Masks? We don't need no stinking masks!!!

[Muse]

I absolutely do. In the industry.

If you disagree, please describe a scenario where Pence is a realistically risky health threat, assuming what he is saying regarding testing an monitoring is true (ie secret service and wh medical staff is competent and doing their jobs)

Last I heard he and Mr. T are being tested one time each week. He displayed ignorance and hubris, plainly underscored the fact of his incompetence, and worse, his disregard for common decency. To not wear when all the others present were wearing and in public and in front of the cameras is just unconscionable.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'll say him not wearing posed no real risk, assuming he is monitored and tested routinely, as are the people around him.

Masks do not prevent inhalation exposure for yourself, only respirators do. Masks protect the ones around you from your exhaled droplets.

Wearing one would be mostly political, which the admin has done terribly. I do think there is some danger in overdoing it, but I won't accuse these knuckleheads of that.

Otoh, I was watching the draft, and there was some dumb usage. Eg Gettleman from the Giants was at home, alone in home office. Made his pick, then put on an n95 respirator (incorrectly I might add.) Why? F you doing dude?

Wearing one wrongly or where it doesn't make sense also undermines the message to the public. PPE is always the last line of defense, not the first.

I'm sure that's the design function. OTOH, masks obviously offer at least *some* protection from droplets. As Vice President, it's irresponsible of him to put himself at risk in that environment. He might become infected & spread it around at the White House. Him being there is pure political theater, anyway. The wrongheaded message is that we don't need masks.

 

[Bitek]

Last I heard he and Mr. T are being tested one time each week. He displayed ignorance and hubris, plainly underscored the fact of his incompetence, and worse, his disregard for common decency. To not wear when all the others present were wearing and in public and in front of the cameras is just unconscionable.

Politically and symbolically? Absolutely.
An arrogant move as well. He's an asshole, just for different reasons than some suggest.

Actual risk if the practices described are accurate? Extremely low

His constant Trump asskissing, truth deflection and task force timidity or inaction are a far graver public health threat.
This event just further symbolizes them not taking this seriously.

 

[interchange]

I absolutely do. In the industry.

If you disagree, please describe a scenario where Pence is a realistically risky health threat, assuming what he is saying regarding testing an monitoring is true (ie secret service and wh medical staff is competent and doing their jobs)

Here's one: false negative test.

 

[Bitek]

I'm sure that's the design function. OTOH, masks obviously offer at least *some* protection from droplets. As Vice President, it's irresponsible of him to put himself at risk in that environment. He might become infected & spread it around at the White House. Him being there is pure political theater, anyway. The wrongheaded message is that we don't need masks.

Surgical masks are basically tissues strapped to your face. They are not designed to filter airflow into your lungs. They are not molded and fit tested to seal around your face. That's what the respirators do (eg n95s)

Even if you some of the air you breathe in goes through the mask, plenty of air goes around and straight in to your lungs. That means if air had suspended droplets of virus, some of its going in mask or no.

Eg, you would never do sanding or dusty jobs in just a surgical mask. It's little to no protection.

The value of surgical masks is to catch the crap coming out of your nose and mouth rather than spraying into the air for others to breathe in.

I emphasize this so people understand what masks can and cannot do for you. Misunderstanding can cause people to have a false sense of security and potentially expose themselves to risks.

 

[brycejones]

Surgical masks are basically tissues strapped to your face. They are not designed to filter airflow into your lungs. They are not molded and fit tested to seal around your face. That's what the respirators do (eg n95s)

Even if you some of the air you breathe in goes through the mask, plenty of air goes around and straight in to your lungs. That means if air had suspended droplets of virus, some of its going in mask or no.

Eg, you would never do sanding or dusty jobs in just a surgical mask. It's little to no protection.

The value of surgical masks is to catch the crap coming out of your nose and mouth rather than spraying into the air for others to breathe in.

