cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Huh? Please explain your "reasoning." You somehow seem to feel that each and every living individual needs to "earn" his or her own way through life, and you've somehow come to the conclusion that military experience is somehow "good enough" to earn you that. Care to elaborate?
Absolutely not. The last time we had a draft, it spawned the current crowd of warmongering neocons that plague us today. Draft dodgers like Dick Cheney. Active duty dodgers like George Bush Jr.
After General Shinseki's comments before a senate hearing, I believe the war in Iraq was part of the plan to provoke military spending for its own sake. Congress doesn't seem willing to authorize any increase in the size of forces either.
Colin Powell, the only career military combat experienced official was marginalized at the Department of State. Rumsfeld took over the management of postwar (sic) Iraq.
Instituting a draft would give the current administration or followon neocon wimps a force that looks good on paper. It's all about numbers. Quantity over Quality. Nope, it doesn't serve the country, its interests or the world for the United States to reinstate the drafrt.
After General Shinseki's comments before a senate hearing, I believe the war in Iraq was part of the plan to provoke military spending for its own sake. Congress doesn't seem willing to authorize any increase in the size of forces either.
Colin Powell, the only career military combat experienced official was marginalized at the Department of State. Rumsfeld took over the management of postwar (sic) Iraq.
Instituting a draft would give the current administration or followon neocon wimps a force that looks good on paper. It's all about numbers. Quantity over Quality. Nope, it doesn't serve the country, its interests or the world for the United States to reinstate the drafrt.
I'd have no problem with mandatory civil service, but I don't want my kids shipped around the world on yet another version of Dick and Dubya's Excellent Adventure.
This isn't anything really new. As others have said, there are plenty of other countries with a similar concept. I've heard stories of people who were born in a foreign country, but are American citizens. Yet, when showing up in a foreign country, be told they were required to fulfill their service. (I believe it was Greece)
I would say No because the quality of the military would suffer badly. And I believe in peoples freedom to do what they want.
Though as our education system sinks deeper and deeper, we are running out of options to create a productive youth.
But I do find it odd that people who would fight vehemently for social programs are also the first to reject the OP's notion. Its like we are a society of "gimme gimme, but dont ask me to do sh:t for anyone else".
Though as our education system sinks deeper and deeper, we are running out of options to create a productive youth.
But I do find it odd that people who would fight vehemently for social programs are also the first to reject the OP's notion. Its like we are a society of "gimme gimme, but dont ask me to do sh:t for anyone else".
The military is not politeness camp or a place to throw kids who's parents did a lousy job raising them. It is used to defend our country, period. I don't want my tax dollars to go to taking care of some punk kid because you guys think military service is the answer to his problems.
And am I the only person who's sick of the whole idea that the only way to gain discipline, respect, serve your country, etc, etc, is through the military? It's the military, the basic idea is killing people you don't like (or that your commander in chief doesn't like). A fine task, to be sure, but it seems like it's not quite the same as good parenting.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
I agree it would have its strengths. I'd be all for 2 years of SOME kind of mandatory service, which could be in the military, Peace Corps, Americorps, or other state-sanctioned volunteer organization.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
There are numerous European countries that have similar programs in place...some of these nations do not explicitely require military service...18 year old citizens have the option to serve in any number of government or public service roles.
Because I served in the military, I am a proponent of military service...the opportunity to see the world and expand my worldview beyond the confines of suburban America definitely opened my mind to ideas and beliefs I otherwise would never have otherwise experienced given my less then privileged background.
There are tangible benefits to such a program...it could help to level the playing field between the have's and have not's...wealthy kids getting a taste of public service...kids born into poverty having the opportunity to escape a cycle of inner city life...able bodies readily available to dedicate to any number of social welfare programs, and for those who choose to, military service.
I think if these kids have a choice between civil service and military service, such a program would benefit America.
Because I served in the military, I am a proponent of military service...the opportunity to see the world and expand my worldview beyond the confines of suburban America definitely opened my mind to ideas and beliefs I otherwise would never have otherwise experienced given my less then privileged background.
There are tangible benefits to such a program...it could help to level the playing field between the have's and have not's...wealthy kids getting a taste of public service...kids born into poverty having the opportunity to escape a cycle of inner city life...able bodies readily available to dedicate to any number of social welfare programs, and for those who choose to, military service.
I think if these kids have a choice between civil service and military service, such a program would benefit America.
Many countries have similar programs. Italy had a program like this, but it was 18 months. I think they could do the same training using local voluntary Part-Time Malitias. It would not be exactly the same but you could learn stuff like this in the evening in a highschool and out on a rifle range. It could even be taught in a 30 day Summer Boot Camp while on vacation for a couple years running. I think some high school kids might like it as a temporary summer camp. It would not go well if it was mandatory. However, if a paycheck and free uniforms were part of the deal some people might like it.
Many people would enjoy camping out and marching and getting to shoot real bullets and trying out a gas mask.
I have done a few jobs that were worse than military training and for about the same pay or less. Everyone is always saying youngsters are too overweight, and this might help out a lot. Imagine a voluntary Jurior ROTC Program at every High School, kind of like a drill team or maybe cheerleader competitions.
Lots of people like paintball and stuff like that. It is a lot more real with live ammunition. The military has lots of jobs it might need to fill in both a civilian and military fashion. I was a Clerk (Think Radar!) in the US Army. You have lots of jobs like Pilot, aircraft mechanics, Airframe Repair, Fuel Delivery, Mechanic, Military Inteligence, Supply and logistics, Ground Troops, Navy Seals, Ship Captain, Navy Seaman, Airman, Air Traffic Control, Truck Driver, General, Encryption, spy.
