shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
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I'm going to toss out an opinion here...I tutor in an after school inner city program with blacks.
From a cultural perspective, I believe the reason it seems like poor blacks do not value education is because this country does not really have a vibrant black middle class. In some cities, like New York, it exists...but in most, it does not. You have a poor black class and...a scattered assortment of individuals who managed to break out. It's hard to see the value in something when there isn't strong evidence that it works.
Compare this to poor whites, where there is a flourishing white middle class pretty much everywhere.
Now, I'm not saying that is the majority...in fact a lot of poor black parents are trying to do right by their kids, but drugs, poverty, crime, and other factors limit their options a great deal.
Any thoughts?
From a cultural perspective, I believe the reason it seems like poor blacks do not value education is because this country does not really have a vibrant black middle class. In some cities, like New York, it exists...but in most, it does not. You have a poor black class and...a scattered assortment of individuals who managed to break out. It's hard to see the value in something when there isn't strong evidence that it works.
Compare this to poor whites, where there is a flourishing white middle class pretty much everywhere.
Now, I'm not saying that is the majority...in fact a lot of poor black parents are trying to do right by their kids, but drugs, poverty, crime, and other factors limit their options a great deal.
Any thoughts?
I think your phrase 'blaming their race as an excuse' is wrong, 'blame the victim' stuff. We don't say Jews 'blame their religion as an excuse' for a certain obsession with security after the holocaust.
I think there's a legitimate point buried in what you're trying to say, but it's obscrued by you not saying a word about the legitimate problems they have - not because I think you are out to hide the information to hurt them but because I think you don't really understand it, even though you say you do. In the video you watched as one school was able to do things even without the parent problem being solved. Similarly, you need to look more at the answer to your question, what can be done, not just say nothing can be.
I do think you have gotten close to the right question - when you have a problematic culture how do you improve it?
Whites had a problematic culture, and it was pretty much fixed. After centuries of racist attitudes, factors from the civil rights leaders, to leadership by men like JFKL and LBJ, to our legal system fixing much of the systemic problems (like the Plessy v. Ferguson precedent being replaced by Brown v. Board of Education because of the courageous leadership of Earl Warren), it was largely addressed.
But if I just plopped you into the south in 1950 and said 'go fix the white racism culture problem', where would you start? Would you write an eloquent letter to the editor? Organize a civil rights protest?
You would be pretty stymied trying to change the culture, I think. Just as you are pretty stymied about how to approach changing another group's different problem here.
But what I'd say we do need are efforts - just as the combination of things I listed above for whites, we need various efforts to improve culture on this too - which is exactly what right-wingers reflexively oppose.
They just throw out a clich and insist whatever program is being looked at get cancelled.
If we budget for studies, for programs, I think progress can be made, but it's really hard. Look how hard it was just to change an opinionnot really needing an money - centuries - just to get people to say 'stop treating people like an inferior race just because of skin color'. With black culture, you have to look at the effects of generations of harm and how to improve the culture.
If political support develops to make some effort I think progress can occur. It's not easy, and it is all too easy for such a program to turn into a misguided waste of resources.
But I'd like to see us make an effort, not ignore the problem and hide it behind attacks on blacks.
Affirimative action is one example of a limited program that had big benefits, but was very controversial because people didn't understand why there was any fairness to it.
But the level of education, of blacks in the middle class, increased greatly and it's hard to see how else that could have been done.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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The fact is that for whatever reason/excuse is used, few want to learn and many to attempt it get beaten up for being "white".
You can lead a person to education, but you can't make them think.
What we need are more people like Bill Cosby who tell people to get off the 'poor me" gravy train and suck it up.
Unless there is a serious mitigating circumstance everyone on Medicaid (which would be a large part of these people in Detroit) needs go be given something to do. Streets are falling apart and cities are filthy. A shovel and broom for a days wage isn't a punishment. Want free health care? Here's a mop.
There should be NO free ride. Your kids skip school? Dang, that check gets cut this month.
There needs to be a carrot and stick to the system
You can lead a person to education, but you can't make them think.
What we need are more people like Bill Cosby who tell people to get off the 'poor me" gravy train and suck it up.
Unless there is a serious mitigating circumstance everyone on Medicaid (which would be a large part of these people in Detroit) needs go be given something to do. Streets are falling apart and cities are filthy. A shovel and broom for a days wage isn't a punishment. Want free health care? Here's a mop.