I emphasize this so people understand what masks can and cannot do for you. Misunderstanding can cause people to have a false sense of security and potentially expose themselves to risks.

Yes this is what has been communicated repeatedly as well by public health officials since they changed their stance to encouraging or requiring masks depending on where you live. The masks aren't there to protect you, they are there to protect others from you.

 

[interchange]

Surgical masks are basically tissues strapped to your face. They are not designed to filter airflow into your lungs. They are not molded and fit tested to seal around your face. That's what the respirators do (eg n95s)

Even if you some of the air you breathe in goes through the mask, plenty of air goes around and straight in to your lungs. That means if air had suspended droplets of virus, some of its going in mask or no.

Eg, you would never do sanding or dusty jobs in just a surgical mask. It's little to no protection.

The value of surgical masks is to catch the crap coming out of your nose and mouth rather than spraying into the air for others to breathe in.

I emphasize this so people understand what masks can and cannot do for you. Misunderstanding can cause people to have a false sense of security and potentially expose themselves to risks.

While a surgical mask is not by any means absolute protection against respiratory droplets, they are absolutely for personal protection in the healthcare setting. Importantly, while there may be particles small enough to pass through a surgical mask, it can reduce transmission because there may not be enough exposure to the infectious agent to cause illness. Obviously, a properly fitted N95 is going to be much more effective filtration and is indicated as PPE for prevention of some infections.

For COVID, there has been difficulty in determining what the efficacy of PPE, and definitely the current recommendation is widespread mask use principally to limit spread from the mask wearer, but to say that they have no possible role in also protecting you is scientifically murky at best, and to say they have no role in protecting a person from infections in general is asinine.

 

[emperus]

Surgical masks are basically tissues strapped to your face. They are not designed to filter airflow into your lungs. They are not molded and fit tested to seal around your face. That's what the respirators do (eg n95s)

Even if you some of the air you breathe in goes through the mask, plenty of air goes around and straight in to your lungs. That means if air had suspended droplets of virus, some of its going in mask or no.

Eg, you would never do sanding or dusty jobs in just a surgical mask. It's little to no protection.

The value of surgical masks is to catch the crap coming out of your nose and mouth rather than spraying into the air for others to breathe in.

I emphasize this so people understand what masks can and cannot do for you. Misunderstanding can cause people to have a false sense of security and potentially expose themselves to risks.

Dude, stop with the words. This was asinine. Made more asinine by the fact he was told to wear one and he and his staff decided against it. There is a huge lack of judgement here. This wasn't a mistake, but a choice he made. A choice which should tell you a lot about who he is, what he believes and how he thinks. All pretty dangerous for the 2nd in line to be president. In my opinion.

edit: Someone at the Mayo clinic should be fired for letting him walk in there without a mask. This is par for the course for this administration. They find a way to sully everything they touch.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I absolutely do. In the industry.

If you disagree, please describe a scenario where Pence is a realistically risky health threat, assuming what he is saying regarding testing an monitoring is true (ie secret service and wh medical staff is competent and doing their jobs)

That is NOT the point......everyone else was wearing a mask! What Pence did was an apparent violation of the world-renowned medical center's policy requiring them.

 

[Mai72]

Pence didn't wear a mask because Trump doesn't wear a mask. That is your answer.

He's scared of Trump, like most Republicans.

 

[JEDIYoda]

There is a better reason for having his lips visible....

“Mike Pence, he’s required to keep his lips free at all times for kissing master’s ass,” Kimmel added.

Jimmy Kimmel Unmasks The NSFW Reason Mike Pence Didn't Wear A Mask

The "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" host is not a fan of the vice president going sans facial covering at the Mayo Clinic.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Stopsignhank]

I prefer people that lead by example and who take what they say seriously. Who better to listen to the guy who says "I don't have it so I am not a problem" Then you have all of those gun toters on the steps of the capital saying "I feel fine so I don't have it"

Or this guy. Who is actually doing what the tells the rest of us to do. Before anyone says it, this picture was taken before the CDC issued guidance to wear masks.

