Mar-A-Lago members virtually running the VA

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,511
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As a veteran, while I think UC doesn’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to health care I completely agree with him that non-veterans are just as able to talk about this as anyone else. They are paying for it in part so they get a say.

That being said I do think it’s a problem that this thread has been diverted away from the absolutely colossal corruption this shows and I’m partly to blame for that so, I’m sorry!

No. You do not get to talk about something from a position of complete ignorance and have your opinion carry any weight whatsoever, much less hijack an entire conversation. To have a valid argument about Veterans affairs, one should either be a veteran, or have consulted with a broad number of veterans and represent their interests.

Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ass based on your ideology, rather than reality and facts.

Ugly talks about Veterans affairs with as much knowledge as he talks about the experience of blacks in America.

None.

He runs around attempting to make everything fit his ideology, rather than conforming his ideology to reality.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
50,768
136
No. You do not get to talk about something from a position of complete ignorance and have your opinion carry any weight whatsoever, much less hijack an entire conversation. To have a valid argument about Veterans affairs, one should either be a veteran, or have consulted with a broad number of veterans and represent their interests.

Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ass based on your ideology, rather than reality and facts.

Ugly talks about Veterans affairs with as much knowledge as he talks about the experience of blacks in America.

None.

He runs around attempting to make everything fit his ideology, rather than conforming his ideology to reality.

I very much agree he’s talking about things he doesn’t understand and that’s a problem. My only point is that non-veterans should not be excluded from discussing veterans programs. It’s their money too.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,511
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I very much agree he’s talking about things he doesn’t understand and that’s a problem. My only point is that non-veterans should not be excluded from discussing veterans programs. It’s their money too.

I disagree. We veterans served our country and have a set of very specific health needs. The VA was set up to serve us. It should be managed and legislated by us.

This is the deal the US voter gets when we fight their fucking wars for them. They lose the right to cut (or manage/have a say in) our fucking funding after services rendered.

And if their only interest is in the money spent, and not the outcome, fuck them.
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,896
7,426
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Don't know much about other states, but I've been on a combined health benefit package that includes Tricare. I've been going to Spark Matsunaga VA Hospital at Tripler Army Medical and I get great service there.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
Yeh, explain why Trump set up his rich club buddies to act as a shadow governing body of the VA. I mean, you know, as if they're vaguely qualified or as if Trump really has the legal authority to do that.

Congress? Like the GOP leadership will cross Trump ahead of this election.

I’ve no idea but certainly see it as something worth shining some light on. As for Congress are the Dems restricted from pursuing if the GOP aren’t on board? Serious question I dunno.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
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I disagree. We veterans served our country and have a set of very specific health needs. The VA was set up to serve us. It should be managed and legislated by us.

This is the deal the US voter gets when we fight their fucking wars for them. They lose the right to cut (or manage/have a say in) our fucking funding after services rendered.

And if their only interest is in the money spent, and not the outcome, fuck them.

This reminds me of the standard set in Starship Troopers (the book). Personally I don’t agree.

While I agree our country owes a great deal to those who sacrifice their time, health, and lives for them that doesn’t change the fact that our military serves at the pleasure of our citizens, not the other way around.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
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I’ve no idea but certainly see it as something worth shining some light on. As for Congress are the Dems restricted from pursuing if the GOP aren’t on board? Serious question I dunno.

Yes, the various congressional committees can only issue subpoenas (which is what you need) with a majority vote. As the Republicans control the committees those votes are unlikely to happen.

This is a giant corruption issue and yet again congressional Republicans will do nothing. Even if you’re a conservative you should want the Democrats to take Congress if for no other reason than to stop shit like this.
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,511
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This reminds me of the standard set in Starship Troopers (the book). Personally I don’t agree.

While I agree our country owes a great deal to those who sacrifice their time, health, and lives for them that doesn’t change the fact that our military serves at the pleasure of our citizens, not the other way around.

I agree with everything you say up until it comes to taking care of the veterans after the fact.

When it comes to that, the affairs of veterans, the veterans themselves should have control of it.

