Mandatory 2 Year Military Service after HS?

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Chunkee
Think we should have mandatory military service for 2 years after school?

Why not just ask, think we should declare individuals to be the property of the state? Should we declare that American citizens are slaves, owned by the government? Would that be a good idea?

Maybe we should just declare the state to be supreme and the individual to be the property of the state, then repudiate the nation's founding principles of individual rights and go on to become a full-blown communist nation. Good idea?

That's what this really is about, in principle.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why should anybody join voluntarily unless their finicial situation forces them to?

IMO, we don't have a large enough military presense to do what needs to be done and to do it right, so I'd say a draft is in order.

I would go one step farther and say we should pay those we already have in the military better in an effort to keep them and their training working to keep us safe.

"We have to enslave people because we need them!"

The reason no one wants to join the U.S. military anymore is because our servicemen are being forced to fight conflicts that have questionable value and questionable rational selfish interest and our servicemen are treated like garbage. Do they have good pay? No, not even decent pay. Are veterans receiving good benefits? No. Do they have proper armor? No. Does the government even care about the common soldiery? No; their individual lives are disposable.

If people don't want to join the military for all of those reasons, then I say good. Screw the Bush Administration and the government that mistreats our members of the armed forces.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
It's an interesting idea, no doubt, but flies in the very face of our freedoms.

Starship Troopers is actually a very interesting book, as it actually explores this notion a great deal more than the fun, yet intellectually void, movie of the same title.

It is an interesting notion--serve in the military and get American citizenship. However, it does hae its perils. Can you imagine an all Mexican military? Would it really be good if foreigners controlled the military and thus had the real power? Having a small percentage of the military being composed of foreigners would be OK, but I'd be concerned about having a large percentage.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Todd33
I voted no, it should be 1 year of national service and the military should be one of the options (not that the individual can choose, rich people in Iraq ftw!).

I'm opposed to forced servitude, too. Why are people so willing to give their lives or the lives of other citizens over to the government? Why are people so willing to subject themselves to slavery? Anyone who feels we need more public service should shut up and go do public service themselves rather than advocate the enslavement of other citizens for their altruistic purposes.

 

[sdgserv]

It is only two years. The skills learned and discipline, not to mention the extensive military reserve you would have available. Skilled and trained

I agree. A few years ago I would have said no, the world has changed and is more dangerous. We need everybody.

When you exit HS and are not going to college or a Trade, there exists what I call "The Dead Zone" this where young men take a giant step sideways. No forward movement or growth. No sense of purpose. Those that have it are miles ahead of the rest who just "Party" Serving your country in some capacity will give a sense of purpose that lasts a lifetime.

There are those that are just flat out against service to this country. Their choice, it would be interesting to know why..

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Finland = Badasses!

You guys want some fun inspireing reading? Check out Finlands Winter War and the Continuation War and see what I'm talking about.

Its good to know that some know something of our history and what my grandparents did .

A bit of history: Those wars might have even decided the outcome of WWII. Hitler might not have attacked the Soviet Union and the russians might not have learned the valuable lessons that they did.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: CitizenKain
If people want to join the military or peace corps, we already have those available for those who wish to join. Forcing people to join something they don't want to wouldn't accomplish anything. What do you do with someone who is forced into joining Peace Corps and they don't show up for the job, do you fire them and they continue on with their lives? Or do you throw them in prison, which accomplishes even less then someone clearing a trail?

Exactly. They're there if people want to get into them... forcing people is so anti-American, frankly I'm surprised at the amount of support the idea gets.

I really hate this one-size-fits-all mentality that's so prevailant. It's like a perverse egalitarianism where every is supposed to be sqeezed into the same mold, no matter their shape. It's alarming that some people are so quick to impose their own values onto everyone else in the form of coerced service... which is one step above slavery.

Let's face it, once you've subscribed to the idea that your life isn't really YOURS, but rather the "society's" (to use it as they see fit) we might as well burn the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. Such an idea is more akin to a Nazi Germany, not a nation based freedom. Where is our principle of individualism these days?

Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
It's an interesting idea, no doubt, but flies in the very face of our freedoms.

Starship Troopers is actually a very interesting book, as it actually explores this notion a great deal more than the fun, yet intellectually void, movie of the same title.

