Mar-A-Lago members virtually running the VA

[hal2kilo]

Thread derailment is UG's reason for living. He got right on top of this topic at post #2.

I usually ignore his conservative talking points driven posts. Is this a pattern?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The discussion completely ignores the problems of some "for-profit" insurance coverage to replace the VA. I'm not even going to pound away in my usual prolix fashion for this post. What was the problem that the ACA attempted to address? Veterans' injuries are not just "pre-existing conditions." Do you think that some health insurer is going to provide insurance against appallingly abnormal injuries and battle hazards? If you owned a home on Key Largo after the pattern of storms for several years had been established, what sort of homeowners' insurance are you going to get, and how much are you going to pay for it?

This free-market myth in its dogmatic application by the Right and others naïve enough to misunderstand its flaws in specific situations will contribute to a disintegration of institutions and ideas that have worked for the good part of a century, despite the scheduling problems, waiting-periods, or other aspects appearing in the news.

And don't lecture me about "free market" economics. If you want a 20 minute lecture on "kinked oligopoly demand" or "long-run market equilibrium," I'll give it because I CAN give it. Y'all been reading too many Ayn Rand novels. Oh! That's the one who was nearly broke when diagnosed with lung cancer, and she felt SOOOO a-SHAMED that she was able to take advantage of her husband's Social Security and the newly created Medicare program.

Dummies. We've gone from "Great Again" in late 2016 to "Lower than Crocodile Piss," and it's because of an appalling collective lack of common sense or just historical understanding.

 

[trenchfoot]

Apparently they are just going to ignore the OPs subject which is the corruption of the federal government.

The strategy being employed here is like if the other guy is twice as big (with facts) and twice as fast (with reasoned irrefutable responses) you gotta do lot of feints, bobbing and weaving, fast backpedaling and running around the ring thus forcing the bigger guy to wiff his haymakers (factual evidence) at you until you tire the guy out from throwing too many punches (factual evidence) and then you step out of the ring claiming a win when the fight is still going on.

 

[interchange]

The VA is a mixed bag, but by and large it is more efficient at healthcare delivery as is generally the case for public healthcare systems. But in areas where there is high access to care, the beurocracy does slow things down, and access to certain treatments may be limited. However, that doesn't generally equal better outcomes. The VA does have greater availability of many services and does a ton of case management, in house disability assessment, the best substance abuse and housing care around, the best trauma-focused treatment, etc. But a lot of that is relative comparison. There is plenty in each of those things that can be improved especially with availability, but the imagination that vets are going to get better treatment elsewhere is often not true, although in some cases they could get faster treatment.

Beyond that, the VA and military truly are institutions. They have a certain personality and a certain kind of person who utilizes their services and a certain culture with provision of care. In the best case, it enables peers who share a common experience to help a person succeed who would not appropriately engage elsewhere. In the worst cases, there is frank abuse of the system, beurocratic nonsense getting in the way of care, and a shared attitude of being slighted.

Privatizing things would make them change. I think on the whole for the worse, but also we'd hear about it a lot less and understand the deficiencies a lot less as well. If everything is covered by the same entity, it's easy to point the finger at it when at least the perception of something wrong exists.

 

[interchange]

There are lots of ways to explain how a free market system might not actually produce the lowest cost for goods/services, but I think even looking at healthcare through that lens is heavily flawed. Consumers don't utilize healthcare as a luxury, neither are they in a good position to know what evaluations and treatments are in the best interest of their health. Neither is each decision to utilize healthcare independent of prior or future healthcare choices. Thus, value of a health system (health outcome / cost) is much more driven by more efficient utilization than it is by lowering cost for each intervention. It is theoretically possible to have a healthcare system that offers the cheapest and most available care that collectively has the unhealthiest people spending the most money on their health. Although some people who would benefit from health services that get delayed or not available under socialized medical systems, on aggregate outcomes are just as good and cost is much less, and that is not really because their drugs, MRIs, etc. are cheaper but more because they are more efficiently allocated and streamlined with shared access to records, etc. What people who highlight cases of harm due to lack of access in public health systems fail to account for are people who are harmed not just financially but in health outcome by utilizing care which isn't actually in their interest or gaps in communicating care needs.

