Mandatory 2 Year Military Service after HS?

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cwjerome


The old hippies must be confused at the "New Left" and their general support for a draft.

The "old hippies" had a draft and they told the goverment to go to hell, burned their draft cards and split. Not because they believed it was their "right" not to have to serve, but because they didn't believe in the Vietnam War.

You on the other hand are quite comfortqble fighting a war (just or unjust) as long as you know you or yours won't be "inconvienced" by it. Your just another hypocritical Chickenhawk NeoCon who's still wet behiond the ears but thinks he knows everything.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The old hippies must be confused at the "New Left" and their general support for a draft.

The "old hippies" had a draft and they told the goverment to go to hell, burned their draft cards and split. Not because they believed it was their "right" not to have to serve, but because they didn't believe in the Vietnam War.

So what are you saying? The Draft is a good idea, but when there's a "bad" Draft it's ok to dodge it? You think it's good idea to send people off to fight in something they despise? Are you saying that having the government as the ultimate arbitrator of a man's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness is a good idea simply because YOU want to "get back" at rich people or something? You're a sick, bitter person, who simply wants a draft so that social unrest prevails and you can use it as political capital against your hated president.

You on the other hand are quite comfortqble fighting a war (just or unjust) as long as you know you or yours won't be "inconvienced" by it. Your just another hypocritical Chickenhawk NeoCon who's still wet behiond the ears but thinks he knows everything.

You really ought to STFU about this continued line of incredible ignorance. Not only has this immature reasoning been squashed by logic on P&N countless times, you also have zero information about my friend's and family's relation to the military, our level of inconvenience, and my personal record of service. You really have no idea what an idiot you look like to those that do have such knowledge.

It's extremely arrogant and patronizing for you -an old man whose only likely contact with the armed services is what he sees on CNN and the latest Leftwing rag- to lecture me and mine about military service. You might as well start lecturing Steve Nash about the proper way to pass a basketball, you dumb@ss.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The old hippies must be confused at the "New Left" and their general support for a draft.

The "old hippies" had a draft and they told the goverment to go to hell, burned their draft cards and split. Not because they believed it was their "right" not to have to serve, but because they didn't believe in the Vietnam War.

So what are you saying? The Draft is a good idea, but when there's a "bad" Draft it's ok to dodge it? You think it's good idea to send people off to fight in something they despise? Are you saying that having the government as the ultimate arbitrator of a man's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness is a good idea simply because YOU want to "get back" at rich people or something? You're a sick, bitter person, who simply wants a draft so that social unrest prevails and you can use it as political capital against your hated president.

You on the other hand are quite comfortqble fighting a war (just or unjust) as long as you know you or yours won't be "inconvienced" by it. Your just another hypocritical Chickenhawk NeoCon who's still wet behiond the ears but thinks he knows everything.

You really ought to STFU about this continued line of incredible ignorance. Not only has this immature reasoning been squashed by logic on P&N countless times, you also have zero information about my friend's and family's relation to the military, our level of inconvenience, and my personal record of service. You really have no idea what an idiot you look like to those that do have such knowledge.

It's extremely arrogant and patronizing for you -an old man whose only likely contact with the armed services is what he sees on CNN and the latest Leftwing rag- to lecture me and mine about military service. You might as well start lecturing Steve Nash about the proper way to pass a basketball, you dumb@ss.

Oh please, your hurting my feelings chcikenhawk.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Oh please, your hurting my feelings chcikenhawk.

Heh, you're too damn stupid to know better.

So why not address real arguments instead of acting like you know me and getting personal? No where to go without your fictitious appraisal of my life?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Oh please, your hurting my feelings chcikenhawk.

Heh, you're too damn stupid to know better.

So why not address real arguments instead of acting like you know me and getting personal? No where to go without your fictitious appraisal of my life?

People dying is as real as you can get chickenhawk. You can lie all you want about what your doing if it makes you feel better or you think it makes your "online image" look better. We all know how concerned NeoCons are about image. It's the worst kind of scoundrel who hides behind the flag.

 

[cwjerome]

dp

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Oh please, your hurting my feelings chcikenhawk.

Heh, you're too damn stupid to know better.

So why not address real arguments instead of acting like you know me and getting personal? No where to go without your fictitious appraisal of my life?

People dying is as real as you can get chickenhawk. You can lie all you want about what your doing if it makes you feel better or you think it makes your "online image" look better. We all know how concerned NeoCons are about image. It's the worst kind of scoundrel who hides behind the flag.

Nowhere to go without your fictitious appraisel of my life?

 

[marvdmartian]

Sorry, I'm not going to vote in your poll, since I think the choices you gave aren't worth answering with, but I will give you my opinion.

