Make a mistake at a game of Simon Says? You get killed.

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VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,950
10,471
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How anyone can defend how these cops handled this situation is mind boggling..they had that situation completely under control. If they Slowly walk over and cuff him, that mans children still have a father.

What the officer did was unconscionable, but there's a more fundamentally important question that needs to be answered: how on earth did he ever get to the point where he and his colleague think that this was the appropriate response? It wasn't a rogue cop by himself - he had a partner with him. He had a video camera. He knew his actions would see the light of day. He wasn't making an effort to conceal anything. He responded to a situation and he acted. He and his partner were obviously led to believe that this was how to respond to the situation, and that's the scary part.

Based on this incident, it seems that these officers weren't trained in any way to assess the threat until they could first be absolutely, 100% sure that the threat was completely eliminated. The classic "Shoot first and ask questions later" line of thought. It seems that "I was afraid" is actually a professionally-sanctioned justification for using deadly force against citizens and it's a pretty effective defense against blatantly criminal abuse of civil rights. The scary part is that there's no real accountability. A department can simply distance itself from its actions by blaming the individual officer in question, but what changes in terms of training and changing the behavior of other officers? It's disturbing enough that this officer got away with killing a man for no reason at all, but what's potentially more disturbing is that perhaps nothing changes. What, then, is preventing this from being repeated?

I have absolutely no problem in theory with a jury being instructed to see things from the police officer's point of view - that's valid application of the law. What's utterly invalid are the standards of behavior and protocols of assessing a threat that are being judged, that simply moving your body the wrong way can be interpreted as a mortal threat. This goes back to training, and I'm afraid that without specific statutes and oversight, we will continue to see more of these incidents. The standard is that simply being afraid, being startled is a legal defense for officers killing civilians. It's yet another byproduct of our creeping authoritarian society, with the emphasis on public security over individual rights.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,894
10,720
147
Sounds like you're the one with the "us versus them" mentality. If you approach every situation like that, you're setting the attitude.
Sounds more like you are. Screams it, actually.

Let me ask you straight up. Do you think the way the cops handled this situation was the way they should have? And do you think, given everything that guy did and didn't do, that he should have been shot to death?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
YEAH! KILL ALL COPS! LET'S MAKE THIS INTO A HATE THREAD!!!!

Raaaaaaage!

I'll watch the video now.

[edit]
Nice description! You should have said they rammed a broom handle up his ass too. We can safely assume all cops have done that at some point.

1. He had already removed the burning article of clothing.

2. Though we can't hear what the cops are saying from the camera's position, you can bet they're telling him to lay down with his hands on the ground. They use force to get him into that position. He was kneeling on all fours, so they use their feet to kick his hands out and make him lay down. Then they immediately remove him from the dangerous proximity to the burning vehicle.

I'm also going to guess he endangered a lot of people in the moments leading up to this fiery crash.

If these circumstances are incorrect, then the cops were in the wrong. The video tells me nothing useful.

lol. They are incorect. That was just some random guy who was hit by the high speed chase.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
YEAH! KILL ALL COPS! LET'S MAKE THIS INTO A HATE THREAD!!!!

Raaaaaaage!

I'll watch the video now.

[edit]
Nice description! You should have said they rammed a broom handle up his ass too. We can safely assume all cops have done that at some point.

1. He had already removed the burning article of clothing.

2. Though we can't hear what the cops are saying from the camera's position, you can bet they're telling him to lay down with his hands on the ground. They use force to get him into that position. He was kneeling on all fours, so they use their feet to kick his hands out and make him lay down. Then they immediately remove him from the dangerous proximity to the burning vehicle.

I'm also going to guess he endangered a lot of people in the moments leading up to this fiery crash.

If these circumstances are incorrect, then the cops were in the wrong. The video tells me nothing useful.

Jesus H Christ on a stick are you really that horrible of a person?

The guy had just been in a very bad crash and was fucking rolling around the ground on friggen fire! You know trauma like that just might sorta kinda make it a wee bit difficult to immediately follow orders. Since you are making baseless assumptions I'll go ahead and make one, the guy had severe burns on his stomach or upper leg that prevented him from laying flat and honestly I couldn't blame the guy if he was still flailing. However, since he was very obviously injured and likely in shock there was absolutely zero need to go straight to kicking the shit out of him. How about you just pull his arm causing him to fall and moving it behind his back first before you move straight to kicking the shit out of an injured man? Is that really so much to ask of our professional police?

