Lowest math scores in the nation goes to...

[Patranus]

shocker.

 

[OutHouse]

I'm not going to claim it wouldn't help... but that brings up a slew of ethical issues. A Senator in Louisiana (IIRC) suggested something like this a year or two ago, and ended up losing his job because of the public outcry.

yea, sometime the truth hurts and people lash out.

 

[Muse]

Lemme guess... Mississippi.

 

[F1N3ST]

Lemme guess... Mississippi.

Is this a fail or attempt at humor?

 

[Specop 007]

Simple solution. Offer $5000 for any man in Detroit (nationally would be better) who gets a vasectomy. Offer $10K for any woman of child bearing age who gets her tubes tied (more invasive surgery warranting bigger payout). Sliding scale for folks who already parents. Lots of folks who have no business having kids will take the money, saving the taxpayers far more than the cost of the program.

Requiring parental performance bonds would also be good. Fining parents for raising worthless kids might improve things.

Ummm, why not just cut the pay for babies programs altogether?? Is that solution too simple??

 

[werepossum]

I'm at home now so hopefully I'll be able to take the time to give you a response which you may or not agree with, but at least be able to understand.

SNIPPED FOR LENGTH

I don't think that's correct. The aim is to break the cycle of poverty by creating a work ethic and an appreciation for education over time. If people work and are invested in their own well being and community, then they will take a more active stance against the tragic crimes that happen there. The people themselves become important, not the dependency on a failed system which generates more resignation than inspiration. We can also (seriously this time) invest in people and businesses in areas which show themselves to be making a serious effort. That offers sustainability, and an example to others.

To sum it up, we need to give the fish to those who cannot ever feed themselves and make sure those who can learn to fish for themselves do so, and give them a place to make a good catch.

That's hope and that's change.

Excellent, excellent post. Detroit is a very dirty city with a lot of healthy people on welfare. By forcing those people to clean up their own city for their checks we would instill a work ethic in some (perhaps most) as well as instilling basic work skills such as getting up, showing up, and actually doing something, whether basic janitorial work or child care. Hell, just getting them off the street would be good. Even more important, their children would grow up learning that you do something and you get a check for it; from there it's a bridgeable gap toward seeing education as a means of doing something more interesting or at least for a bigger check.

I don't think our problem is the lack of a black middle class - most of the black people I know are solidly middle class - but rather that people on welfare have historically been surrounded by other people on welfare. This is somewhat because it's cheaper to house people in high-occupancy housing developments, but also partially because those of us who earned the money to buy our houses don't want the same thing given to those who don't work. But the net effect is that far too many kids grow up in the welfare environment where the only way to make a bigger check is sell drugs, steal, have extra babies, or double dip with a diagnosis of a learning disorder or similar impairment - the very antithesis of education.

Carmen had a very good point as well, that we need jobs in which a person with a high school education (or less) but who is reasonably sharp and willing to work hard (or not a complete idiot and willing to work very hard) can expect to live a decent, middle class life, the American Dream of a house, kids, a yard and a dog. The extremely high cost of homes in big cities, the outsourcing of manufacturing, and the importation of poor (often illegal) immigrants for manual labor have all combined to doom the hardworking but not educated person to low wages and employment calling on only a small part of his/her potential. We seem to be headed toward a class or caste system with more or less permanent upper and lower strata, which is in my opinion the very worst thing a country could do. To my way of thinking a much more self-contained America - even if it means we don't get to buy as much stuff because of the higher prices - is a much better America.

 

[StageLeft]

Lol, that's in the article.

OMF, comedy gold. Forwarding along.

 

[StageLeft]

Anyway, didn't read much of the thread, but picked up some posts including from Carmen who lives and breathes it.

The schools do only hold so much blame here. It's hard to attract high teaching talent to a bad environment, but more than not the poor structure outside of the school at home with family and peers, it is simply not the same environment most educationally-successful people are brought up in.