As one of those that have served in uniform, back in the old days when judges with juvenile delinquents would oftentimes give the choice of "3 years military or 3 years jail", I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people that are not now, nor will ever be, suitable for military service. Contrary to those that believe that people that join the military aren't very intelligent (okay, there are some lunkheads, but I was operating nuclear power plants in the navy, and believe me when I tell you that they don't hire dummies to do that job!!), or are "war-mongers", "haters" or whatever other petty little label they want to use for people in the military, there are certain qualities that make a person a better soldier, sailor, marine or airman than others would be.

Mostly, it's not just a love of country (usually quite strong in those that serve), but the belief that they can make a difference, and the longing to do so. Back in the Carter and early Reagan eras of the military, the volunteer military almost ceased to exist, and you had people that came in primarily for educational benefits and careers. Nowadays it's not much different, but you are seeing a higher percentage of people who are doing this for their love of country, rather than the 100% tuition coverage (although they do take advantage of it......one air force tech sergeant [e-6] that I work with has his bachelor's degree, almost has his master's, and will likely earn his doctorate soon after he retires).

But to ask military service of every person would be to make the military worse than it's ever been. Okay, in times of great need (like a world war), you might need to institute the draft, but I don't see the need for that at this time. Even with the media giving daily reports on all the negative aspects of Iraq, you still have people willing to go into the military. Certainly not in the numbers prior to the Iraq invasion, but nevertheless in numbers higher than I expected with all the bad press the situation in Iraq gets on a daily basis. However, the single biggest thing that you're taught in basic training is how to rely on your buddies, and make certain that they can rely on you. Teamwork, in other words. And there's just some people in this country that couldn't manage that to save their lives, and likely would cost us lives if they were to serve in battle.

So to answer the question should there be mandatory military service, my answer is NO. The cost would be too high, in lives moreso than money.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian
Sorry, I'm not going to vote in your poll, since I think the choices you gave aren't worth answering with, but I will give you my opinion.

As one of those that have served in uniform, back in the old days when judges with juvenile delinquents would oftentimes give the choice of "3 years military or 3 years jail", I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people that are not now, nor will ever be, suitable for military service. Contrary to those that believe that people that join the military aren't very intelligent (okay, there are some lunkheads, but I was operating nuclear power plants in the navy, and believe me when I tell you that they don't hire dummies to do that job!!), or are "war-mongers", "haters" or whatever other petty little label they want to use for people in the military, there are certain qualities that make a person a better soldier, sailor, marine or airman than others would be.

Mostly, it's not just a love of country (usually quite strong in those that serve), but the belief that they can make a difference, and the longing to do so. Back in the Carter and early Reagan eras of the military, the volunteer military almost ceased to exist, and you had people that came in primarily for educational benefits and careers. Nowadays it's not much different, but you are seeing a higher percentage of people who are doing this for their love of country, rather than the 100% tuition coverage (although they do take advantage of it......one air force tech sergeant [e-6] that I work with has his bachelor's degree, almost has his master's, and will likely earn his doctorate soon after he retires).

But to ask military service of every person would be to make the military worse than it's ever been. Okay, in times of great need (like a world war), you might need to institute the draft, but I don't see the need for that at this time. Even with the media giving daily reports on all the negative aspects of Iraq, you still have people willing to go into the military. Certainly not in the numbers prior to the Iraq invasion, but nevertheless in numbers higher than I expected with all the bad press the situation in Iraq gets on a daily basis. However, the single biggest thing that you're taught in basic training is how to rely on your buddies, and make certain that they can rely on you. Teamwork, in other words. And there's just some people in this country that couldn't manage that to save their lives, and likely would cost us lives if they were to serve in battle.

So to answer the question should there be mandatory military service, my answer is NO. The cost would be too high, in lives moreso than money.

That's a nice answer. :thumbsup:

I wonder what the response (if any) will be from those who can't resort to the "chickenhawk" monicker.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
To your first para - I'd have to say... this is graphic but when I chill with Marines I try to get the details w/o bringing back bad memories.

Some of them told of times when they completely defied Geneva Conventions and went straight in guns ablazing. I mean sawed-off shotguns taking out Iraqis straight up. Shooting a bunch of dudes walking across the street... its understandable without level headedness in the unit you can do anything you want; its pretty much a video game.

