Maine Shooting dozens dead or injured.

[Leeea]

The answer to insanity is not more insanity. A majority of gun owners would welcome rational gun registration.

Have you met the majority of gun owners?


They seem normal at first, but once you get them talking . . . It doesn't take much. Just let them talk, they will go down the rabbit hole all by themselves.

 

[Greenman]

I find it interesting that your definition of a proper nation is unfettered access to all guns.

Parents of the Sandy Hook victims would disagree with you.

I don't see where I said that I wanted unfettered access to guns, and I don't recall ever making that statement.

Just to clarify my position, it's my belief that a sizeable percentage of people are to stupid to own a firearm. A much smaller percentage are to sick to own one. The difference between the groups is that the stupid people generally kill one at a time, the sick people generally kill many at a time.
As far as body count goes, the stupid people are responsible the vast majority of shootings.

All of that said, I'm also of the opinion that there is no way to go back. We can disarm the average citizen by changing gun laws, the sick and stupid don't care about laws and will continue to kill for a verity of stupid reasons.

 

[Moonbeam]

Gun violence is the result of access to guns.

So if liberals bought all of the guns and say I own a thousand, it’s a thousand times more likely I will shoot someone, or thousand times more likely that nobody will be shot by them.

Guns have no motive power on their own. People pull triggers. Insane people, people who want others to pay for the hurt they feel they will not seek to cure. You are the cause of gun violence, the collective fear of feeling how badly we were made to feel. Some of us just have far worse cases than others.

 

[Brainonska511]

So if liberals bought all of the guns and say I own a thousand, it’s a thousand times more likely I will shoot someone, or thousand times more likely that nobody will be shot by them.

Guns have no motive power on their own. People pull triggers. Insane people, people who want others to pay for the hurt they feel they will not seek to cure. You are the cause of gun violence, the collective fear of feeling how badly we were made to feel. Some of us just have far worse cases than others.

You write a lot, but you don't really say anything.

 

[Zorba]

All the talk of mental health seems like a huge deflection from the #1 issue behind every mass shooting in this country: easy access to firearms, particularly high-powered ones. It seems that many recent mass shooters would not meet a clinical definition of "mentally ill", and we just resort to this "mental health" reflex to rationalize why someone would pick up a rifle and decide to just go out and kill a bunch of people.

And besides, fixing the easy access to weapons is much easier than fixing all mental health issues.

 

[Leeea]

Your next date...

I tend to swing the other way, but

self confident, not afraid to stand out in a crowd, I would like her


more importantly, pretty sure she is IDF, that is her issue CAR-15, they are sometimes required to carry as civilians by law:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...-weapons/0000017f-db40-d3ff-a7ff-fbe087b70000

which is a bit different then well anything this thread is talking about


here is another pic of Israeli soldiers in a cafe:

look familiar?

 

[Zorba]

That's an interesting statement in that it implies that individual shootings don't count.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that someone would bring up Chicago, so I'll go ahead and do that now. Roughly seven people are shot in Chicago every day, but it's never reported as a mass shooting, it's never reported nationally at all as far as I know. Why is that? Why is it that continuous random shootings are just a part of life but mass shootings capture the attention of the nation? One is a horrific crime that congress needs to address, and the other is business as usual. To me they're all a national disaster, be it seven a day or 20 all at once.

Both are caused by easy access to guns. Giet rid of easily accessed guns, and both mass murders and one off murders decrease.

 

[eelw]

Both are caused by easy access to guns. Giet rid of easily accessed guns, and both mass murders and one off murders decrease.

Waits for they’ll use a knife deflection from the gun nutters

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Both are caused by easy access to guns. Giet rid of easily accessed guns, and both mass murders and one off murders decrease.

I'd rather get rid of the reasons for people wanting to murder each other. Otherwise you're just stifling emotions until people die of old age.

 

[soulcougher73]

Exactly! If you don't like mass shootings then just move out of the country! Great point.