You really will go out on any stretch and make any assumption to try to argue the police did no wrong, won't you? Hell I'm not sure if you think the police CAN do any wrong.

Edit: Yes, yes you really are that horrible of a person.

lol. They are incorect. That was just some random guy who was hit by the high speed chase.

Holy shit, that just makes it so very much worse. They actually broke his freaking ribs, an innocent man that had just been critically injured and set on fucking fire in THEIR chase!

Edit 2: Four days later the guy was still in critical condition and was to undergo surgery, I'm assuming skin grafts. He was indeed an innocent bystander who was hit during a seriously fucked up highspeed chase in which at one point officers actually fired their weapons from their speeding car at another speeding car seriously endangering the public to take an absurdly low probability shot. You have a greater likelihood of hitting anything but the driver, this shit isn't the movies.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
and if you did hit the driver what happens to that 5000lbs of steel on wheels?
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
lol. They are incorect. That was just some random guy who was hit by the high speed chase.
Thanks for including that information with the video. Oh...you didn't!

So you posted the unrelated video to stoke an "us versus them" hate orgy?
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
Jesus H Christ on a stick are you really that horrible of a person?

The guy had just been in a very bad crash and was fucking rolling around the ground on friggen fire!
Are you trying to convince yourself that he hadn't already removed the burning piece of clothing and was then kneeling on all fours?

You know trauma like that just might sorta kinda make it a wee bit difficult to immediately follow orders.
The camera is in a bad location (very close to the blaring sirens). I don't know that orders were even given. It's not obvious in the video. Still, my impression is that they had possibly yelled for him to lay face-down on the ground -- based only on the fact that kicking his hands out from under him just forces him to the ground while minimizing vulnerability of the apprehending officers.

Note:

If these circumstances are incorrect, then the cops were in the wrong. The video tells me nothing useful.

Noted?

Since you are making baseless assumptions I'll go ahead and make one,
You already did:

You know trauma like that just might sorta kinda make it a wee bit difficult to immediately follow orders.

Orders? I don't know if there were any. I lamented the lack of information or context. I called out the post as a likely attempt to encourage cop hate. Guess what? That's exactly what it was. It had all the hallmarks of jst0rm posting a bad cop behavior video to stoke our runaway cop hate, and that has proven to be exactly what he did. It had no relevance. Not enough information was initially provided for me to condem anyone.

After he provided the information that this guy was an innocent bystander (which he deliberately withheld earlier), I'm comfortable condemning the cops for carelessly mistaking his identity.

the guy had severe burns on his stomach or upper leg that prevented him from laying flat and honestly I couldn't blame the guy if he was still flailing. However, since he was very obviously injured and likely in shock there was absolutely zero need to go straight to kicking the shit out of him.
You need to reign in the exaggeration. They kicked his hands out from under him, forcing him to lay flat. They did not "kick the shit out of him."

How about you just pull his arm causing him to fall and moving it behind his back first before you move straight to kicking the shit out of an injured man? Is that really so much to ask of our professional police?
Do you know why they're trained not to get in close and make themselves vulnerable until a suspect is prone? Do you? I think it's pretty obvious.

There you go again with saying they "kicked the shit out of him." Again, they "kicked the hands out from under him."

You really will go out on any stretch and make any assumption to try to argue the police did no wrong, won't you? Hell I'm not sure if you think the police CAN do any wrong.
They certainly did wrong in that video. Posted without relevance specifically to inflame cop hate. Working 100% as intended. You're falling for jst0rm's troll post.

Edit: Yes, yes you really are that horrible of a person.



Holy shit, that just makes it so very much worse. They actually broke his freaking ribs, an innocent man that had just been critically injured and set on fucking fire in THEIR chase!
Don't you think it's more likely his ribs were broken by the car that hit him?

Edit 2: Four days later the guy was still in critical condition and was to undergo surgery, I'm assuming skin grafts. He was indeed an innocent bystander who was hit during a seriously fucked up highspeed chase
I know. It's pretty horrible. Why are we talking about this unrelated case of bad cop behavior and careless mistaken identity?

in which at one point officers actually fired their weapons from their speeding car at another speeding car seriously endangering the public to take an absurdly low probability shot. You have a greater likelihood of hitting anything but the driver, this shit isn't the movies.
Perhaps they took that chance based on the location at that moment? Maybe because they wanted a chance to avoid this exact scenario where an innocent bystander was struck and injured?

