Massachusetts Hospital Association: Smokers Need Not Apply

[Amused]

Its at nowhere the same level. Unless he has only one employee and cant do the job himself.

Sounds rather biased to me. So people who do not plan ahead and live well within their means should have more rights than those who do?

 

[WelshBloke]

Sounds rather biased to me. So people who do not plan ahead and live well within their means should have more rights than those who do?

Sounds to me like you've reached the clutching at straws stage of the argument.

 

[Amused]

Sounds to me like you've reached the clutching at straws stage of the argument.

No straws needed. If an employment contract is NOT a mutually agreed upon contract, then it is an entitlement that entitles one man to the rights of another man.

If your employer does not have equal rights under the law to terminate the employment contract that you have, you are claiming entitlement to his rights.

 

[WelshBloke]

No straws needed. If an employment contract is NOT a mutually agreed upon contract, then it is an entitlement that entitles one man to the rights of another man.

If your employer does not have equal rights under the law to terminate the employment contract that you have, you are claiming entitlement to his rights.

And now you've reached the "restate my original position and stick my fingers in my ears" stage of the argument.

 

[Amused]

And now you've reached the "restate my original position and stick my fingers in my ears" stage of the argument.

You still ahven't given me a valid reason why you should have more rights than an employer. Being financially retarded is not a valid reason to take the rights of another man.

 

[WelshBloke]

You still ahven't given me a valid reason why you should have more rights than an employer. Being financially retarded is not a valid reason to take the rights of another man.

Why does being an employee make one "financially retarded"?

What loss is an employer being forced to suffer if he cant fire me at will?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You can use all the ridiculous examples you want, but honestly, how many businesses would be successful if they were so picky as in the absurd things you describe?

Going to ridiculous extremes may win the emotional debate, but not the logical one.

Why should you have the right to terminate the employment contract at any time and for any reason and your employer not have the SAME rights you have?

I offered extreme examples to see if there was any limit to what one could expect to tolerate to keep a job. Apparently there is no end of degradation or abuse.

So do you believe an employee should have to smack his kids around to keep his job if he's ordered to? Let's have a yes or no.

 

[Amused]

I offered extreme examples to see if there was any limit to what one could expect to tolerate to keep a job. Apparently there is no end of degradation or abuse.

So do you believe an employee should have to smack his kids around to keep his job if he's ordered to? Let's have a yes or no.

My question to you is why would you want to work for an employer who advocates child abuse???

Alternatively, what if you advocate child abuse and your boss doesn't like it?

This is a completely two way street.

 

[Amused]

Why does being an employee make one "financially retarded"?

What loss is an employer being forced to suffer if he cant fire me at will?

The loss of his rights.

If you cannot switch jobs without going hungry, and that is your rational for maintaining unequal rights over another man, you're financially retarded.

 

[WelshBloke]

The loss of his rights.

If you cannot switch jobs without going hungry, and that is your rational for maintaining unequal rights over another man, you're financially retarded.

Your rational seems to be "because I want to".

What "rights" are you losing?

You're getting the service you're paying for, so what right are you losing?

 

[Amused]

Your rational seems to be "because I want to".

What "rights" are you losing?

You're getting the service you're paying for, so what right are you losing?

Thje right to switch service at will. The right of association. The right to do what the fuck I want to do with my business.

What right do YOU have to force another man to do something he doesn't want to do?

 

[bamacre]

Complete freedom? It would appear that only the employer has that. He can vote for whomever he wants without penalty.

Precisely what business is it of an employer if someone has cloth instead of leather in their car?

Do you think Hooters should be forced to hire male waiters? A strip club male dancers?

 

[WelshBloke]

Thje right to switch service at will. The right of association. The right to do what the fuck I want to do with my business.

What right do YOU have to force another man to do something he doesn't want to do?

Thing is, you don't have the right to do what you want with your business.

You can stamp your feet and swear all you want but those rights don't exist.

 

[Amused]

Thing is, you don't have the right to do what you want with your business.

You can stamp your feet and swear all you want but those rights don't exist.

So because I can't do some things, I can't do this and have to surrender my rights to you?

Nope, sorry. There is no valid reason for an unequality of rights here, other than your myopic desire.

 

[WelshBloke]

So because I can't do some things, I can't do this and have to surrender my rights to you?

Nope, sorry. There is no valid reason for an unequality of rights here, other than your myopic desire.