Regarding high-school leading to a good job, they still exist. How many people here ever had a trade discussed to them in school? I bet most of you didn't. In my school it was university. You have those who go to university or those who are going to pump gas and get hooked on meth, right? And yet in reality after high school there are a great many good vocations you can do with some extra work, like a diploma or something along those lines. Are plumbers billing less per hour now than 20 years ago? How many plumbers have you seen outsourced to India? And it's virtually impossible to lay brick over the internet or run a backhoe over the phone. But these jobs at least in my school would have been mocked. After all, it must be far more respectful to be pushing papers in some low-entry office job than repairing somebody's roof. Now you won't get rich doing that unless you start a business, but being good at a trade or two is definitely enough income to get you a house and cars and family and the typical middle-class things.

 

[werepossum]

Anyway, didn't read much of the thread, but picked up some posts including from Carmen who lives and breathes it.

The schools do only hold so much blame here. It's hard to attract high teaching talent to a bad environment, but more than not the poor structure outside of the school at home with family and peers, it is simply not the same environment most educationally-successful people are brought up in.

Regarding high-school leading to a good job, they still exist. How many people here ever had a trade discussed to them in school? I bet most of you didn't. In my school it was university. You have those who go to university or those who are going to pump gas and get hooked on meth, right? And yet in reality after high school there are a great many good vocations you can do with some extra work, like a diploma or something along those lines. Are plumbers billing less per hour now than 20 years ago? How many plumbers have you seen outsourced to India? And it's virtually impossible to lay brick over the internet or run a backhoe over the phone. But these jobs at least in my school would have been mocked. After all, it must be far more respectful to be pushing papers in some low-entry office job than repairing somebody's roof. Now you won't get rich doing that unless you start a business, but being good at a trade or two is definitely enough income to get you a house and cars and family and the typical middle-class things.

That's a good point, but outside of the licensed trades most of those jobs are going to illegals or recent legal immigrants and wages are dropping fast. In my area (Chattanooga, Tennessee) the licensed trades (plumbing/steamfitter, HVAC technicians, and electricians) are still very good jobs, but the vast bulk of construction workers now speak Spanish exclusively. Drywallers for example make maybe 60% of what they earned fifteen years ago, and masons aren't much better off. In other areas in which I've done work the licensed trades are similarly reduced, with maybe one licensed bilingual electrician or plumber and a dozen low-paid "helpers" on the job, the vast majority of whom cannot read the notes on the blueprints. Those good jobs still remain, but the quantity of them is continually dropping.

 

[Modelworks]

Regarding high-school leading to a good job, they still exist. How many people here ever had a trade discussed to them in school? I bet most of you didn't. In my school it was university. You have those who go to university or those who are going to pump gas and get hooked on meth, right?

This is one of the reasons why I think they need to start vocational schools at younger ages. Courses like how to lay brick or work construction can be taught starting at ages as young as 13. School is not the place for everyone. This whole politically correct idea that everyone can succeed , everyone wins the race and everyone can become a college graduate is false. People are different , some are not going to be good at math no matter if they spend their life studying it. I couldn't run a marathon if my life depended on it, it is just not what I am capable of doing.

Instead schools should be showing kids how they can make a living once they are adults and then bring in the academics to those that need those skills for the career they have chosen. How many people have said "I took xxxx course , and I have never used any of it or forgotten most of it " ? I took biology courses and can't recall a single thing that course taught me that I use in every day life.

My brother never completed high school, he dropped out in 10th grade. He was dyslexic. The teachers told my mom that he would never do anything but manual labor jobs, that he couldn't learn. He now runs his own business and makes more than I do, and I am the one with the degrees. He cannot do things like write well, but he knows how to handle money, how to buy low and sell high and he does very well.

 

[QuantumPion]

Detroit is what happens when you let liberals run the place for 50 years straight unabated.