It is an interesting notion--serve in the military and get American citizenship. However, it does hae its perils. Can you imagine an all Mexican military? Would it really be good if foreigners controlled the military and thus had the real power? Having a small percentage of the military being composed of foreigners would be OK, but I'd be concerned about having a large percentage.

The government proposed by Heinlein in Starship Troopers was a global federal government. There no longer were any national boundaries. The main character, Johnny Rico, for example, was a Filipino.

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

There is nothing patriotic about mandatory military service. It is just slavery. And it violates the basic constitutional right to life. A person's life stops being his own and becomes the property of the state. Those "poor people from Flint and Oakland" volunteered. I understand that some people have difficulty differentiating between choice and coercion, but there really is a difference. Don't let your partisan spite fool you into creating a more grevious loss of freedoms to America than anything the infamous GW has ever done.

 

[yllus]

According to G. Norman Schwarzkopf (or in any case his autobio), the military was relieved after Vietnam when it was able to filter the mostly unwilling draftees out of uniform. They just don't bring the right mindset into the situation.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

Too bad your opinions carry absolutely no weight around here, after this little gem:

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Yes. The marines in Iraq are murderers. I have no sympathy for them.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

Too bad your opinions carry absolutely no weight around here, after this little gem:

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Yes. The marines in Iraq are murderers. I have no sympathy for them.

Hmm... clearly he cares a great deal about those "poor people from Flint and Oakland."

:roll:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: yllus
According to G. Norman Schwarzkopf (or in any case his autobio), the military was relieved after Vietnam when it was able to filter the mostly unwilling draftees out of uniform. They just don't bring the right mindset into the situation.

Actually, this is true. Enlistees don't want to fight alongside draftees. The difference in mindset is supposedly one of life and death. The book "Band of Brothers" goes into this in some detail, as all the soldiers involved were enlistees who purposely volunteered for the Airborne, knowing how dangerous it would be, simply because they did not want to fight alongside draftees.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: CitizenKain
If people want to join the military or peace corps, we already have those available for those who wish to join. Forcing people to join something they don't want to wouldn't accomplish anything. What do you do with someone who is forced into joining Peace Corps and they don't show up for the job, do you fire them and they continue on with their lives? Or do you throw them in prison, which accomplishes even less then someone clearing a trail?

Exactly. They're there if people want to get into them... forcing people is so anti-American, frankly I'm surprised at the amount of support the idea gets.

I really hate this one-size-fits-all mentality that's so prevailant. It's like a perverse egalitarianism where every is supposed to be sqeezed into the same mold, no matter their shape. It's alarming that some people are so quick to impose their own values onto everyone else in the form of coerced service... which is one step above slavery.

Let's face it, once you've subscribed to the idea that your life isn't really YOURS, but rather the "society's" (to use it as they see fit) we might as well burn the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. Such an idea is more akin to a Nazi Germany, not a nation based freedom. Where is our principle of individualism these days?

Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

Coerced service is not patriotic. Forcing someone to give up years of their life because YOU feel it's patriotic is wrong, plain and simple. Your pragmatic argument (the ends justify the means) are gross. Suspending the Bill of Rights would help greatly with crime, yet we sure don't want to do that. There comes a time when you have to stand on principle... mandatory service is definately one of those times.

This post wouldn't be complete with some gratuitious insults. Besides coming off like a rich, spoiled brat who knows nothing about how poor I have been, you really are talking out your @ss considering I have served in the military and am going back in pretty soon as an officer.

Once again you've proven yourself to be ignorant. Congrats.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Exactly. They're there if people want to get into them... forcing people is so anti-American, frankly I'm surprised at the amount of support the idea gets.

I really hate this one-size-fits-all mentality that's so prevailant. It's like a perverse egalitarianism where every is supposed to be sqeezed into the same mold, no matter their shape. It's alarming that some people are so quick to impose their own values onto everyone else in the form of coerced service... which is one step above slavery.

Let's face it, once you've subscribed to the idea that your life isn't really YOURS, but rather the "society's" (to use it as they see fit) we might as well burn the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. Such an idea is more akin to a Nazi Germany, not a nation based freedom. Where is our principle of individualism these days?

Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

Coerced service is not patriotic. Forcing someone to give up years of their life because YOU feel it's patriotic is wrong, plain and simple. Your pragmatic argument (the ends justify the means) are gross. Suspending the Bill of Rights would help greatly with crime, yet we sure don't want to do that. There comes a time when you have to stand on principle... mandatory service is definately one of those times.