Glad I just finished my coffee or I might also have a sick burn like you just laid down on greenman.

 

[Moonbeam]

You've been told the answer to this many times and it remains as clear today as it ever was.

Developed countries all over the planet have mentally ill people just like the US does but far less gun violence and lower murder rates. It is common sense that the one distinguishing factor is in the US mentally ill people have easy access to the tools of mass murder and in other developed countries they don't.

Seriously, this is basic, common sense.

What they do not have is an ingrained highly devoted gun culture that values the innate right of all living things to self defense.

You,as a city dwelling liberal in a city with a massive police presence have with time and local experience and few gun traditions or opportunity for sport, have become indifferent to others for whom firearms are part of the culture.

You want others to think as you do because you define rational subjectively.

Your reason looks poefectly rational according to your conditions but I don’t think thinking rationally from personal conditions is rational.

As I have suggested gun grabbers create fear in those who value their guns and the cultural madness over the issue has destroyed rational dialogue.

You see the present day Supreme Court as a problem to overcome. I see gun grabbers as part of the reason conservatives spent decades in a successful effort to create it as it is. I want that ended too, minus the imposition of radical 2nd amendment restrictions.

 

[Brainonska511]

I'd rather get rid of the reasons for people wanting to murder each other. Otherwise you're just stifling emotions until people die of old age.

A wholesale change in society and social structures sounds a wee bit more complicated than limiting the access people have to tools that enable easy killing, but do go on.

 

[soulcougher73]

I'd rather get rid of the reasons for people wanting to murder each other. Otherwise you're just stifling emotions until people die of old age.

Do both? Get rid of guns AND work on a better future?

 

[Leeea]

I'd rather get rid of the reasons for people wanting to murder each other. Otherwise you're just stifling emotions until people die of old age.

That is never going to happen.

We are humans after all. But making it harder is effective. Making it require more commitment is effective. Making it something you actually have to some some effort into is effective.


And yes, we can do something about the mental health crisis to, but that is going to be much harder to deal with. There simply are not enough providers.

 

[fskimospy]

What they do not have is an ingrained highly devoted gun culture that values the innate right of all living things to self defense.

You,as a city dwelling liberal in a city with a massive police presence have with time and local experience and few gun traditions or opportunity for sport, have become indifferent to others for whom firearms are part of the culture.

You want others to think as you do because you define rational subjectively.

Your reason looks poefectly rational according to your conditions but I don’t think thinking rationally from personal conditions is rational.

As I have suggested gun grabbers create fear in those who value their guns and the cultural madness over the issue has destroyed rational dialogue.

You see the present day Supreme Court as a problem to overcome. I see gun grabbers as part of the reason conservatives spent decades in a successful effort to create it as it is. I want that ended too, minus the imposition of radical 2nd amendment restrictions.

Absolutely nothing in my post had anything to do with my motivation to ban guns - I was simply pointing out reality to you.

I understand that this reality makes you uncomfortable and so you are trying to find ways to ignore reality, but that's the thing about reality - it doesn't care what you think.

Other developed countries have the same mental illness struggles that we do but far lower gun violence and overall murder rates. This is a simple, obviously true observation. The reason is the relative lack of access to tools of murder. Voluminous research carried out in the US shows exactly the same correlation - murder is highly correlated with access to effective tools of murder.

I think murder is bad and would like to see less of it so I support banning guns entirely. If you don't, that's your business but you should just own that position instead of making up fairy tales about how guns are not the reason for our high murder rates.

 

[Moonbeam]

Nah I don't think that's true, gun nuts are intentionally vague when they claim they support rational gun regulation so that they don't have to actually propose or support anything. Every time Democrats suggest any kind of gun regulation Republicans vehemently oppose it no matter how small it is, I have yet to hear what any gun nut considers "rational" regulation.

Most Gun Owners Support Stricter Laws—Even NRA Members

Even NRA members

time.com

Do your own search. You will find even the NRA used to support sensible gun regulation.