Yes, we served at their pleasure. Once that is done our benefits are guaranteed. and should be managed by us.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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I’ve no idea but certainly see it as something worth shining some light on. As for Congress are the Dems restricted from pursuing if the GOP aren’t on board? Serious question I dunno.

The majority sets the agenda in both Houses. Dems can propose anything they want but it won't go anywhere if the GOP won't let it. Dems might as well have this one printed on Charmin as a courtesy to their GOP companions. Maybe it'll be different after the election.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I agree with everything you say up until it comes to taking care of the veterans after the fact.

When it comes to that, the affairs of veterans, the veterans themselves should have control of it.

Yes, we served at their pleasure. Once that is done our benefits are guaranteed. and should be managed by us.

To an extent I agree but the devil is always in the details. I just don’t agree that the country signs up to give veterans whatever they want.

From my experience it’s a mixture of giving too much (the original expanded GI bill) and too little (mental health services) but that’s more a function of the country trying to help a population it doesn’t really understand.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,511
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To an extent I agree but the devil is always in the details. I just don’t agree that the country signs up to give veterans whatever they want.

From my experience it’s a mixture of giving too much (the original expanded GI bill) and too little (mental health services) but that’s more a function of the country trying to help a population it doesn’t really understand.

Exactly. Which is why it should be managed by us.

The VA system is a system solely for veterans. When non-veterans get a say, that is not equality of representation. We signed up with guaranteed benefits. Those benefits are ours and should be managed by us.

Any financial cut to those benefits should be met with a massive breach of contract suit.

I get what you mean with the Starship Troopers reference, but I only meant vet affairs. Not all of citizenship. LOL
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Exactly. Which is why it should be managed by us.

The VA system is a system solely for veterans. When non-veterans get a say, that is not equality of representation. We signed up with guaranteed benefits. Those benefits are ours and should be managed by us.

Any financial cut to those benefits should be met with a massive breach of contract suit.

I get what you mean with the Starship Troopers reference, but I only meant vet affairs. Not all of citizenship. LOL

As an extreme example what if those veterans say that they all should get $100 million a year? (To invoke my favorite book of all time, like the Sardaukar) Clearly that’s not reasonable. Everyone with a stake should have a say.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,511
16,225
146
As an extreme example what if those veterans say that they all should get $100 million a year? (To invoke my favorite book of all time, like the Sardaukar) Clearly that’s not reasonable. Everyone with a stake should have a say.

A pre-set budget should be set with the benefits promised to recruits guaranteed to never be cut.

No, not everything they want, just everything they were promised.

The disbursement of that budget should be managed and voted upon among veterans only.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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The VA system is a system solely for veterans. When non-veterans get a say, that is not equality of representation. We signed up with guaranteed benefits. Those benefits are ours and should be managed by us.
Any financial cut to those benefits should be met with a massive breach of contract suit.
Is there actual contract clause that guarantees specific VA benefits, or is it just current law, which can be changed by Congress at any time? Those are two different things.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
26,670
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By my own admission I don’t know the utilization rate of all of the various facilities they operate. To the best of my knowledge neither does anyone else in this thread. You seem to be arguing just for the sake of doing so, not because you have anything in particular to say. If you’d actually like to discuss I’m all for it but I’m not going to engage simple "you’re dumb" mudslinging.

https://www.herc.research.va.gov/include/page.asp?id=va-vs-non-va#providers

Start there

BTW I'm interested in a discussion, but your posts in this thread have frequently started with basically saying "I don't know the facts" BUT here is what should be done.

I've given you a link that contains a ton of relevant information. One nice tidbit VA drugs in one study were cheaper than even from private PBMs.

Also on the subject of sending vets to non-VA providers the system doesn't want to do that as a matter of course because it does cost more than providing the same care inside the system.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,671
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This thread has morphed into a referendum about the existence of the VA let almost everyone is ignoring the shadow government running out of Mar-a-Lago accountable to no one.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
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To Homer's point about the real subject of this thread:

Probably the most effective way to address the situation and get congress to actually get off their asses would be to get the veteran organizations involved. Absent that I doubt much will change until there is a change in who runs at least one house. The current majority seems content to make some mealy mouthed comments about things being "unfortunate" but they are willing to accept very bad behavior from this administration if it means they can pass the legislation they really care about. The GOP has sold its principles out for short term political gain.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
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This thread has morphed into a referendum about the existence of the VA let almost everyone is ignoring the shadow government running out of Mar-a-Lago accountable to no one.