Which rights were they again?

Just because you believe it and keep repeating it doesn't make it true.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Do you think Hooters should be forced to hire male waiters? A strip club male dancers?

No because that's not their business. I submit that there are things which is none of their business too. Take Amused's perspective there is nothing that an employer can demand or threaten in his mind. We complain about government and rightly so. We would scream if we were forced to vote a certain way or place completely unreasonable demands on us. When even worse can be demanded or financial ruin might be the result we insist on some bizarre equivalence. There is apparently no limit to what can be demanded and that's ridiculous. Facing potential ruin or submit to slavery. What a hell of a choice.

 

[Amused]

Which rights were they again?

Just because you believe it and keep repeating it doesn't make it true.

The same rights you want. To end the employement contract at will.

If you can terminate at will, so should the employer. Period.

 

[Amused]

No because that's not their business. I submit that there are things which is none of their business too. Take Amused's perspective there is nothing that an employer can demand or threaten in his mind. We complain about government and rightly so. We would scream if we were forced to vote a certain way or place completely unreasonable demands on us. When even worse can be demanded or financial ruin might be the result we insist on some bizarre equivalence. There is apparently no limit to what can be demanded and that's ridiculous. Facing potential ruin or submit to slavery. What a hell of a choice.

You act as if you have no choice. You aready equate employment with slavery. As an obligation rather than a mutual agreement.

There is no point in debating if you have this viewpoint.

 

[WelshBloke]

The same rights you want. To end the employement contract at will.

If you can terminate at will, so should the employer. Period.

Where have I asked for that?

If I stop working you can carry on paying me if you really want to.

If you no longer require the work done, then as I said earlier, jobs done.

That doesn't mean you get to fire at will.

 

[Amused]

Where have I asked for that?

If I stop working you can carry on paying me if you really want to.

If you no longer require the work done, then as I said earlier, jobs done.

That doesn't mean you get to fire at will.

Wow...

Again, employement is a mutally agreed upon contract. Not a one sided street. If the employee can terminate the agreement at will, the employer MUST have that same freedom. Period.

 

[pcgeek11]

Every smoker coworker I've ever met was a terrible worker. They took a break every hour, and if they couldn't get it, they were cranky and worked like crap. Ever seen a customer service rep. who hasn't gotten their fix?

I think you get a Bull Shit Flag for this comment.

 

[pcgeek11]

A private business should be able to hire and fire who they wish.

They do. They just don't spell it out.

 

[WelshBloke]

Wow...

Again, employement is a mutally agreed upon contract. Not a one sided street. If the employee can terminate the agreement at will, the employer MUST have that same freedom. Period.

Why? You cant just keep saying the same thing over and over.

The agreement is for the employee to fulfil a service and the employer to compensate the employee.
If I continue to provide that service under the terms of the agreement, you should damn well compensate me.

Again I'll ask you, what do you lose by not being able to fire someone because of something that has no bearing on their job?

And please don't let the answer be, "whaaa, because I want too" I get enough of that from my 5 year old.

 

[Amused]

Why? You cant just keep saying the same thing over and over.

The agreement is for the employee to fulfil a service and the employer to compensate the employee.
If I continue to provide that service under the terms of the agreement, you should damn well compensate me.

Again I'll ask you, what do you lose by not being able to fire someone because of something that has no bearing on their job?

And please don't let the answer be, "whaaa, because I want too" I get enough of that from my 5 year old.

You ARE compensated. Even if he fires you, he still compensated you for your time. Forced job security is NOT compensation. What you want is to FORCE the employer to CONTINUE the agreement after he no longer wants to. That would be the same as YOU being FORCED by the law to work for an employer against your will.

 

[WelshBloke]

You ARE compensated. Even if he fires you, he still compensated you for your time. Forced job security is NOT compensation. What you want is to FORCE the employer to CONTINUE the agreement after he no longer wants to. That would be the same as YOU being FORCED by the law to work for an employer against your will.

:\No its not.

The job is there and you've asked me to do it. The job continues to be there and I continue to do it well, why should you be able to fire me?

The job is there and you've asked me to do it. The job continues to be there and I now don't do it well (by quitting), You stop paying me.

You can see the difference in those two scenarios, yes?

The employer isn't being forced to continue an agreement after he no longer needs to, if he continues to need a job done he should continue to honour the contract.