption last year was barely a quarter what it was in 2004 (see chart); this year, it is likely be even lower. In rich countries (or at least among the members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), a rough proxy), the effect is even more pronounced. Consumption has been falling for the past two and a half years.

Poorer countries' demand for oil is still rising, albeit at a slowing pace. That is partly because their economies are growing faster, and partly because their consumers are shielded from the rising price through subsidies. But the increasing expense of such measures is forcing governments to water them down or scrap them altogether (see article). That, in turn, should further sap consumption.

Oil pique

China's growing thirst for oil is often put forward as one of the main factors behind today's higher oil prices. Demand for diesel there, for example, rose by over 9% in the year to April. But Mr Morse argues that such growth might not last. The government has ordered oil firms to increase their stocks of fuel by 50% to be sure there are no embarrassing shortages during the Olympics. It is also planning to run some power plants near Beijing on diesel rather than coal, in an attempt to reduce pollution during the games. These measures are helping to boost China's demand for diesel, but the effect will be transitory.

In the short run, neither demand for nor supply of oil is very elastic. It takes time for people to replace their old guzzlers with more fuel-efficient cars, or to switch to jobs with shorter commutes, or to move closer to public transport. By the same token, it can take ten years or more to develop an oilfield after its discovery?and that does not include the time firms need to bolster their exploration units.

Gary Becker, an economist at the University of Chicago, has calculated that in the past, over periods of less than five years, oil consumption in the OECD dropped by only 2-9% when the price doubled. Likewise, oil production in countries outside OPEC grew by only 4% every time the price doubled. But over longer periods, consumption dropped by 60% and supply rose by 35%. The precise numbers may be slightly different this time round, but the pattern will be the same.


 

owensdj

Golden Member
Jul 14, 2000
1,711
6
81
Offshore drilling will take many years to get started, and even when the new rigs are pumping it won't help that much. When global demand goes up the price of oil will still go up. $4/gallon gas needs to be a wake up call to get Americans on the path of phasing out the use of oil.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Genx87

Topic Title: McCain wants to lift ban on offshore drilling

That should be enough for California to boot his double talking ass to the next planet. :cool:

Ummm. Under his plan, lifting the federal ban means that California gets to decide if they wanna drill.

California doesn't have to do it.

It just means more power to the states. They get to decide.

Great thinking there, Fern, except when the state next to yours decides to fuck the coastline, oil spills and the wildlife they kill don't know squat about state borders.

He isn't going to win CA no matter what he does anyway.

More evidence that Californians really are smarter. :cool:

You are completely off base with your fears of modern day drilling/oil exploration. Oil companies go to HUGE lengths to insure no oil enters the environment. Think about how much you do not want them to spill even a few drops of oil. Their desire to not spill any oil is 10 times greater then yours. Its simple economics really. It costs them a shitpile of money from fines to cleanups to lawsuits when that happens. It is MUCH cheaper for them to simply not allow it to happen in the first place. There are literally thousands of rigs, 600 within a 40 mile radius, off the coast of LA near Port Fourchon and everyday there are tons of people fishing among them. Marine life thrives near the rigs and and I can't recall a single major spill from any of them. Thats more impressive if you consider the recent hurricanes they weathered.

Now think about where the vast majority of major oil spills and ecological damage have come from. Oil tankers. Offshore wells usually transport their oil/gas via pipelines. Imported oil/refined products come in via tanker ships.

Like it or not, we are going to keep consuming more oil than we make. So the question becomes, would you rather more tankers and less rigs or more rigs and less tankers? The best option for the environment by FAR is more domestic wells and expanding the existing pipeline systems.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Genx87

Topic Title: McCain wants to lift ban on offshore drilling

That should be enough for California to boot his double talking ass to the next planet. :cool:

Ummm. Under his plan, lifting the federal ban means that California gets to decide if they wanna drill.

California doesn't have to do it.

It just means more power to the states. They get to decide.

Great thinking there, Fern, except when the state next to yours decides to fuck the coastline, oil spills and the wildlife they kill don't know squat about state borders.

He isn't going to win CA no matter what he does anyway.

More evidence that Californians really are smarter. :cool:

You are completely off base with your fears of modern day drilling/oil exploration. Oil companies go to HUGE lengths to insure no oil enters the environment. Think about how much you do not want them to spill even a few drops of oil. Their desire to not spill any oil is 10 times greater then yours. Its simple economics really. It costs them a shitpile of money from fines to cleanups to lawsuits when that happens. It is MUCH cheaper for them to simply not allow it to happen in the first place. There are literally thousands of rigs, 600 within a 40 mile radius, off the coast of LA near Port Fourchon and everyday there are tons of people fishing among them. Marine life thrives near the rigs and and I can't recall a single major spill from any of them. Thats more impressive if you consider the recent hurricanes they weathered.