As for the second... Man people on the ground influence EVERYTHING. Your daily interactions with occupied citizens and officials mean everything. Being respectful, respecting local customs and not engaging in abuse is very important. Trust must be gained on a citywide level in my opinion. Ya know?

now I know you are full of sh:t. Sawed off shotguns? lol nice one. Grunts don't carry shotguns, let alone be allowed to saw off the barrel of a govt weapon. Very few marines ever actually get issued shotguns, and as far as i know thats only to embassy guards. Next time you want to make something up, at least do a little research.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian
Sorry, I'm not going to vote in your poll, since I think the choices you gave aren't worth answering with, but I will give you my opinion.

As one of those that have served in uniform, back in the old days when judges with juvenile delinquents would oftentimes give the choice of "3 years military or 3 years jail", I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are people that are not now, nor will ever be, suitable for military service. Contrary to those that believe that people that join the military aren't very intelligent (okay, there are some lunkheads, but I was operating nuclear power plants in the navy, and believe me when I tell you that they don't hire dummies to do that job!!), or are "war-mongers", "haters" or whatever other petty little label they want to use for people in the military, there are certain qualities that make a person a better soldier, sailor, marine or airman than others would be.

Mostly, it's not just a love of country (usually quite strong in those that serve), but the belief that they can make a difference, and the longing to do so. Back in the Carter and early Reagan eras of the military, the volunteer military almost ceased to exist, and you had people that came in primarily for educational benefits and careers. Nowadays it's not much different, but you are seeing a higher percentage of people who are doing this for their love of country, rather than the 100% tuition coverage (although they do take advantage of it......one air force tech sergeant [e-6] that I work with has his bachelor's degree, almost has his master's, and will likely earn his doctorate soon after he retires).

But to ask military service of every person would be to make the military worse than it's ever been. Okay, in times of great need (like a world war), you might need to institute the draft, but I don't see the need for that at this time. Even with the media giving daily reports on all the negative aspects of Iraq, you still have people willing to go into the military. Certainly not in the numbers prior to the Iraq invasion, but nevertheless in numbers higher than I expected with all the bad press the situation in Iraq gets on a daily basis. However, the single biggest thing that you're taught in basic training is how to rely on your buddies, and make certain that they can rely on you. Teamwork, in other words. And there's just some people in this country that couldn't manage that to save their lives, and likely would cost us lives if they were to serve in battle.

So to answer the question should there be mandatory military service, my answer is NO. The cost would be too high, in lives moreso than money.

Good post, and thank you for your service. As a lot of people who have served in the military know, there's some dummies and some real sharp individuals... a mixture of both, just like the "real world." And yes, even though some people -the kind of people who don't know the military and would never understand- like to view servicemen and women as idiot dead-enders and people looking to fulfill their bloodlust, they are ignorant and therefore irrelevant.

You talking about the AF tech sgt made me think of a lotta people I know... one in particular was a guy who shipped just 2 days ago... I got to see him say goodbye to his family at the MEPS. He just got his BA from ASU (he knew Pat Tillman BTW), real smart, super athlete, great guy, and is going Airborne. This is a guy that could go virtually anywhere in life. There are all kinds of quality people like this in the military.

I served 4 years in the Air Force Reserve pre-9/11, and I always knew I'd be back. After getting married and finishing my Masters, I'm returning in 06... I've been accepted into Army OCS (M.I.)

Some people "on the outside" can never understand why people like this would join. It's a feeling, a respect, and a love... an appreciation for the military's core values, a challenge, a desire to push yourself and serve this nation... and yes, there are some great benefits. But it's those intangibles that elude people like the bitter old Leftwinger (and others) on P&N.

Your points about a draft-based military being a mess are true. Those in the armed serviced are the least likely to push for something like that because they know better. I do disagree with you about the draft-in-emergencies type thing, because I think in a true emergency we'd get the people we need, but the overall tone and feel of your post is admirable. :thumbsup:

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Proletariat
To your first para - I'd have to say... this is graphic but when I chill with Marines I try to get the details w/o bringing back bad memories.

Some of them told of times when they completely defied Geneva Conventions and went straight in guns ablazing. I mean sawed-off shotguns taking out Iraqis straight up. Shooting a bunch of dudes walking across the street... its understandable without level headedness in the unit you can do anything you want; its pretty much a video game.

As for the second... Man people on the ground influence EVERYTHING. Your daily interactions with occupied citizens and officials mean everything. Being respectful, respecting local customs and not engaging in abuse is very important. Trust must be gained on a citywide level in my opinion. Ya know?

now I know you are full of sh:t. Sawed off shotguns? lol nice one. Grunts don't carry shotguns, let alone be allowed to saw off the barrel of a govt weapon. Very few marines ever actually get issued shotguns, and as far as i know thats only to embassy guards. Next time you want to make something up, at least do a little research.

Hot damn, Train... you're justa worthless NeoCon chickenhawk!! You better get out there and start chucking grenades at them there terrists