There should be NO free ride. Your kids skip school? Dang, that check gets cut this month.
There needs to be a carrot and stick to the system
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CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Yah hi...I'm on Medicaid...with a BA...a full scholarship to earn an M.S...and a part-time job...over-generalization fail!
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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You missed the ought to be working thing I guess. Now if you said that you weren't going to do a thing, weren't going for an education and that's that, you would fit in to group I'm talking about.
I don't know where you are, but because of what I do I see this every day, in fact many times a day.
Can you provide a good reason why that should be allowed?
As I said, I work in an inner city school...3rd poorest in the country, so I also see it everyday.
In general, I don't think it should be allowed, but I can think of a few reasons why it should.
1.) If people are starving in the streets, my guess is crime would be even higher.
2.) Raising a child is a full-time job (I'm thinking of single mothers/fathers), especially if you have no family support network.
3.) Disability is an exception.
4.) The moral argument (should sick people be untreated because they are a drag on society).
I'm not saying any of these is a particular good reason, and I agree with the premise that those on welfare should be required to be in job training or providing community service. However, I disagree with the idea that all people who are on Medicaid are not doing anything productive (even if they aren't working). There are also mental health factors (depression) that play a role...but I'm going into Counseling, so I'm probably biased in this regard.
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yottabit
Golden Member
- Jun 5, 2008
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It's really a culture issue not a race issue.. as a COUNTRY the US lags behind in math terribly compared to most other developed nations...
I considered myself a pretty good math student (always got A's in high school through Calculus) then my first year of college I met my friend Qayyum who transferred in from Bangladesh (a comparatively very poor country). He kicks my ass at math, he doesn't even have to look up any of the formulas for u-substitution or trigonometric substitution because he knows almost all of them by heart. I'm sure it's just a function of his school's focus on mathematics.
I considered myself a pretty good math student (always got A's in high school through Calculus) then my first year of college I met my friend Qayyum who transferred in from Bangladesh (a comparatively very poor country). He kicks my ass at math, he doesn't even have to look up any of the formulas for u-substitution or trigonometric substitution because he knows almost all of them by heart. I'm sure it's just a function of his school's focus on mathematics.
yep, the US is right in the middle of the pack or worse when it comes to education worldwide. Our top tier schools are your average to below-average schools in top nations such as South Korea and Finland.
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
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I cann't believe you guys talk about Detroit like this . It was once a great city till our leaders started letting foreign companies dominate .
As for the Really smart people out there . I am not inpressed at all . WHO got us to were we are . Certainly not these under privilge kids. No it was the so called cream of the crop . Most these low scoring kids could have mismanaged our companies just as well as the so called, Cream of the crop High paid under achievers. NO its the teaching system . I find most the kids today . THe smart ones so called are half retarded . FACT!
As for the Really smart people out there . I am not inpressed at all . WHO got us to were we are . Certainly not these under privilge kids. No it was the so called cream of the crop . Most these low scoring kids could have mismanaged our companies just as well as the so called, Cream of the crop High paid under achievers. NO its the teaching system . I find most the kids today . THe smart ones so called are half retarded . FACT!
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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I'm at home now so hopefully I'll be able to take the time to give you a response which you may or not agree with, but at least be able to understand.
Before I get to your specific points I'll give you my perspective so you can get a feel for where I'm coming from.
Math and Detroit are symptoms of a long standing problem which has become increasingly problematic. It is a racial issue, and it's bizarre to deny it. Most poor uneducated people in the slums of large cities are black. That doesn't mean that they are inherently inferior, because that's just plain dumb to put forward seriously.
It is a historical situation where blacks were shunned and effectively allowed to live in isolated communities, akin to the ghettos that Jews were forced to live.
Back in the '50s and before you weren't going to get very far most of the time in the White Mans World. You were born poor and ignorant and were expected to die that way.
"Don't get uppity with me boy" was a very real problem for aspiring blacks.
Well, the back of the bus thing was rightfully challenged and finally put to rest. That didn't mean that things substantially improved though.
At this point a few things could have been done, but IMO one of the biggest mistakes was the "Great Society" concept. In essence the solution was to throw money at people figuring they would bootstrap themselves out of their situation because of course people would want to use it to improve themselves.