Now think about where the vast majority of major oil spills and ecological damage have come from. Oil tankers. Offshore wells usually transport their oil/gas via pipelines. Imported oil/refined products come in via tanker ships.

Like it or not, we are going to keep consuming more oil than we make. So the question becomes, would you rather more tankers and less rigs or more rigs and less tankers? The best option for the environment by FAR is more domestic wells and expanding the existing pipeline systems.

Your argument would be valid if the Exxon Valdez of 1988 wasn't still in the courts because Exxon was trying to minimize their costs.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Genx87

Topic Title: McCain wants to lift ban on offshore drilling

That should be enough for California to boot his double talking ass to the next planet. :cool:

Ummm. Under his plan, lifting the federal ban means that California gets to decide if they wanna drill.

California doesn't have to do it.

It just means more power to the states. They get to decide.

Great thinking there, Fern, except when the state next to yours decides to fuck the coastline, oil spills and the wildlife they kill don't know squat about state borders.

He isn't going to win CA no matter what he does anyway.

More evidence that Californians really are smarter. :cool:

You are completely off base with your fears of modern day drilling/oil exploration. Oil companies go to HUGE lengths to insure no oil enters the environment. Think about how much you do not want them to spill even a few drops of oil. Their desire to not spill any oil is 10 times greater then yours. Its simple economics really. It costs them a shitpile of money from fines to cleanups to lawsuits when that happens. It is MUCH cheaper for them to simply not allow it to happen in the first place. There are literally thousands of rigs, 600 within a 40 mile radius, off the coast of LA near Port Fourchon and everyday there are tons of people fishing among them. Marine life thrives near the rigs and and I can't recall a single major spill from any of them. Thats more impressive if you consider the recent hurricanes they weathered.

Now think about where the vast majority of major oil spills and ecological damage have come from. Oil tankers. Offshore wells usually transport their oil/gas via pipelines. Imported oil/refined products come in via tanker ships.

Like it or not, we are going to keep consuming more oil than we make. So the question becomes, would you rather more tankers and less rigs or more rigs and less tankers? The best option for the environment by FAR is more domestic wells and expanding the existing pipeline systems.

Your argument would be valid if the Exxon Valdez of 1988 wasn't still in the courts because Exxon was trying to minimize their costs.

It just goes to prove my point that the majority of MAJOR oil spills have come from oil tankers. We still get back to the same basic choices. 1. More oil tankers in our waters. 2. More wells and improved pipeline system.

The 2nd option is still the best one for the environment.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,138
8,731
136
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?
 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
Originally posted by: tweaker2
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?

Link to proof please.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,138
8,731
136
Originally posted by: Deudalus
Originally posted by: tweaker2
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?

Link to proof please.

As i mentioned in my post, i watched it on TV, and i think it was C-SPAN. If you check their programming, i'm sure they're going to repeat the broadcast as they usually do. From what i gathered in the closing moments where i had just tuned into, they were recapping their presentation and were reiterating the major points of their speil. I'm guessing it will be under the heading of an Energy Crisis hearing.

 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
Originally posted by: tweaker2
Originally posted by: Deudalus
Originally posted by: tweaker2
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?

Link to proof please.

As i mentioned in my post, i watched it on TV, and i think it was C-SPAN. If you check their programming, i'm sure they're going to repeat the broadcast as they usually do. From what i gathered in the closing moments where i had just tuned into, they were recapping their presentation and were reiterating the major points of their speil. I'm guessing it will be under the heading of an Energy Crisis hearing.

So basically, you think you heard something on TV.

You think it might have been C-Span.

You also think it was the end of a certain show and it might be under the heading of Energy Crisis.

Where in some guy or girl which you didn't name said something that he or she probably didn't back up either and now you are reporting to us as 3rd party loose information.


I'm not trying to be an asshole or belittle you but you realize how weak that is right?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,138
8,731
136
Originally posted by: Deudalus
Originally posted by: tweaker2
Originally posted by: Deudalus
Originally posted by: tweaker2
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?

Link to proof please.

As i mentioned in my post, i watched it on TV, and i think it was C-SPAN. If you check their programming, i'm sure they're going to repeat the broadcast as they usually do. From what i gathered in the closing moments where i had just tuned into, they were recapping their presentation and were reiterating the major points of their speil. I'm guessing it will be under the heading of an Energy Crisis hearing.