Many people would enjoy camping out and marching and getting to shoot real bullets and trying out a gas mask.
I have done a few jobs that were worse than military training and for about the same pay or less. Everyone is always saying youngsters are too overweight, and this might help out a lot. Imagine a voluntary Jurior ROTC Program at every High School, kind of like a drill team or maybe cheerleader competitions.
Lots of people like paintball and stuff like that. It is a lot more real with live ammunition. The military has lots of jobs it might need to fill in both a civilian and military fashion. I was a Clerk (Think Radar!) in the US Army. You have lots of jobs like Pilot, aircraft mechanics, Airframe Repair, Fuel Delivery, Mechanic, Military Inteligence, Supply and logistics, Ground Troops, Navy Seals, Ship Captain, Navy Seaman, Airman, Air Traffic Control, Truck Driver, General, Encryption, spy.
Isn't this already the current state of affairs?
I said yes, I think in the two years after HS it would be great if kids could learn survival training, comraderie, help the community... The military does more than just fight wars, it's expected to be there when emergencies happen, alot of natural disasters (forest fires, flooding) have military personal there in the aftermath to do the grunt work but to also provide engineers and equipment to deal with the situation. However, I don't think that kids in the program should be sent off to wars, those that like the lifestyle can continue in their careers. It would give kids good exposure to the world, allow them to think more about their future careers teach them life skills. Countries such as Denmark, Germany, Austria, Israel, Finland, and Switzerland all have mandatory service in some aspect or another. Most offer some sort of option for conscientious objectors which would involve civil/community servive exclusively.
One aspect of this program that I do not support is that it would effectively stunt or delay the growth of certain minds in the country. Personally, I would rather have some kids learning about high level mathematics, physics, engineering, medicine, and so forth than learning how to shoot a rifle. There would have to be an exception clause in this type of program where certain educational topics are accepted in replacement of military or civil service. In addition, this may force more students to go into these sorts of subjects.
CaptnKirk
Lifer
- Jul 25, 2002
- 10,053
- 0
- 71
Insufficient investment of effort. In one year you can barely push a recruit through a Basic Training session,
screen out and evaluate them for what skills, job codes, & MOS assignments will be needed by the service in that projected window of time,
and train them within those parameters.
First two months entail the service entrance dance, the 'get down to brasss tacks' part of Basic, and the shipment and transport of that recruit
to their next phase of training. Anywhere from 4 months to 7 months of speciality training will be additionally invested in them
when they have finally progressed to the level that they can enter the OJT phase of their service commitment.
Risk is - they would be getting out with as little as 3 months of their 'Commitment', after having had many thousands of value
added training applied to their personal worth. Like a college your parents didn't pay for.
One year is too small of a personal commitment to take advantage of the skills that the recipiant would be receiving, and even 2 years is questionable.
The Draft brought in a conscript regardless of their personal will and commited them to 3 years and out, if not extended . . or shot.
Three years is fair, with options that are not as 'Militant' as a fighting Military. Coast Guard provides the best Rescue Service in the world.
Many people from the South DO take advantave of Military service as a career - in order to escape from the poverty of their youth.
Every time I visit a Military base I see, meet, and talk to these self made success stories.
One in Ft. Campbell is a Steller example. Joined at 18 to get away from the urban ghetto as an enlisted volunteer, got out, GI Billed through College
and came back in as an Officer, Lt. Colonel after 12 years. Thug in the Ghetto or Army Colonel, easy choice, no ?
I spoke too quickly...I agree that trying to help kids after high school develop into adult members of the community is a fine goal, but the military is certainly not the only way to do that. As someone else pointed out, valuable skills like science and engineering would not be a focus, even though those are skill areas at least on par with survival training. Beyond that, propaganda to the contrary, military service isn't some kind of magic wand. I know plenty of assholes who have served, and I know a lot of great people that haven't.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the military, and I have nothing against programs for after high school. But military service isn't the answer to all of the issues a program like that could address, before we all get too caught up in the recruiting commercials, I think it's worth it to think about additional ideas.
That's a great story, and I'm glad the Army provides that opportunity for so many people. But it's not the best solution for everyone...
If people want to join the military or peace corps, we already have those available for those who wish to join. Forcing people to join something they don't want to wouldn't accomplish anything. What do you do with someone who is forced into joining Peace Corps and they don't show up for the job, do you fire them and they continue on with their lives? Or do you throw them in prison, which accomplishes even less then someone clearing a trail?
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Yes, for the past 60 years, Americans have been led to believe that that spending billions for the "Defense" of the country is not only necessary but patriotic. Nevermind the founders were largly suspect of a standing army let alone projection aboard and foreign mettleing.
There is no turning back until other nations begin to aleinate us and more probably it will bankrupt or worse find ourselves outmatched in ASIA.
BTW as cold war supporter and US Navy veteran I can tesitify the dumbest people I have ever encountered was in the military. Many could'nt even make thier bed or knew personel hygene until the military taught them. So don't let Jerome get you down. That said there were some really smart ones, real patriotic, who joined for everything but financial incentive. The sad part really is those who do which I'd estimate at 60% based on my experiances and testimony before various commitees. Obvioulsy military needs to pay more (double or triple) and structure it's mission better to attract best and brightest 100%, so we don't have embarresing incidents carried out in our name.
Uh, no. Implying and insinuating (as you often do) that the military is stupid, and that they breed retards, is anti-military.
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