That was naive in the extreme. It was in essence "Give a man a fish and... well we're sorry but have another fish".
People who are given money and nothing else take the cash and run. In this case it was all about disadvantaged blacks and they got the loot.
What happened? Denial and sloth. That people were still living in slums was the fault of anything but the enlightened vision of a happy world. It completely ignored human nature, not some idealized Noble Savage vision, but that if you give money with no strings attached you are going to get generations of people who are going to expect money with no strings attached.
At least as bad IMO is that this wasn't hope, it was dependence and stagnation.
Now lest someone else comes up with "you can't just say all people are like that", note I didn't. Some did take advantage of the situation and moved on. Today their families don't live in inner city Detroit.
Checks with no serious prospects of achievement is evil. It's a drug which makes people dependent on a system and even worse a sense of entitlement. You owe me.
Well, no, but in spite of that I do not wish to substitute one cause of misery for another. I don't wish to just end social programs, but they need to take into account the reality of human nature and the circumstances of the time.
Growing up in the inner city myself where everyone was poor and having spent more years working with them all over the world for more years than I care to mention have taught me a few things.
First, people are people first, and wage earners second. There are dirty rotten scoundrels who take the check and have no intention of doing anything worthwhile, and there are those who's only goal is to have more no matter who they have to crush to get it. Neither is a good example of a decent person.
At this one place I occasionally work, I'm the white guy. Just me. They have a sign in the workplace that says "Work harder, millions on medicaid depend on you." Wait, wouldn't that be angry white men? No, it's young to middle aged black people living poor. So why the angst? Because while they are working they hear how someone is trying to work the system and what fools other blacks are who carry their own weight.
The last thing they want to hear is a lecture from some white guy tripping on guilt saying how they should be understanding because it's all the history of racism and they need to be tolerant. They'd kick that person's ass and I'd be inclined to help.
So the reality of the situation is we've created a culture where many feel it's tradition to do nothing. Again, this isn't universal. "They all are that way" isn't at all what I said, BUT there is a strong subculture which looks upon hard working blacks as being the white man's tool and if you are smart you are going to get the shit beat out of you. That's a core issue. It's not white people keeping blacks out of school. It isn't the lack of willing teachers or funds. It's just not cool to get educated. Precisely what social program will fix that? Try some more education so that people can be educated to be educated? Cry some more for the past?
It's shameful that we've made so many people slaves to the state for so long that they see a check as a right.
For the nth time, I'm not talking about people like you who are taking advantage of a situation to better yourself or someone who hit the skids and needs a hand for a bit. Neither am I griping about people who would choose to improve themselves, but either because of serious mental or physical illness they cannot. IMO a civilized society needs to care for those who cannot do so for themselves. The flip side of that coin is that civilized people need to contribute to that society by working in it when possible. It's not an option.
That brings me to your points and some suggestions/thoughts about them.
First your concern about people starving and becoming criminals as a result.
Well, that would be a serious issue if I proposed that people just be booted with no recourse. That would be as bad as expecting people to magically find work where there is no job, or making them dependent on the government when they could be adding to our country instead of perpetually taking. Instead, give people the reward of work for their money. That ought not to be a bizarre concept. You, who are trying to improve yourself, have the satisfaction of doing something well, of taking control of your life. You can eventually move beyond your situation. You have hope. There is no dishonor in an honest days work.
But alas, it's not conforming to a pathological norm which is so often seen.
Then it becomes necessary to teach lessons which can be understood. If you work you eat. If you work better, you can earn more. That extra you made is because you deserved it, and while we're at it we can teach you things to better yourself. You can have a shot at a decent future, but you must be the one to do it. A social program cannot give self respect. That's very much a carrot and a stick.
That is the "why" of making capable people work. In reality, few people will sit around and starve if they can avoid it. If they would be criminals before working, it's entirely likely that they already are.
I've addressed a couple of your other concerns already such as the sick and disabled. I'm willing to pony up the money to take care of them.
The single parent issue... that's a bit more complicated because how that's handled depends on circumstances. If a parent has a disabled child and is taking care if it, then I'm for helping. How much depends on the particulars. I'd rather pay the mom to stay home with a severely mentally or physically handicapped child than to require her to leave him or her in the hands of someone who doesn't know the particular needs of that individual. To me it's a "suck it up thing", and I mean for us not them.