So basically, you think you heard something on TV.

You think it might have been C-Span.

You also think it was the end of a certain show and it might be under the heading of Energy Crisis.

Where in some guy or girl which you didn't name said something that he or she probably didn't back up either and now you are reporting to us as 3rd party loose information.


I'm not trying to be an asshole or belittle you but you realize how weak that is right?

Well, considering it was four Senators that answered questions and reinforced each other's points in very strong terms over a period of ten minutes, i'm sure i understood exactly what they were saying or i would'nt have posted what i saw and heard.

Like I said, it was on C-SPAN and it's very likely to be aired again. I'll try to locate a transcript of the hearing for you if you like. But I am definetly not attempting to plant rumors and speculation of any sort into this thread. It's what I heard and what I saw and I thought it would be of interest to the subscribers of this thread.

*edit* - OK, i got onto this C-SPAN website and in the recent program listing there is a heading titled "House Democrats Respond to Pres. Bush on Off-shore Drilling" there are buttons below the heading that will allow you to watch it and read it, however the links did not work for me. It's about the best i can do for you at the moment.

 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
Originally posted by: tweaker2
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?

So the argument is:

At a time of record oil prices the oil companies are sitting on oil that is cheap to get (Read: MUCH more profitable) so that they can drill for oil that is much harder to get (Read: Much less money for oil company)? Keep in mind that bringing that oil online will do very little for global oil prices so the "they are trying to keep prices high by not drilling" argument doesn't work.

Can you think of any other logical reason the oil companies would be sitting on easy cheap oil right now? They are spending TONS of money right now going after deep water wells in the Gulf. If it was profitable to develop the leases you speak of I am quite sure they would already have done it/ in the process.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,138
8,731
136
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: tweaker2
A very good point that was brought up at a recent news conference held by dems of which i tuned into at the tail end of:

It was mentioned that the US oil conglomerates have been sitting on leases of millions of acres of public lands which have proven oil reserves (~5+ years worth?) of which the oil companies haven't done a single thing on to increase domestic production.

Why is it that the oil companies are screaming for more off shore drilling and acquiring drilling rights in the ANWR when they have been sitting on these millions of acres of proven oil reserves for all these years and haven't done a single thing in these easily accessible and far less costly areas to boost domestic production?

All this just to deflect blame onto the tree huggers and away from themselves for purposely restricting domestic production to increase profits?

So the argument is:

At a time of record oil prices the oil companies are sitting on oil that is cheap to get (Read: MUCH more profitable) so that they can drill for oil that is much harder to get (Read: Much less money for oil company)? Keep in mind that bringing that oil online will do very little for global oil prices so the "they are trying to keep prices high by not drilling" argument doesn't work.

Can you think of any other logical reason the oil companies would be sitting on easy cheap oil right now? They are spending TONS of money right now going after deep water wells in the Gulf. If it was profitable to develop the leases you speak of I am quite sure they would already have done it/ in the process.

I was asking a question of which, for the lack of any other "logical" reason seemed one of many plausible queries that might apply. I was not making a statement.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why the oil companies have been sitting on these leases for all these years, and if you know why, then please, by all means share it with me as I and millions of other fellow Americans would like to know.

As to your "logic" that bringing this oil online won't affect prices, I have to ask why then did Pres. Bush go hat in hand to the Saudi's to increase their output if any increase in output will not, as you say, reduce the cost of fuel? Is it not "logical" to assume that the law of supply and demand holds true as far as oil is concerned? Pres. Bush apparently thought so.

So, on the one hand your response defies "logic" itself as you state that the laws of supply and demand do not apply where more supply will not yield less cost to the consumer and then return to a line of reasoning that asks me to think logically to support your apparently illogical premise.

Please clarify. Thanks.



 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: monk3y
*Link*

Pretty far left response but I agree with it. I live in Florida (though not anywhere near the coast).

Alternative energy is a buzz phrase. Ask that writer which alternative energy source is a viable alternative to oil in our economy right now? Which one will be in the next 5 years? How about 10? So in the mean time we should just suck it up, sit on our oil, and import more from foreign nations who are run by moonbats? It is, and I borrow this phrase from Harry Reid, "tired old line of thinking" that has got us into this mess in the first place.
 

monk3y

Lifer
Jun 12, 2001
12,699
0
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I agree with you that the alternative energy argument is completely flawed, though I have seen changes that are positive as a result of rising oil costs. A LOT more people are using public transportation in our town and I mean at least double. It's a good practice that people should have always used (it's freaking FREE here).