 

[Lakedaimon]

I went to a catholic high school in the Detroit suburbs. Tuition was $3k per student back then, and naturally student performance and test scores were miles ahead of Detroit schools which were getting like $7500 in funding per student at the time. So what was the difference? Divine blessing? I doubt it. Strict dress code and a demerit system? Not really. Teachers who could make 60% more money by working at the public high school two blocks away? Nah. That school thrives on its reputation as a college prep powerhouse. Mostly blue collar parents paid a small fortune to send their kids there and expected results. 105 out of 107 students in my class were accepted to a college. The "other" two failed to graduate, one was in a deep depression over the death of his father and the other was groomed to take over the family business and missed at least a day or two each week working at one of the family restaurants.

The rival catholic high school, just a few miles away known for dominant football and basketball teams closed down, its reputation eroded by the emphasis on athletics, and parents began to send their kids to the school I went to instead.

In Detroit, the primary benchmark is attendance. How many bodies can they coax into the school on "count day" the day a couple weeks into the school year where the official attendance is taken that determines how much funding the school gets from the state. So in Detroit they have free pizza, ice cream, and bring in bands and entertainers on that day.

My father knew a retired teacher who started his own business selling textbooks to school districts. Landing a contract with Detroit Public Schools would have been bigger than all his other deals combined - when he went before an administrator to make his pitch the guy had zero interest in the books or materials themselves, he just wanted the salesman to hire his son to a full-time job even though the son would be out of state at college and couldnt actually do any work for him. Thats just how things operated in that district, the kids some second behind funding and kickbacks.

Currently, incoming freshman to a Detroit high school only graduate 4 years later about 25% of the time. So this means 75% either transfer to another district, are held back at least one year, or drop out.

 

[Exterous]

Well, I just learned something today. It seems my wife's school decided to pass a student on to the next grade that had a .5GPA because he was too old to hold back again (He would have been a 17 year old HS freshman). Almost halfway into the year he has a 0.0GPA.

His parents couldn't care less.....

 

[venkman]

I thought this was interesting. Half an hour north of the dreck that is DPS sits the #2 ranked high school in the country. I almost went there for High School, but ended up going to a the regular district school three miles away instead.

http://www.detnews.com/article/2009...demy-named-No.-2-best-public-school-in-nation

 

[Lakedaimon]

I thought this was interesting. Half an hour north of the dreck that is DPS sits the #2 ranked high school in the country. I almost went there for High School, but ended up going to a the regular district school instead.

http://www.detnews.com/article/2009...demy-named-No.-2-best-public-school-in-nation

Just last week there was a local news segment about this school. Turns out that when a district in the area does elect to send a student there, they lose out on their big state funding check, so at least one participating district (Royal Oak) said they would likely stop sending students there, and this could trigger a domino effect that would actually shut down the #2 school in the nation. Awesome.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Anyway, didn't read much of the thread, but picked up some posts including from Carmen who lives and breathes it.

The schools do only hold so much blame here. It's hard to attract high teaching talent to a bad environment, but more than not the poor structure outside of the school at home with family and peers, it is simply not the same environment most educationally-successful people are brought up in.

Regarding high-school leading to a good job, they still exist. How many people here ever had a trade discussed to them in school? I bet most of you didn't. In my school it was university. You have those who go to university or those who are going to pump gas and get hooked on meth, right? And yet in reality after high school there are a great many good vocations you can do with some extra work, like a diploma or something along those lines. Are plumbers billing less per hour now than 20 years ago? How many plumbers have you seen outsourced to India? And it's virtually impossible to lay brick over the internet or run a backhoe over the phone. But these jobs at least in my school would have been mocked. After all, it must be far more respectful to be pushing papers in some low-entry office job than repairing somebody's roof. Now you won't get rich doing that unless you start a business, but being good at a trade or two is definitely enough income to get you a house and cars and family and the typical middle-class things.

Well true a gas attendent may have to use meth or other poor mans drugs , But as we all know the elite uppers use cocain by the tons, Its not a poor mans drug . That why drug testing is done as a piss test . If we did a real effective drug testing be alot of high profile people out of a job . Its just the well off looking down at the poor because they use the Good shit LOL ,. Hell if your going to piss test . No harm in seeing how much hair one has in ones nose thats easy enough don't you think, Yes I smoke pot but not any more Mexico has been good to me.