 

[K1052]

Congrats to Ugly on a spectacularly successful thread derailment. I’m going to give your post a like for its simplicity and success.

OP: you might as well start another thread about the corruption discussed in your OP as this thread is toast.

I suppose the good (bad?) news is that this admin isn't short on shady activities and nearly comical kinds of naked corruption.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Congrats to Ugly on a spectacularly successful thread derailment. I’m going to give your post a like for its simplicity and success.

OP: you might as well start another thread about the corruption discussed in your OP as this thread is toast.

Geeze fuckin cry about it, offer up some comments other than whining about a conversation somebody is having. I said that’s fricked up about the undue influence and my opinion that VA should just be an insurance fund. He said no I’m wrong because... so I responded. So did fskimospy derail the thread? He sure has been offering up a lot of comments on it.

 

[fskimospy]

Geeze fuckin cry about it, offer up some comments other than whining about a conversation somebody is having. I said that’s fricked up about the undue influence and my opinion that VA should just be an insurance fund. He said no I’m wrong because... so I responded. So did fskimospy derail the thread? He sure has been offering up a lot of comments on it.

What actions do you think Congress or law enforcement should take in response to this finding?

 

[Homerboy]

Does it also bother you that Steven fucking Bannon gets a fat royalty check every time an episode of Seinfeld airs in syndication? (Neither JLD or Jason Alexander, or Michael Richards get paid for syndicated episodes)

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudge

 

[UglyCasanova]

What actions do you think Congress or law enforcement should take in response to this finding?

Not sure I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know specifically what laws were broken. I’d think at a min Congress could demand head if VA be summoned to come and explain what the heck is going on and why. If laws are broke then proceed accordingly. If no laws broke but ethical standards not met then I’d imagine there’s some people at the VA that will be out of work.

 

[trenchfoot]

Heh, here we have Trump trumpeting his call to drain the swamp in DC when he has an exclusive corruptive critter riddled swamp of his own right there at Mar A Lago.

Trump supporters, shouldn't Trump drain that personally owned and operated swamp of his in order to keep his errrrr.... "promise" to you? Aren't you absolutely livid about how traitorous Trump is that he would stab you in the back like this? Aren't you guys going to do something about this, this hyper-hypocritical act done right in front of your faces or is it only a problem if a Dem president pulled this kind of corruptive bullshit?

We await your response as to how to go about forcing Trump to keep his promise to you that he "WILL drain the swamp!!!" Well, except the one he set up at Mar A Lago? Is that it? Mar A Lago is a whole 'nother thing then. It's just a bunch of business folks exchanging ideas of how to MAGA? lol

 

[fskimospy]

Not sure I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know specifically what laws were broken. I’d think at a min Congress could demand head if VA be summoned to come and explain what the heck is going on and why. If laws are broke then proceed accordingly. If no laws broke but ethical standards not met then I’d imagine there’s some people at the VA that will be out of work.

Do you think we should open an investigation into Trump? After all we know that we have at least three people who directly give Trump large cash payments on an annual basis (at a minimum) who are apparently using that access to drive government policy. That sounds like bribery to me.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Congrats to Ugly on a spectacularly successful thread derailment. I’m going to give your post a like for its simplicity and success.

OP: you might as well start another thread about the corruption discussed in your OP as this thread is toast.

To be fair I think that we are discussing other things here because everyone pretty much agrees with the primary post that naked corruption is bad and should be dealt with harshly. What more is there to say? 50 posts of 'Yup'?

The question of what to do with the VA long term is a more interested question, and this could very easily be seen as a reason to start changing the VA in general.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The flip question is why does it need to exist? Vets can be offered good healthcare without having to have their own hospital system.