 

[HomerJS]

Did you support saying that about Muslims 10-15 years ago?
Just wondering how much the table has flipped.

To my prior thinking, yes, I do believe there is a larger issue that drives these violent outbursts. Although, when the suspect reportedly has a history of mental illness, they may not be the best poster child for collective punishment. There were much better recent examples to choose from.

Testing people for mental illness or mental capability to own a firearm is not collective punishment.
Also banning an offensive military style weapon is not a collective punishment. You can still own your guns for self defense, hunting and target practice.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So weird that this is such a persistent wedge issue. Majority of voters want better gun control, majority of gun owner think some weapons should have additions restrictions as to buying them.
Weird how nobody can successfully put together a coalition that basically goes after the low hanging fruit as in someone with mental issues should have limited access to guns.

 

[Pens1566]

"Enforce the existing laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Maine: Uh, we really don't have much in the way of existing laws

 

[fskimospy]

Most Gun Owners Support Stricter Laws—Even NRA Members

Even NRA members

time.com

Do your own search. You will find even the NRA used to support sensible gun regulation.

The NRA that supported sensible gun regulation had essentially nothing in common with the gun nut NRA as it exists today. It was a nonpartisan sportsman club, basically.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So if liberals bought all of the guns and say I own a thousand, it’s a thousand times more likely I will shoot someone, or thousand times more likely that nobody will be shot by them.

Guns have no motive power on their own. People pull triggers. Insane people, people who want others to pay for the hurt they feel they will not seek to cure. You are the cause of gun violence, the collective fear of feeling how badly we were made to feel. Some of us just have far worse cases than others.

You are keeping track at all times of these thousand guns? Only you have access to these thousand guns, you are not a target for burglary due to being know as the guy who has one thousand guns?

 

[MrPickins]

Shhhh.... men are talking

I know this place is mostly a sausage-fest, but we've got a few women here too. 😛

 

[fskimospy]

So weird that this is such a persistent wedge issue. Majority of voters want better gun control, majority of gun owner think some weapons should have additions restrictions as to buying them.
Weird how nobody can successfully put together a coalition that basically goes after the low hanging fruit as in someone with mental issues should have limited access to guns.

It's a microcosm of the Republican Party in general. The average voter wants more gun control but it's not a top issue for them. For gun nuts, it's everything and they are highly motivated. So really, Republican politicians don't get a big benefit of being for gun control from the average voter but get a big negative from the gun nuts so it's just easier to go along with the gun nuts.

 

[HomerJS]

I don't see where I said that I wanted unfettered access to guns, and I don't recall ever making that statement.

Just to clarify my position, it's my belief that a sizeable percentage of people are to stupid to own a firearm. A much smaller percentage are to sick to own one. The difference between the groups is that the stupid people generally kill one at a time, the sick people generally kill many at a time.
As far as body count goes, the stupid people are responsible the vast majority of shootings.

All of that said, I'm also of the opinion that there is no way to go back. We can disarm the average citizen by changing gun laws, the sick and stupid don't care about laws and will continue to kill for a verity of stupid reasons.

This country has virtually unfettered access to guns. The only roadblock is a felon and even some red states trying to remove that. Who needs good mental health? Who needs training?

You labeled this countries policies when it comes to guns as "proper" when someone suggested they may leave.

I will remind you once again, the 1994 assault weapons ban worked.

 

[Moonbeam]

Have you met the majority of gun owners?


They seem normal at first, but once you get them talking . . . It doesn't take much. Just let them talk, they will go down the rabbit hole all by themselves.

Anecdotal evidence is of no relevance to me. My anecdotal evidence is that I owe a gun that has been in my family since before I was born that my father bought because of a peeping Tom. To my knowledge it has never been fired, certainly by me. I would like to shoot it but I can’t be bothered hiding a place I would feel comfortable with. I am not interested in firing ranges or unfamiliar geography. Need to buy some land but that also makes little sense.