To go to the other extreme though, I can tell you how to piss off a working poor black woman. Let another on welfare tell her she's going to have another baby. Stand back, seriously.
Vaginas are neither clown cars, nor are they supposed to be a means to get a bigger check. Breeding in poverty breeds poverty, and I'm sorry but that's reality. At some point it has to stop, and some may find this objectionable, but while on medicaid a woman needs to be on birth control, period. IUDs, Depo Provera, whatever. I've heard complaints that it is a restriction on reproductive rights, but what about bringing a child into the world who is wanted mostly because he's an extra shot of money in the check? That's OK? That's pathetic.
Well, even what I proposed were to be enacted today your point about single parents remain. Well, what does everyone else do when they have kids and need money? They find someone else to take care of them. I would support good day care (where we could sneak in good nutrition and care and maybe a bit of education) so the parent could take advantage of the same opportunities others have.
So we have people working. We're still paying them, right? It never ends, right?
I don't think that's correct. The aim is to break the cycle of poverty by creating a work ethic and an appreciation for education over time. If people work and are invested in their own well being and community, then they will take a more active stance against the tragic crimes that happen there. The people themselves become important, not the dependency on a failed system which generates more resignation than inspiration. We can also (seriously this time) invest in people and businesses in areas which show themselves to be making a serious effort. That offers sustainability, and an example to others.
To sum it up, we need to give the fish to those who cannot ever feed themselves and make sure those who can learn to fish for themselves do so, and give them a place to make a good catch.
That's hope and that's change.
Thanks for making that post. I agree on some points, disagree on others. My main disagreement is that a lack of respect for hard work or education isn't a racial issue. There are plenty of poor whites, Hispanics, and individuals of other races who do not value education / hard work. In fact, I'd argue there is a subculture in the Republican party that pretty much disdains anyone who has ever attended college. Academics are rather openly mocked, as if academia wasn't a "real" job in the "real" world. It's a ridiculous assertion. Take five minutes to read the thread about climategate, some people on this forum are basically in glee over something they don't understand. I believe this culture you described is related to socioeconomic status more so than race.
I understand the sentiment behind putting women on birth control, but you have to realize that they all have side effects, some of which are quite serious. In addition, since there is no effective male birth control (aside from a condom) forcing people onto the "pill" or some other form is simply discrimination against women. It takes two people to get pregnant, and too often we ignore the males role. That explains why we have so many single parent homes in the first place.
I think the biggest problem is on a larger cultural level. People in this country are told from day one that if you work hard you will be wealthy. That is patently false. There are plenty of people who work hard, and end up broke. We also breed materialism. Think of the literally thousands of material images you are exposed to each day. Materialism is not a great way to become happy, but we have an entire society built upon it. That's one reason I feel Americans carry so much debt with little relative savings. And to be honest, corporations like it that way. It ensures a steady flow of income.
In a sense we put education on a pedestal as well. Not everyone can get a college education, it's just unrealistic. That shouldn't really matter at the end, because we need hard working individuals at all levels. We need good blue collar workers as well. In my opinion, a high school diploma should be enough to live a reasonable life. Not fantastic, but enough to own a car, a medium size house, and raise a family. If my idea sounds crazy, that's the way it was just 45 years ago. We lost something in the past few decades.
Finally, it would be unfair to ignore the fact that there is ongoing racism/sexism. We might not like it, and it might cause us to roll our eyes because we've been hearing about it for so long, but it still exists.
My point: I can't point a finger at one problem and say its the cause of all the worlds ills. Welfare reform is needed, but even if it happens, it will mean little if other changes don't go along with it.
I like your daycare idea, it's a good one. Welfare to work is a good idea too, so long as it doesn't cut your knees out from under you the second you start to make ends meet. Can government or a social program be created to undo the subculture you described? Probably not, but I wouldn't be so quick to blame that cultures existence on the fact that we have welfare programs in the first place. I think that is a case of seeing the trees and not the forest.
I understand the sentiment behind putting women on birth control, but you have to realize that they all have side effects, some of which are quite serious. In addition, since there is no effective male birth control (aside from a condom) forcing people onto the "pill" or some other form is simply discrimination against women. It takes two people to get pregnant, and too often we ignore the males role. That explains why we have so many single parent homes in the first place.