This post wouldn't be complete with some gratuitious insults. Besides coming off like a rich, spoiled brat who knows nothing about how poor I have been, you really are talking out your @ss considering I have served in the military and am going back in pretty soon as an officer.

Once again you've proven yourself to be ignorant. Congrats.

Come on, you call those insults? You should take the Darkhawk28 and BBond route and call him a "pussy", or maybe an "impudent, lying, failure excusing jerk off." Apparently, anything goes around here now-a-days!

Get on the bandwagon, cwjerome, you "vile, crude, ignorant waste of human life".

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: CitizenKain
If people want to join the military or peace corps, we already have those available for those who wish to join. Forcing people to join something they don't want to wouldn't accomplish anything. What do you do with someone who is forced into joining Peace Corps and they don't show up for the job, do you fire them and they continue on with their lives? Or do you throw them in prison, which accomplishes even less then someone clearing a trail?

Exactly. They're there if people want to get into them... forcing people is so anti-American, frankly I'm surprised at the amount of support the idea gets.

I really hate this one-size-fits-all mentality that's so prevailant. It's like a perverse egalitarianism where every is supposed to be sqeezed into the same mold, no matter their shape. It's alarming that some people are so quick to impose their own values onto everyone else in the form of coerced service... which is one step above slavery.

Let's face it, once you've subscribed to the idea that your life isn't really YOURS, but rather the "society's" (to use it as they see fit) we might as well burn the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. Such an idea is more akin to a Nazi Germany, not a nation based freedom. Where is our principle of individualism these days?

Funny that all the right wing war mongers are the ones opposed to this patriotic service. Mandatory military service would only help. It would only make you better as a person and would make the US a better place. People like CWjerome would rather sit around all day on a computer and have poor people from Flint and Oakland die in Iraq and cheer them on. These people don't care about the country. In fact, people like him are RUINING our country.

Coerced service is not patriotic. Forcing someone to give up years of their life because YOU feel it's patriotic is wrong, plain and simple. Your pragmatic argument (the ends justify the means) are gross. Suspending the Bill of Rights would help greatly with crime, yet we sure don't want to do that. There comes a time when you have to stand on principle... mandatory service is definately one of those times.

This post wouldn't be complete with some gratuitious insults. Besides coming off like a rich, spoiled brat who knows nothing about how poor I have been, you really are talking out your @ss considering I have served in the military and am going back in pretty soon as an officer.

Once again you've proven yourself to be ignorant. Congrats.

If we can't get enough volunteers to do the job, then get ready for a draft or mandatory service of some type. Just because it "isn't fair" won't stop the goverment.

Is it fair to extend the duty and commitment of the soilders we currently have because they can't get enough volunteers??

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Come on, you call those insults? You should take the Darkhawk28 and BBond route and call him a "pussy", or maybe an "impudent, lying, failure excusing jerk off." Apparently, anything goes around here now-a-days!

Get on the bandwagon, cwjerome, you "vile, crude, ignorant waste of human life".

Hah!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
If we can't get enough volunteers to do the job, then get ready for a draft or mandatory service of some type. Just because it "isn't fair" won't stop the goverment.

Is it fair to extend the duty and commitment of the soilders we currently have because they can't get enough volunteers??

Yes. The best way to check an overly aggressive government in a democracy is to force it to deal with a shortage of volunteers.

 

[PrinceofWands]

'Military' service, no. Civil service, yes. You can't force people to participate in military actions...it violates many personal beliefs and rights. You can, however, require people to earn their citizenship rights through some form of service to their country and people.

 

[chcarnage]

How different the military systems of the US and Switzerland are.

In Switzerland military service is basically mandatory (I relativated this statement in my last post though).

But military personel isn't forced to operate on foreign soil. I'm not sure if there's even a possibility for duty abroad for common soldiers, because you must be at least Corporal to join the Kosovo peace mission. The full-time personel is an exception, the military strongly advises them to serve abroad.

In the US military service is voluntary but once you've joined, it seems you've little to say where and how long you serve?

It's unlikely that a militia army attacks its own people, but a side effect may be that the military also questions controversial missions in foreign countries.

I don't know if Switzerland's model could fit the US' needs. At least it worked for Switzerland so far.