A shadow government made of people who put hundreds of thousands of dollars in the president's pocket. This is something that is at least possibly impeachment worthy. It’s corruption on a scale the federal government has almost never seen.

To me the craziest thing about the last 18 months is how normalized corruption has become.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
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I’m not sure anyone is ignoring it but we just simply are all in agreement, shouldn’t happen and needs to be investigated. Beyond that I’m not sure what else can even be said?
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
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A shadow government made of people who put hundreds of thousands of dollars in the president's pocket. This is something that is at least possibly impeachment worthy. It’s corruption on a scale the federal government has almost never seen.

To me the craziest thing about the last 18 months is how normalized corruption has become.

That is something interesting. Something I've been talking a lot about recently. Things that would have been basically unimaginable just two years ago are not only happening regularly but a large portion of America is defending. It surprised me that we just gave up on the ideals of our government and how low our standards have gone. I am in awe at the power of the propaganda that the right has used to make this acceptable, and it leaves me wondering how we fight it without losing the freedoms we cherish in the process. I can see no way to fight this monster with out becoming one ourselves.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
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That is something interesting. Something I've been talking a lot about recently. Things that would have been basically unimaginable just two years ago are not only happening regularly but a large portion of America is defending. It surprised me that we just gave up on the ideals of our government and how low our standards have gone. I am in awe at the power of the propaganda that the right has used to make this acceptable, and it leaves me wondering how we fight it without losing the freedoms we cherish in the process. I can see no way to fight this monster with out becoming one ourselves.

I get the idea that if we sink to their level then there’s a risk that even if we win we have only done so at the cost of destroying what we were trying to save.

To me though there’s no turning back. If we keep playing by the old rules where liberals care about the country and conservatives don’t it is already over. I mean just look at the last ten years - when conservatives won an election they didn’t just make conservative policies, they actively rigged the system so that they couldn’t lose power. In North Carolina when they lost anyway they didn’t accept it, they tried to strip the powers of the governorship they lost. When they thought Clinton was going to win the presidency they were actively floating the idea of a permanent blockade on SCOTUS nominees in perpetuity.

There’s only one answer and that’s to play by their rules. We have to make it so painful for them to defy the norms of government that their incentive to abide by them is greater than the incentive to violate them. That means packing the Supreme Court, abolishing the filibuster, etc, etc.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
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The VA operates many, many facilities throughout the US. There certainly are long wait times at some, but I have no idea the utilization rate of the system as a whole. In a private marketplace with the VA just serving as an insurance fund the veteran can choose between multiple healthcare providers and the marketplace will take care of wait times by itself. The savings would be had by not having to own and operate an elaborate healthcare system, leave that to the various private providers out there where competition is allowed to flourish. The VA wouldn't have doctors on staff they have to pay etc. Yes, doctors still get paid, and yes the healthcare system will have to beef up staff to accommodate, but ultimately it would be shared cost with the rest of the community that uses that facility. Opening up lots of options and not separate staff and facilities drives savings, there's no way it doesn't.

Well I speak from personal experience. I was working the 1992 Los Angeles riots, as an Orange County Deputy Sheriff, when I caught a knife through the wrist, severing two of my tendons for my fingers. I asked to be taken to the VA hospital in San Bernardino California. Just my luck that one of the top five hand men in the country, just happened to be having a cup of coffee with his nephew who was also a doctor, when I was wheeled into the ER. He is the reason I have 98% full functionality of my right hand today.

My father, a retired U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen., just had his second knee replacement surgery, at the VA hospital located at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio Texas.

In both cases, no paperwork, no "co-pays", no premiums, just awesome service. I wouldn't let a civilian doctor touch me with a gun to my head.

And all it cost me, was seven years of my life as a Marine, and I even got free flight school on top of all that.

Leave the VA alone, it does an awesome job for those who need it.