 

[trenchfoot]

Looks like he was really really wanting to have his face recognized and broadcast to the nation that he was out there risking his life for the good of the people by spreading hope and confidence.

Yeh, that really worked out well for him. And here I thought he was just a smidgin smarter than his boss.

 

[Bitek]

While a surgical mask is not by any means absolute protection against respiratory droplets, they are absolutely for personal protection in the healthcare setting. Importantly, while there may be particles small enough to pass through a surgical mask, it can reduce transmission because there may not be enough exposure to the infectious agent to cause illness. Obviously, a properly fitted N95 is going to be much more effective filtration and is indicated as PPE for prevention of some infections.

For COVID, there has been difficulty in determining what the efficacy of PPE, and definitely the current recommendation is widespread mask use principally to limit spread from the mask wearer, but to say that they have no possible role in also protecting you is scientifically murky at best, and to say they have no role in protecting a person from infections in general is asinine.

If you watch the scenes in the hospitals closely, you can see when docs approach patients, they will wear n95s (if they have them), face shields, lab coats and other ppe. When in more common areas (lower risk) they will have surgical masks on.

If you are counting on surgical masks to protect you from airborne particles, you are using the wrong tool.

In another realm, you wouldn't sand drywall with just a surgical mask if you value your lungs. Sure, you see guys doing that in bandanas, suppose it's better than nothing, but that's not proper PPE.

 

[Bitek]

There is a better reason for having his lips visible....

“Mike Pence, he’s required to keep his lips free at all times for kissing master’s ass,” Kimmel added.

Jimmy Kimmel Unmasks The NSFW Reason Mike Pence Didn't Wear A Mask

The "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" host is not a fan of the vice president going sans facial covering at the Mayo Clinic.

www.yahoo.com

Winner

 

[MtnMan]

Social distancing also a no go?

 

[interchange]

If you watch the scenes in the hospitals closely, you can see when docs approach patients, they will wear n95s (if they have them), face shields, lab coats and other ppe. When in more common areas (lower risk) they will have surgical masks on.

If you are counting on surgical masks to protect you from airborne particles, you are using the wrong tool.

In another realm, you wouldn't sand drywall with just a surgical mask if you value your lungs. Sure, you see guys doing that in bandanas, suppose it's better than nothing, but that's not proper PPE.

You're speaking with a doctor. N95 masks + negative pressure rooms are used for airborne precautions (e.g. TB). Droplet precautions (e.g. influenza) uses standard surgical masks. For COVID-19, the CDC's current recommendation is for N95 (+ face shield, gown, gloves) but facemask as an acceptable alternative when N95 not available. Earlier on they weren't recommending routine N95 use for suspected patients. In general right now, hospitals are expecting all personnel to wear a face mask of some sort full time when in the company of others. Outside of COVID, masks aren't indicated unless a patient is under particular precautions or when performing a procedure.

When you write here, please be specific if you are trying to provide information about mask use for COVID or in general.

 

[Muse]

I am not venturing out but I see tons of masks on TV news.

They should cover the nose as well as the mouth.

Masks are said to be more for preventing the wearer from infecting others but it can go the other way, it's just not as efficient in protecting the wearer. But it IS better than nothing.

Masks with relief valves are a bad idea because they majorly reduce the most important function of a mask for this pandemic in that the wearer coughing or sneezing will have discharge going right out the relief valve. I see those on TV news all the time and don't know that I've heard once (on TV) what a bad idea that is. I have some N95 with relief valves but I'm saving them for wild fires or working around the house with power tools.