To be honest I don't know how much offshore drilling in Florida will help the nation as far as an energy source. I don't find the risk/reward ratio to be in favor of reward. Florida generates a HUGE amount of tourist revenue.

I don't mind drilling off any other coast and making it legal throughout the nation. I just don't want it done off Florida :p. Too much money is at stake. It's just my opinion and I linked the article because the author agrees with some of this.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Well all McCain is proposing is your state can make its own decision the matter. Meaning if Florida fears oil spills then Florida can ban drilling. Right now Florida doesnt even have the choice. And neither does the other 85% of the coast. It all helps and dont be fooled by people who say it wont. It isnt a magic pill to get us to 2 dollar gasoline. But it will help to keep it from going to 20 dollars a gallon. Imagine today if we had drilled in ANWR 10 years ago like congress wanted but Clinton vetoed? We would have 1.5 million more barrels a day on the market.

 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
Energy conservation is the only "alternative fuel" that has the needed long term effect. It actually will return money.

I've never heard of this 1.5M bbls/day from ANWAR..... not even half that. More like 400K.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Energy conservation is the only "alternative fuel" that has the needed long term effect. It actually will return money.

I've never heard of this 1.5M bbls/day from ANWAR..... not even half that. More like 400K.

PRobably be somewhere between those 2 numbers. But even 400k extra barrels days would have a significant impact.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,139
236
106
What ever happened to finding a car that gets better gas millage?

Sorry but the way we burn up oil around here drilling for oil would be like a drop in a bucket. It wouldn't even make a dent in the price.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: ericlp
What ever happened to finding a car that gets better gas millage?

Sorry but the way we burn up oil around here drilling for oil would be like a drop in a bucket. It wouldn't even make a dent in the price.

Because it takes 20 years to turn over our car fleet. If you sell your gas guzzler today, someone will buy it at a discount tomorrow. But here is good news in alll this. IF you are driving a 20 year old truck that averages 12mpg, you can replace it cheaply with a much newer truck that will average 15. That 3mpg difference does not sound like much, but it will save 200gallons of gas a year if you drive 12k miles.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,139
236
106
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: ericlp
What ever happened to finding a car that gets better gas millage?

Sorry but the way we burn up oil around here drilling for oil would be like a drop in a bucket. It wouldn't even make a dent in the price.

Because it takes 20 years to turn over our car fleet. If you sell your gas guzzler today, someone will buy it at a discount tomorrow. But here is good news in alll this. IF you are driving a 20 year old truck that averages 12mpg, you can replace it cheaply with a much newer truck that will average 15. That 3mpg difference does not sound like much, but it will save 200gallons of gas a year if you drive 12k miles.

Ummm, last I checked a Mazda B3000 will get about 21 MPG or a Toyota Tacoma with a 4 Cyl will get you close to 28 MPG's,,,

As for drilling for oil and finding it and getting out out of the earth and into your tank it's gonna take probably about the same time. So what's your point.

Besides Ford and Chevy can't stop producing SUV's And Trucks fast enough. No one is buying so I really doubt no one is gonna buy your old clunker and even if they could afford to buy it for a few hundred bulcks they will never be able to afford to drive it.

As according to your math 12K/12*4 = 4000 a year in fuel charges and that's at only 4 bucks a gallon. Probably by next year we'll be up to 6 or 7 bucks so that would be 6 - 7K a year to drive.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: ericlp

Ummm, last I checked a Mazda B3000 will get about 21 MPG or a Toyota Tacoma with a 4 Cyl will get you close to 28 MPG's,,,

If you can downsize to a small truck the savings can be very significant, but if you still a full size truck, the news ones are still more efficient than a 20 year old model. My point a small increase at the bottom is still going to yield significant savings.
As for drilling for oil and finding it and getting out out of the earth and into your tank it's gonna take probably about the same time. So what's your point.

It may take a few years to get oil from out of the ground to in the tank, but it will take far less than the 20 years it takes to turn over the auto fleet.

Besides Ford and Chevy can't stop producing SUV's And Trucks fast enough. No one is buying so I really doubt no one is gonna buy your old clunker and even if they could afford to buy it for a few hundred bulcks they will never be able to afford to drive it.

Suvs and trucks are still going to be made, just in smaller quantities. Suvs are still selling for thousands, not hundreds. If you have a gas hogging suv that is paid for, they are not that expensive to operate as compared to a new car and associated new car payment.