 

[ericlp]

The academic magnet high school where I grew up was in a poor hispanic area. The idea being that bringing smart teachers and smart students would improve the other students. It worked for about a year, but then the students went back to not caring.

In the regular classes, as long as you show up to class you'll get a C. You don't have to do anything to graduate. How do you motivate students without failing 90% of the class?

What I want to know, is how these kids that go to the community colleges pass? Do they do the same thing? It's pathetic... America has been in the dumps for years... nothing new. No one wants to take math, they all want to be a lawyer... science is uncool these days.

 

[TruePaige]

What I want to know, is how these kids that go to the community colleges pass? Do they do the same thing? It's pathetic... America has been in the dumps for years... nothing new. No one wants to take math, they all want to be a lawyer... science is uncool these days.

What? He didn't say anything about community college.

Just looking for you to clarify what you said.

In Virginia we have strict Accreditation and Guaranteed Acceptance Agreements that ensure our community college system teaches courses that cover the exact material you need for university success. If they don't their agreements that allow you to transfer the courses can be canceled.

 

[ericlp]

What? He didn't say anything about community college.

Just looking for you to clarify what you said.

In Virginia we have strict Accreditation and Guaranteed Acceptance Agreements that ensure our community college system teaches courses that cover the exact material you need for university success. If they don't their agreements that allow you to transfer the courses can be canceled.

Well, he didn't say anything about Virginia...

I was talking about the community colleges in Detroit. Obviously....

 

[CPA]

...but how did they manage to make Robocop?

They may have called it Detroit, but they used the downtown Dallas skyline and other Dallas landmarks in most of the the movie.

 

[Miramonti]

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/12/detroit_students_notch_lowest.html

Sittin there watching the news, see something, felt obligated to post it.

:drumroll:

And the winner is...Detroit! We got the lowest math scores in the nation!

I only live like 15mi from that hellhole. I hate driving through there...

This has become a topic fit for P&N.
-Schadenfroh (AT Mod)

If this is true, how can we trust the counting of the test results to know for certain Detroit is really last?

 

[seemingly random]

Simple solution. Offer $5000 for any man in Detroit (nationally would be better) who gets a vasectomy. Offer $10K for any woman of child bearing age who gets her tubes tied (more invasive surgery warranting bigger payout). Sliding scale for folks who already parents. Lots of folks who have no business having kids will take the money, saving the taxpayers far more than the cost of the program.

Requiring parental performance bonds would also be good. Fining parents for raising worthless kids might improve things.

Interesting idea. Where will I be able to get some gift cards? Can it be available in areas other than detroit?

 

[seemingly random]

Well true a gas attendent may have to use meth or other poor mans drugs , But as we all know the elite uppers use cocain by the tons, Its not a poor mans drug . That why drug testing is done as a piss test . If we did a real effective drug testing be alot of high profile people out of a job . Its just the well off looking down at the poor because they use the Good shit LOL ,. Hell if your going to piss test . No harm in seeing how much hair one has in ones nose thats easy enough don't you think, Yes I smoke pot but not any more Mexico has been good to me.

Cool, you're back. Which one of you is it this time?

 

[TruePaige]

Well, he didn't say anything about Virginia...

I was talking about the community colleges in Detroit. Obviously....

I just used that as an example of how many states have regulations on their community colleges to respond to your comment.

I was just asking why you went into this discussion about community colleges and substandard teacher - student relationships out of nowhere when the post you quoted had absolutely nothing to do with institutes of higher learning who aren't subject to the same attendance based funding etc... that these public schools are.

As far as community colleges in Detroit, you think a lot of these kids are going to one?

 

[Craig234]

San Francisco is what happens when you let liberals run the place for 50 years straight unabated.

Fixed. And Mississippi/Alabama/non-Austin Texas are what happens when you let Republicans run it.

And the Great Depression and 2008 crash are what happen when Libertarians run things/

Absent any government regulation representing the public = wealth concentrating more and more and society being forced to serve those few until you have another third world country.