Edit:

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
'Military' service, no. Civil service, yes. You can't force people to participate in military actions...it violates many personal beliefs and rights. You can, however, require people to earn their citizenship rights through some form of service to their country and people.

Since 1996 you can chose Civil service in Switzerland, too, but the catch is you must serve 1,5 times longer (may be lowered to 1,3).

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
If we can't get enough volunteers to do the job, then get ready for a draft or mandatory service of some type. Just because it "isn't fair" won't stop the goverment.

Is it fair to extend the duty and commitment of the soilders we currently have because they can't get enough volunteers??

Yes. The best way to check an overly aggressive government in a democracy is to force it to deal with a shortage of volunteers.

Yeah, and to heck with the poor SOB's who got caught of the short end of the stick. If only it were that simple.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: chcarnage
How different the military systems of the US and Switzerland are.

In Switzerland military service is basically mandatory (I relativated this statement in my last post though).

But military personel isn't forced to operate on foreign soil. I'm not sure if there's even a possibility for duty abroad for common soldiers, because you must be at least Corporal to join the Kosovo peace mission. The full-time personel is an exception, the military strongly advises them to serve abroad.

In the US military service is voluntary but once you've joined, it seems you've little to say where and how long you serve?

It's unlikely that a militia army attacks its own people, but a side effect may be that the military also questions controversial missions in foreign countries.

I don't know if Switzerland's model could fit the US' needs. At least it worked for Switzerland so far.

Edit:

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
'Military' service, no. Civil service, yes. You can't force people to participate in military actions...it violates many personal beliefs and rights. You can, however, require people to earn their citizenship rights through some form of service to their country and people.

Since 1996 you can chose Civil service in Switzerland, too, but the catch is you must serve 1,5 times longer (may be lowered to 1,3).

In America if you're a male you must register with selective service. That doesn't put you in an army but it makes you eligible for a draft should one occur. If you choose not to register you are prohibited from anything...no voting, no licenses, no government money or jobs, etc. While I'm for a simliar system, it's ultimately sexist that only males must register, and my previous point that it can't be just military or military support services.

Once enlisted in the US military you have no actual say of where you go, when or why. You can request particular duty stations, but it's not up to you if you get them.

I don't see any need to extend service length for non-military...service to your people is service to your people. To me it seems to punish people who are mature enough to solve their differences without fighting. *shrug*

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
If we can't get enough volunteers to do the job, then get ready for a draft or mandatory service of some type. Just because it "isn't fair" won't stop the goverment.

Is it fair to extend the duty and commitment of the soilders we currently have because they can't get enough volunteers??

Yes. The best way to check an overly aggressive government in a democracy is to force it to deal with a shortage of volunteers.

Yeah, and to heck with the poor SOB's who got caught of the short end of the stick. If only it were that simple.

It is that simple. Were the draft allowed, the government could get away with most any military abuse it felt like, simply by drafting more cannon fodder.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
If we can't get enough volunteers to do the job, then get ready for a draft or mandatory service of some type. Just because it "isn't fair" won't stop the goverment.

Is it fair to extend the duty and commitment of the soilders we currently have because they can't get enough volunteers??

Yes. The best way to check an overly aggressive government in a democracy is to force it to deal with a shortage of volunteers.

Yeah, and to heck with the poor SOB's who got caught of the short end of the stick. If only it were that simple.

It is that simple. Were the draft allowed, the government could get away with most any military abuse it felt like, simply by drafting more cannon fodder.

I still see it happening in 10-20 years when we fight China.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
If we can't get enough volunteers to do the job, then get ready for a draft or mandatory service of some type. Just because it "isn't fair" won't stop the goverment.

Is it fair to extend the duty and commitment of the soilders we currently have because they can't get enough volunteers??

Yes. The best way to check an overly aggressive government in a democracy is to force it to deal with a shortage of volunteers.

Yeah, and to heck with the poor SOB's who got caught of the short end of the stick. If only it were that simple.

It is that simple. Were the draft allowed, the government could get away with most any military abuse it felt like, simply by drafting more cannon fodder.

You make a good point, but we still have the Iraqi war to finish and nobody seems to want to fight it. We can't keep the same troops over there indefintely.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I would prefer mandatory public service; Peace Corps, US Military, or Coast Guard. And for the record, I really mean Peace Corps not that PR campaign called the Freedom Corps.