"Kicking the shit out of him" I saw them kick his hands out from under to force him to lay down. I saw them apprehend him and drag him away quite roughly, as if he was the driver. I didn't not see "kicking the shit out of him."

Quite deliberately, jst0rm posted that video without saying if that guy was an innocent bystander or the previously-fleeing driver at the end of a high speed chase. He posted an irrelevant example of bad cop behavior to fuel anti-cop rage / hate. Let's all fall for it!

YEAH! FUCK THE POLICE!!!
 
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Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
and if you did hit the driver what happens to that 5000lbs of steel on wheels?
A concern they are trained to consider. If they had been successful stopping the chase in an area that was safe for them to attempt (even if it was a slim chance), it might have avoided this exact outcome.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Some people worship authority. It's oddly vital to their worldview. I think it escapes them that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
126
If I was on that jury I may have voted for acquittal pending on how closely that cop was acting within department policy and training before the actuall shooting. That said, this was a fucked up shooting and we need to train our cops better and transition them from a culture of escalating dangerous situation to one of deescalation.

Things I think that cop did wrong:

1. Finger on the trigger of his weapon the entire time, even before confronting the suspects. It doesn't take long to go from finger outside of the trigger guard to on the trigger. Keeping it on the trigger before you have to shoot is fucking stupid.

2. Yelled loud, threatening, and sometimes contradictory commands at the suspects in a way that was sure to scare the crap out of them. Nothing he screamed calmed the situation down one bit, and in fact made shit 100x worse. All this with his finger on the trigger.

3. After shooting the subject they continued on to try and clear the room. Couldn't they have secured the hallway and had someone drag the suspect out to get medical treatment? I know clearing that room was a priority for them, but when their key card didn't work they gave up. So clearing that room wasn't important enough to kick a door in for, but it was more important than medical treatment for someone they had just shot. This tell me a ton about where their heads were.

We need to train our cops better to deescalate dangerous situation instead of being so aggressive that it becomes counterproductive. But if the overly (IMHO) aggressive way they handled the situation was within department policy then you can't fault the cop for the actual shooting itself.

Now, the big fuck up by the suspect that would make me vote acquittal was when he twice put his hands behind his back. He did it once and the officer told him if he did it again he would be shot. Then, while crawling to the officers, he reached behind his back with his right hand a second time and his elbow went up as if he was drawing a weapon. That's asking to be shot. Maybe he was too stupid or drunk and was just pulling up his pants, but this unbelievably stupid action is what got him shot and killed.

I've observed and run through a law enforcement shoot/don't shoot simulator before and learned it's not such an easy decision to make in a split second. I had a similar situation to this on one round where a suspect ignored my commands to show me their hands and reached behind them. I was unwilling to shoot until I actually saw what was in his hands and by that time it was too late and I got hit with a crowbar to the head.

I'd really, really like to think I wouldn't have taken the shots this cop did, but I'm not so sure because of my desire to live. But I damn well know that screaming so aggressively at that guy and escalating the situation like they did was a recipe for a deadly disaster.
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
126
Some people worship authority. It's oddly vital to their worldview. I think it escapes them that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
For this to be true we would have to assume all authority is unjust and all dissent is righteous and just. Many people dissent for selfish or flat-out wrong reasons and we can't condone that under the guise of patriotism.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
If I was on that jury I may have voted for acquittal pending on how closely that cop was acting within department policy and training before the actuall shooting. That said, this was a fucked up shooting and we need to train our cops better and transition them from a culture of escalating dangerous situation to one of deescalation.

Things I think that cop did wrong:

1. Finger on the trigger of his weapon the entire time, even before confronting the suspects. It doesn't take long to go from finger outside of the trigger guard to on the trigger. Keeping it on the trigger before you have to shoot is fucking stupid.

2. Yelled loud, threatening, and sometimes contradictory commands at the suspects in a way that was sure to scare the crap out of them. Nothing he screamed calmed the situation down one bit, and in fact made shit 100x worse. All this with his finger on the trigger.

3. After shooting the subject they continued on to try and clear the room. Couldn't they have secured the hallway and had someone drag the suspect out to get medical treatment? I know clearing that room was a priority for them, but when their key card didn't work they gave up. So clearing that room wasn't important enough to kick a door in for, but it was more important than medical treatment for someone they had just shot. This tell me a ton about where their heads were.