 

[Bitek]

You're speaking with a doctor. N95 masks + negative pressure rooms are used for airborne precautions (e.g. TB). Droplet precautions (e.g. influenza) uses standard surgical masks. For COVID-19, the CDC's current recommendation is for N95 (+ face shield, gown, gloves) but facemask as an acceptable alternative when N95 not available. Earlier on they weren't recommending routine N95 use for suspected patients. In general right now, hospitals are expecting all personnel to wear a face mask of some sort full time when in the company of others. Outside of COVID, masks aren't indicated unless a patient is under particular precautions or when performing a procedure.

When you write here, please be specific if you are trying to provide information about mask use for COVID or in general.

Fair enough, I do recall someone here was a doc, and wasn't sure if it was you, and the intention wasn't to explain your job to you.

The ultimate point of the discussion was if Pence was an actual risk in what he did, versus a perceived risk and poor example of proper leadership behavior (ie symbolism and politics.)

My point was that he was likely not an actual risk (assuming his information on his case was accurate) and the fixation on wearing a surgical mask (or not) as a determinant of safety can be misplaced.

Pence was wrong IMO, but not for the reasons often cited.

Would you agree or disagree that he represented a tangible threat to spreading CV in the hospital by not wearing a surgical mask? If so, what would be a plausible scenario in which a risk of transmission could be realized?

Additionally I was making the argument that the emphasis the public is placing on mask wearing as measure of safety can be too high, and potentially counterproductive if it gives a false sense of security and licence to avoid more efficient risk prevention measures, such as quarantining, distancing, and hygienic practices.

PPE is always the last and least preferable line of defense in any scenario, and surgical masks are relatively ineffective even in that class of equipment.

 

[VRAMdemon]

But...after what he paid to have his teeth bleached.... He touches spaceships, too.

Also...The mask may have been touched by a woman.

He's playing the "tough guy" for the audience of one. Not only is he not leading by example, this action screams of privilege. He doesn't believe he should have to wear a mask because he is tested every few days and people around him are tested. Unlike the millions of his fellow citizens who can't get a test even if they are in harm's way. Taking time to consider the optics of these kind of situations is just another thing the administration totally fails at doing.

This is an act of God...I don't believe in science, so just let me be me.

 

[interchange]

Fair enough, I do recall someone here was a doc, and wasn't sure if it was you, and the intention wasn't to explain your job to you.

The ultimate point of the discussion was if Pence was an actual risk in what he did, versus a perceived risk and poor example of proper leadership behavior (ie symbolism and politics.)

My point was that he was likely not an actual risk (assuming his information on his case was accurate) and the fixation on wearing a surgical mask (or not) as a determinant of safety can be misplaced.

Pence was wrong IMO, but not for the reasons often cited.

Would you agree or disagree that he represented a tangible threat to spreading CV in the hospital by not wearing a surgical mask? If so, what would be a plausible scenario in which a risk of transmission could be realized?

Additionally I was making the argument that the emphasis the public is placing on mask wearing as measure of safety can be too high, and potentially counterproductive if it gives a false sense of security and licence to avoid more efficient risk prevention measures, such as quarantining, distancing, and hygienic practices.

PPE is always the last and least preferable line of defense in any scenario, and surgical masks are relatively ineffective even in that class of equipment.

I already stated it multiple times. The test can have false negatives.

 

[mikeymikec]

I already stated it multiple times. The test can have false negatives.

And while humanity's understanding of covid19 is improving by the week, anyone would have to be freaking stupid to believe that we know what there is to know about all the methods this disease *currently* uses to transmit.

Having said all of that, I'm surprised that the far more sensible course of action wasn't forced by either side in this:

1: Trump admin rightly concludes that unnecessary PR jobs only increase the chance of infection and so called off the visit. (actually I'm not surprised by this at all, let's say I'd be surprised if a competent administration didn't do this)
2: Clinic tells Trump administration and the request for a visit to take a running jump.

 

[Bitek]

I already stated it multiple times. The test can have false negatives.

Sure, but why are those occurring, and it is likely that the care the VP is getting would have those contributing factors?
Let's assume his medical staff is competent, has access to the most state of the art equipment, that can they run the test on without delay, and they suffer no shortages of reagents, swabs or transport media.
Let's assume his claim of weekly testing of himself and his staff is accurate.