As according to your math 12K/12*4 = 4000 a year in fuel charges and that's at only 4 bucks a gallon. Probably by next year we'll be up to 6 or 7 bucks so that would be 6 - 7K a year to drive.
[/quote]

Actually my math was the delta between 12 and 15mpg. 15mpg saves almost 800 a year at $4/gallon. If you need a truck, now is a good time to pick one up.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
I'm old enough to remember swimming at Ft. Lauderdale and coming back with tar on my body. Not good.

Funny that in 2002 GWB and Jeb Bush were against drilling in Florida, oh right, it was an election year for Jeb Bush.

Text

WASHINGTON -- With his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, looking on, President Bush sealed a deal Wednesday to prevent further oil and gas drilling off the white sand beaches of the Florida Gulf Coast and in the cypress swamps near the Everglades.

The unexpected announcement would require the federal government to repurchase $235 million worth of oil and gas leasing rights in the Destin Dome area, about 25 miles south of Pensacola, and in three wildlife areas including Big Cypress National Preserve.

Jeb Bush acknowledged that the Oval Office announcement would boost his re-election campaign in Florida, the swing state in the 2000 presidential election and a tourism mecca where polls show 75 percent oppose offshore drilling.

Afterward, the clearly buoyed governor spoke to Florida reporters on a car phone and was not at all flustered by a suggestion that his brother George W. Bush was only mining environmental votes in Florida and oil contributions in Alaska, where the presi
dent supports drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

"I disagree with that, but you know what?" Jeb Bush said. "I don't really care. How about that? I'm the governor of Florida and I am incredibly proud that this historic day has come."

President Bush said Wednesday's action "once again demonstrates that my administration will take seriously the views of local communities. The federal government should continue to work closely with states and local communities in solving issues that affect energy security, the economy and the environment."
Jeb Bush and Interior Secretary Gale Norton told reporters after a brief meeting with the president that the actions will help preserve the Florida Panhandle's pristine coastline.

"It just didn't seem right that 25 miles off that coast there would be the possibility of drilling, and today that possibility no longer exists," Bush said.
The governor called the agreement to also repurchase oil drilling rights near the Everglades "a win-win for our state as well."

Wednesday's decision drew rare praise for the president from environmentalists and criticism from his usual allies in the energy industry.

The reaction also underscored the difficulty the administration and Congress have experienced in developing a national energy policy in the wake of California's power crisis last year.

"National energy supply has certainly been handed a setback today," said R. Skip Horvath, president of the Natural Gas Supply Association. He noted that the now-abandoned offshore drilling tract in Florida potentially contained large natural gas reserves -- up to 2.6 trillion cubic feet (the United States consumes almost 22 trillion cubic feet of natural gas annually).

"We cannot continue to chisel away at America's own resources and expect to continue to be self-sufficient in filling future demand," Horvath said.

Sen. John Breaux, D-La., who has supported the president's efforts to open the Arctic refuge to drilling, said, "Once again politics is deciding energy policy. ... Surely the administration that supports drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge should find a way to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, where we have been successfully drilling for the past 60 years."


Twenty of the last twenty-eight years we have had a Republican president. What have they done to get the country off of foreign oil?

Text

There are two prohibitions on offshore drilling, one imposed by Congress and another by executive order signed by Bush's father in 1990. Bush's brother, Jeb, fiercely opposed offshore drilling when he was governor of Florida. What the president now proposes would rescind his father's decision ? but the president took the position that Congress has to act first and then he would follow behind.

Asked why Bush doesn't act first and lift the ban, Keith Hennessey, the director of the president's economic council, said: "He thinks that probably the most productive way to work with this Congress is to try to do it in tandem."
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Energy conservation is the only "alternative fuel" that has the needed long term effect. It actually will return money.

I've never heard of this 1.5M bbls/day from ANWAR..... not even half that. More like 400K.

PRobably be somewhere between those 2 numbers. But even 400k extra barrels days would have a significant impact.

at best 10% more for the US. I can see how that would change the world oil prices and bring oil back down. LOL
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Energy conservation is the only "alternative fuel" that has the needed long term effect. It actually will return money.

I've never heard of this 1.5M bbls/day from ANWAR..... not even half that. More like 400K.

PRobably be somewhere between those 2 numbers. But even 400k extra barrels days would have a significant impact.

at best 10% more for the US. I can see how that would change the world oil prices and bring oil back down. LOL

And that would be from just 1 new field. And that field alone would probably be enough to tip the supply/demand balance and bring supply back above demand. RIght now, the world is wanting more oil than what is being produced.