But if all the above was within department training and policy then you can't fault that cop for following it. We need to train our cops better to deescalate dangerous situation instead of being so aggressive that it becomes counterproductive.

Now, the big fuck up by the suspect that would make me vote acquittal is when he twice put his hands behind his back. He did it once and the officer told him if he did it again he would be shot. Then, while crawling to the officers, he reached behind his back with his right hand a second time and his elbow went up as if he was drawing a weapon. Maybe he was too stupid or drunk and was just pulling up his pants, but this unbelievably stupid action is what got him shot and killed.

I've observed and run through a law enforcement shoot/don't shoot simulator before and learned it's not such an easy decision to make in a split second. I had a similar situation to this on one round where a suspect ignored my commands to show me their hands and reached behind them. I was unwilling to shoot until I actually saw what was in his hands and by that time it was too late and I got hit with a crowbar to the head.

I'd really, really like to think I wouldn't have taken the shots this cop did, but I'm not so sure because of my desire to live. But I damn well know that screaming so aggressively at that guy and escalating the situation like they did was a recipe for a deadly disaster.
This is a reasonable and sensible post.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Maybe he was too stupid or drunk and was just pulling up his pants, but this unbelievably stupid action is what got him shot and killed.

I disagree. I think the impossible game of hokey pokey designed to get the perp to fail so he could be shot is what got him shot and killed...
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
Are you trying to convince yourself that he hadn't already removed the burning piece of clothing and was then kneeling on all fours?

No, I'm not, are you trying to convince yourself that this guy was from all indications severely injured and in a state of shock?

The camera is in a bad location (very close to the blaring sirens), but I don't know that orders were even given. It's not obvious in the video. Still, my impression is that they had possibly yelled for him to lay face-down on the ground -- based only on the fact that kicking his hands out from under him just forces him to the ground while minimizes he vulnerability of the apprehending officers.

What video are you watching? It actually appears that a small (relatively) portion of his pants were still burning. However he was not "on all fours" when the cops approached him. He was literally in the process of going down on all fours when the officers delivered the first kick. So IF they had been giving him instruction to lay flat down it would appear that he was following them despite just being on freaking fire and possibly STILL being on fire. I also must state that even if they were giving him orders they didn't even give him time to comply before kicking him.

After he provided the information that this guy was an innocent bystander (which he deliberately withheld earlier), I'm comfortable condemning the cops for carelessly mistaking his identity.

No one said that they mistook his identity...

You need to reign in the exaggeration. They kicked his hands out from under him, forcing him to lay flat. They did not "kick the shit out of him."

See below.
Do you know why they're trained not to get in close and make themselves vulnerable until a suspect is prone? Do you? I think it's pretty obvious.
See above
There you go again with saying they "kicked the shit out of him." Again, they "kicked the hands out from under him."

First of all he wasn't a suspect he was an innocent bystander of THEIR car chase. No they did not simply kick his hands out from under him, I don't know what video you are watching but again you are trying excuse the cops. I know this for as close to an absolute fact as one can be, want to know how? I spent all of 3 minutes, longer than it took you to make this bullshit reply, looking into the story. The 4 officers in the video have been indicted and one of them has been charged with attempted murder. Do you really think a DA would seek an attempted murder charge against an officer who simply kicked a persons hands out from under them, innocent of not?

Since you will probably respond with further crap to try and say the officers where doing what they were "trained" to do against an innocent person that was severely burned as a result of their car chase and they were just kicking his hands out from under him:

First kick at 21 seconds: Kick is obviously to head/chest area and not his arms and it was delivered WHILE he was going down on all fours, not after he was already on all fours. That completely removes the entire "trying to kick his arms out from under him and/or non-compliance to a get down order".

22 seconds: He is now flat on the ground after being kicked very hard.

23 seconds: Two more kicks to his ribs, again while he is flat on the ground

24 seconds: He is stomped on his back/head area

31 seconds: Without cuffing this critically injured man that they just had to, yes, kick the shit out of while on the ground because he was such a danger they finally start extremely roughly dragging him to safety.

You know what, despite it still being incredibly fucked up I won't even argue on the extremely rough way they dragged the poor bastard to safety because at least they did instead of just leaving him there after they kicked the shit out of him.

Don't you think it's more likely his ribs were broken by the car that hit him?

The doctors and prosecutors don't, I think I'll take their words over yours.