I think the biggest problem is on a larger cultural level. People in this country are told from day one that if you work hard you will be wealthy. That is patently false. There are plenty of people who work hard, and end up broke. We also breed materialism. Think of the literally thousands of material images you are exposed to each day. Materialism is not a great way to become happy, but we have an entire society built upon it. That's one reason I feel Americans carry so much debt with little relative savings. And to be honest, corporations like it that way. It ensures a steady flow of income.
In a sense we put education on a pedestal as well. Not everyone can get a college education, it's just unrealistic. That shouldn't really matter at the end, because we need hard working individuals at all levels. We need good blue collar workers as well. In my opinion, a high school diploma should be enough to live a reasonable life. Not fantastic, but enough to own a car, a medium size house, and raise a family. If my idea sounds crazy, that's the way it was just 45 years ago. We lost something in the past few decades.
Finally, it would be unfair to ignore the fact that there is ongoing racism/sexism. We might not like it, and it might cause us to roll our eyes because we've been hearing about it for so long, but it still exists.
My point: I can't point a finger at one problem and say its the cause of all the worlds ills. Welfare reform is needed, but even if it happens, it will mean little if other changes don't go along with it.
I like your daycare idea, it's a good one. Welfare to work is a good idea too, so long as it doesn't cut your knees out from under you the second you start to make ends meet. Can government or a social program be created to undo the subculture you described? Probably not, but I wouldn't be so quick to blame that cultures existence on the fact that we have welfare programs in the first place. I think that is a case of seeing the trees and not the forest.
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Unfortunately a lot of people do view vaginas as a means to a bigger government handout.
And while yes there are side effects to being on birth control the chances are small and it is a generally acceptable method of practicing safe sex. I would argue that if they are to get a government handout they should not complain about some strings attached. The evidence already shows that humans cannot be trusted to not abuse the system as it stands. I would also argue that since there is no current, effective male birth control that it isn't discrimination to have to woman do it. It won't happen though. The public outcry would be too much for politician to attempt such a stance.
I do agree that just hard work alone isn't enough to succeed in life - you also have to be smart about your money. It has always surprised me that our standard educational system completely ignores matters of simple money management (including saving/investing/credit fundamentals). We instead rely on parents to impart the knowledge - and I think we have pretty clear proof that a large number of adults have no idea what they are doing when it comes to managing their assets.
I was lucky to have a father who did understand the system and was able to teach me about these things.
What we lost over the last 45 years was the ability to see the reality of living within our means. Both the citizens and the government realized it was way easier to live they way we want now by mortgaging our future and our children's future. We can have the dream today and worry about how to pay for it tomorrow. It is possible to raise a family in a house you own and have a car on a highschool diploma. It just cant be a leased shiny luxury car thats stored in your 4 car garage attached to your 4,000 sqft house that has 3 plasma tvs in it. (But we exepct to be able to live that dream regardless of the effort we put towards it)
Yes there are more problems than just welfare. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it - although if we can fix the social programs and the education system we will go a very long way to improving the situation and I firmly believe the two are intertwined (Easier said than done I know)
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Yep, Pakistan, India, China, and other developing countries realized that if they put a lot more emphasis on education, they could pick themselves up. In fact, they realized that's the ONLY way for them to achieve long term success.
What this article really meant to say was that Detroit did the worst this year teaching to the test. Let's be honest the only reason, say, inner city Baltimore didn't win this year for worst school system is because they were statistically luckier that their teacher all taught to the standardized test better.
SunSamurai
Diamond Member
- Jan 16, 2005
- 3,914
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DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
:thumbsup: Hayabusa
Re: your comment about reproductive rights, etc. - ironically, I don't think that mainly stems from those it would directly affect. I believe that a large opposition to that comes from religious objections.
Re: your comment about reproductive rights, etc. - ironically, I don't think that mainly stems from those it would directly affect. I believe that a large opposition to that comes from religious objections.
yottabit
Golden Member
- Jun 5, 2008
- 1,671
- 874
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Yes a very interesting post... the sense of entitlement that seems to be instilled in so many Americans from birth is what I think the biggest problem is... I'm not sure how it came about , if it is even a byproduct of materialism or consumerism. But people seem to think they deserve things without earning them. The beautiful thing about America is you are guaranteed the right to pursue happiness, however, it is not automatically granted to you.. you are entitled to earn your keep.
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