Historically, they have been ignored, disenfranchised and, left to deal with medical issues the healthcare system didn't know or care about.

 

[hal2kilo]

To be fair I think that we are discussing other things here because everyone pretty much agrees with the primary post that naked corruption is bad and should be dealt with harshly. What more is there to say? 50 posts of 'Yup'?

The question of what to do with the VA long term is a more interested question, and this could very easily be seen as a reason to start changing the VA in general.

Then create a post thread about that.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Why does the VA need to be shut down specifically?

?

Because it's run by Trump. Maybe get someone else to run it?

 

[Jhhnn]

Not sure I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know specifically what laws were broken. I’d think at a min Congress could demand head if VA be summoned to come and explain what the heck is going on and why. If laws are broke then proceed accordingly. If no laws broke but ethical standards not met then I’d imagine there’s some people at the VA that will be out of work.

Trump & his Mar-a-Lago friends have a line of corrupt bastards waiting to take over for any scapegoats that are found. WTF do these guys know about the VA or healthcare admin in general? Damned little, other than they want to figure out how to make money off it.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Then create a post about that.

I think I just did?

 

[Viper1j]

Thanks will read later. VA needs to be shut down. Offer insurance to the vets and call it a day.

Spoken like someone that's never held a rifle , or worn a uniform.

 

[brycejones]

Thanks will read later. VA needs to be shut down. Offer insurance to the vets and call it a day.

Once again ugly goat boy enters a thread from a position of complete ignorance and suggests a solution.

 

[fskimospy]

Once again ugly goat boy enters a thread from a position of complete ignorance and suggests a solution.

But if you offer insurance instead of direct care you don’t have to pay all those fixed costs like hospitals and doctor salaries.

Galaxy brain: all health care in the US switches to insurance only, that way nobody has to pay for doctors or hospital upkeep. THINK OF THE SAVINGS.

 

[UglyCasanova]

But if you offer insurance instead of direct care you don’t have to pay all those fixed costs like hospitals and doctor salaries.

Galaxy brain: all health care in the US switches to insurance only, that way nobody has to pay for doctors or hospital upkeep. THINK OF THE SAVINGS.

No, the cost are bourne by a larger pool of people. So yeah, savings.

 

[fskimospy]

No, the cost are bourne by a larger pool of people. So yeah, savings.

This continues to make absolutely no sense.

First, the VA is the nation’s largest health system. If there are economies of scale the VA should be best positioned to take advantage of them.

Second, as already explained unless the VA has significant amounts of underutilized capacity the idea that the overhead costs would be shared by more people is illogical. If a doctor is seeing a full load of patients every day then it is logically impossible to lower his overhead costs any further by sharing his cost among more people. Considering the primary complaint against the VA is long wait times odds are good you would be pushing people into lower utilization systems, meaning increased costs.

Maybe it would help clarify things if you can provide a logical A -> B where you think the overhead costs would be carried by more people. I think if you do that, keeping capacity constraints in mind, you will see why that’s wrong.

 

[UglyCasanova]

The VA operates many, many facilities throughout the US. There certainly are long wait times at some, but I have no idea the utilization rate of the system as a whole. In a private marketplace with the VA just serving as an insurance fund the veteran can choose between multiple healthcare providers and the marketplace will take care of wait times by itself. The savings would be had by not having to own and operate an elaborate healthcare system, leave that to the various private providers out there where competition is allowed to flourish. The VA wouldn't have doctors on staff they have to pay etc. Yes, doctors still get paid, and yes the healthcare system will have to beef up staff to accommodate, but ultimately it would be shared cost with the rest of the community that uses that facility. Opening up lots of options and not separate staff and facilities drives savings, there's no way it doesn't.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Then create a post thread about that.

Why? It seems like good discussion is being had. I've looked through your post in this thread and there are five or six of them, but not a single one actually addresses the topic of the OP. You've posted several times but offered none of your own opinions. Why are you so concerned about our conversations when you aren't willing to engage in one yourself?