I know. It's pretty horrible. Why are we talking about this unrelated case of bad cop behavior and careless mistaken identity?

Perhaps they took that chance based on the location at that moment? Maybe because they wanted a chance to avoid this exact scenario where an innocent bystander was struck and injured?

So they knew for a fact that no one was around in that location and there bullets that were very likely to miss and had virtually zero chance of stopping the pursuit, gotcha. Oh and after they endangered the public to try and avoid an innocent bystander being struck and injured they then proceed to injur said innocent bystander even more, yup your explanation sounds very plausible.

Quite deliberately, jst0rm posted that video without saying if that guy was an innocent bystander or the previously-fleeing driver at the end of a high speed chase. He posted an irrelevant example of bad cop behavior to fuel anti-cop rage / hate. Let's all fall for it!

While I can't be 100% sure of his intentions I think it's just as likely, if not more so, that he posted it knowing that you would run to the defense of the cops. In a matter of a few short minutes I was able to get a plethora of detail on the video. You on the other hand jumped straight to the defense of the cops and even after being told some of the facts of the case continue to defend, excuse, and minimize their actions to the best of your ability!
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
I disagree. I think the impossible game of hokey pokey designed to get the perp to fail so he could be shot is what got him shot and killed...

WOavy6K.jpg
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,978
794
136
i have many cop friends (former military buds) from federal down to local levels. nearly of all of them have a us vs them mentality. they were not that callous when we were in the military and its quite sad to see how disconnected they have become over the years. very black and white thinking on this case they refuse to call out the cop doing the shooting. the response was the scumbag should have followed instructions and he would be alive.

I have to say there are some circumstances when cops will call out the "bad" cop.

Like the time that cop pulled over the other cop for doing 120MPH on the freeway...man those cops hated that bad cop for pulling over the good 120MPH cop. Hundreds of cops around the state properly violated the bad cop's privacy rights and illegally viewed her private information records so they could harass her. Which they then did.

Or this other time when a bad cop had the situation under control with a mentally handicapped kid but then the good cops arrived and properly escalated the situation by beating that kid. The evil bad cop jumped in between them and stopped the beating. The good police of that department properly shunned this bad cop and ended up firing her.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,978
794
136
YEAH! KILL ALL COPS! LET'S MAKE THIS INTO A HATE THREAD!!!!

Raaaaaaage!

Police would gain a whole lot more respect and trust if they could hold their own accountable. How are you suggesting we are supposed to feel toward them when they don't do this?
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
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I disagree. I think the impossible game of hokey pokey designed to get the perp to fail so he could be shot is what got him shot and killed...

Designed to? Like it was premeditated? You believe that cop was just out to find a reason to execute someone for shits and giggles?

That the cop doesn't care about his career, family, being sued out of house and home or the very sanctity of human life? He does a dangerous job and risks his life daily so that he may one day get the opportunity to shoot someone?

And you totally ignore everything else I said in my long post? That the guy who got shot reached behind him twice? That the cop warned him repeatedly not to or he would be shot?

Your hatred speaks louder than your common sense does.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
878
126

Yup, cowards trained not to move into an uncleared area where a threat could very well still exist and instead require the suspect to move under control to them where they can cuff him in safety. And you left out the frames where the suspect reached behind his back twice after being told not to or he would be shot.

Why the fuck am I arguing with a meme anyway.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,549
761
146
And you left out the frames where the suspect reached behind his back twice after being told not to or he would be shot..

Which is ironic. If it's such a threat, why does he let it slide multiple times? Sorry, but this shows a disregard to the public's safety. A lot of these cops would do it even if it means the threat is so low that 99 civilians would die before even one cop did.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Designed to? Like it was premeditated? You believe that cop was just out to find a reason to execute someone for shits and giggles?

That the cop doesn't care about his career, family, being sued out of house and home or the very sanctity of human life? He does a dangerous job and risks his life daily so that he may one day get the opportunity to shoot someone?

And you totally ignore everything else I said in my long post? That the guy who got shot reached behind him twice? That the cop warned him repeatedly not to or he would be shot?

Your hatred speaks louder than your common sense does.

Nonsense. I watched the video and watched a bad cop give contradictory and impossible commands to follow and killed an innocent man because of it. THIS cop executed THIS man. You continuing to try and paint us who disagree as cop haters just shows how disingenuous you are being.

Your hugging of this cops nuttsack speaks louder than your common sense does. This video being hidden until now proves it...
 
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