Let's also assume he's not symptomatic, and neither was any of his staff, or if they were they would be following standard quarantine, additional testing, and tracing protocols if so. Media found out last time staff was ill...

Should we also assume that the attendees were also following good distancing and hygiene practices? That the clinic was also following recommended cleaning procedures and environmental controls?

So, if we are calling ourselves the science trusting party, what is probability that such a cascade of failures occurred within the entire regimen of hazard controls such that a single surgical mask made a material difference in the overall risk scenario?

The OP (and multiple other posts) postulated that it was a major breach and could lead to someone's infection.

I say that's an incorrect analysis of the situation, and it's important to understand why that is, and the implication of that conclusion being correct means that there is little to no hope of stopping the spread of the disease if even with access to world class care, that safety still rests on the thin strings of a surgical mask.

Lastly, for everyone's information, the hierarchy of controls, as per CDC. It's why we are doing what we are doing, but also why I say PPE is the last and least effective line of defense.

If surgical masks were so effective at stopping spread, then we've wasted our time social distancing and shutting down the economy.

 

[Homerboy]

It's all an arrogant show to these people.

This is the same guy that went to a football game to stage a walk-out when the players knelt.
This is the same guy that took a motorcade on a closed island?
Etc etc etc.

 

[interchange]

Sure, but why are those occurring, and it is likely that the care the VP is getting would have those contributing factors?
Let's assume his medical staff is competent, has access to the most state of the art equipment, that can they run the test on without delay, and they suffer no shortages of reagents, swabs or transport media.
Let's assume his claim of weekly testing of himself and his staff is accurate.

Let's also assume he's not symptomatic, and neither was any of his staff, or if they were they would be following standard quarantine, additional testing, and tracing protocols if so. Media found out last time staff was ill...

Should we also assume that the attendees were also following good distancing and hygiene practices? That the clinic was also following recommended cleaning procedures and environmental controls?

So, if we are calling ourselves the science trusting party, what is probability that such a cascade of failures occurred within the entire regimen of hazard controls such that a single surgical mask made a material difference in the overall risk scenario?

The OP (and multiple other posts) postulated that it was a major breach and could lead to someone's infection.

I say that's an incorrect analysis of the situation, and it's important to understand why that is, and the implication of that conclusion being correct means that there is little to no hope of stopping the spread of the disease if even with access to world class care, that safety still rests on the thin strings of a surgical mask.

Lastly, for everyone's information, the hierarchy of controls, as per CDC. It's why we are doing what we are doing, but also why I say PPE is the last and least effective line of defense.

If surgical masks were so effective at stopping spread, then we've wasted our time social distancing and shutting down the economy.

1. I don't think there is much clarity on the reasons for false negative tests (e.g. technique, phase of infection, factors inherent to the individual) and more disturbingly the rate of false negative testing (which would also have variance based on methodology and differences between different labs, possibly population being tested, etc.)

2. I will say with confidence unless someone can show me good data otherwise that there is no reason why Pence is protected from a false negative test

3. While it is true that PPE is at the bottom of the hierarchy of infection control, it is absolutely false to say its importance is overridden by other controls. And while that means the more important concerns would be failure to appropriately utilize the higher level of controls, what we have to work on for evidence of his utilization of any controls is a picture of him not wearing a mask in a hospital and account that it was explicitly against recommendations. Perhaps you would suggest an IG investigation is now warranted to investigate the other concerns?

4. Regardless of individual risk, his choice here sows confusion and reaches the public domain who certainly are more vulnerable to misunderstanding which would lead to a decrease in following recommendations for infection control. Even if his reasoning was sound (it's not), this is a very bad action for a leader to take, and that should have been apparent to many who should have had the power to stop him from this decision. Further, his doubling down on the choice just reinforces the damage