Looks like no sanctions on Saudi Arabia per Trump

[IronWing]

The House of Saud spreads global terrorism every single day. The Sauds preach the most extreme variant of Islam practiced anywhere and actively subvert more moderate forms through their madrasa system and support of radical groups such as Al Qaeda and ISIS. The House of Saud is attempting to be the single arbitrator of Sunni Islam. Cutting off the Saud's ability to do so would be a small start toward dialing back global tensions.

 

[HomerJS]

So you are a prince again in a culture that doesn't understand why you and I would be upset. He cannot "get it" so any action has a reaction. What price will you bear for punishment? What should be and what can be done without slitting one's throat are going to be two different things. Remember that Saudi Arabia has done nothing new or remarkable. The only difference is that this is a member of the American press. Thousands have been murdered for centuries and we never cared about them or were involved that much. That changed in the late 1930's when oil was discovered and war was looming. From FDR forward every single President knew exactly what Saud was and what they were doing and we did nothing. Every. Single. One. yet we act as if this is some outlandish and new thing when it's a thousand year or more continuation of business as usual in one form or another. Trump should have kept his mouth shut, but he didn't and the worst thing about it all is the realization that Truth is not always Beauty. As often as not it's an ugly bastard no one wants to look at. China and Bush? China was a huge backwater country we could do anything with. The ME is vastly more important than China has been historically.

Trump shitted out a nugget of ugly fact, who we really are when push comes to shove, but Trump still shitted and we'll have to clean up another mess. There was no good purpose in his actions, merely the ramblings of the reprehensible which coincidentally exposed the man behind the curtain for just a moment.

You are ignoring one of the elephants in the room. Trump's stance has given the ok to all dictators around the world murdering dissidents and journalists is fine and there will be no repercussions from the United States. I keep hearing the world is a dangerous place but now POTUS has just made it more dangerous

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You do know that Khashoggi was an American journalist right? And that the apparent motive for his killing was because of his actions as a responsible member of the free press?

Beyond that, this is absolutely a global matter. The world has a duty not to normalize the killing of residents of another country, especially when their job is to promote international transparency, and that's what gets them killed. Beyond that, he was killed at a goddamn consulate which is an international system for the safe conduct of business between nations. The world has an imperative to protect this. Saudi actions threaten the entire world here, and as such America would need to be a leader in this response. That would be the case if, for example, Khashoggi was instead a UK resident working for the Sunday Times.

But far beyond that. Even if this was entirely a matter fully contained within SA, the US does regularly and should continue to consider the private conduct of other nations with regard to our independent business with them. We apply sanctions to countries which violate human rights, and we use their conduct domestically and in foreign affairs to judge their suitability for trade and other international relations.

An analogy: you want to buy a used car off Craigslist. You find what seems to be a great deal on your dream car, right color and everything. So you run Carfax, make the call and everything appears on the up and up. You meet up with the guy for a test drive and things go great. So you make a handshake deal and head to the bank to get a cashier's check. On your way back to the neighborhood, his neighbor flags you down having seen you inspecting the car. He tells you not to buy it and that, although they've never had any actual problem with him, he is a registered sex offender.

What do you do? Are you going to buy the car with no further action because his sex crimes are completely unrelated? I'm not saying it's wrong to buy the car. But I think you would reasonable at that point consider getting more information about the car and the seller or to choose to pass altogether.

Exactly what do you propose that will change how this prince, the next ruler renounces his ways? Sanctions won't do it because making this guy renounce his upbringing, history, and culture isn't going to happen over mere money. These people aren't Trump, they are institutionally hardened and ruthless by nature with the power to match.

You give me a solution being defined as changing Saudi Arabia leadership to our liking, at least with those we consider to be of consequence, and I'll tell you mine which you definitely will not like.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Trump protects trump, who knew?

 

[IronWing]

You give me a solution being defined as changing Saudi Arabia leadership to our liking, at least with those we consider to be of consequence, and I'll tell you mine which you definitely will not like.

My solution is to exterminate the House of Saud, root and branch. I don't see it happening though and since I haven't signed up to do it, I can't ask others to take up the task.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You are ignoring one of the elephants in the room. Trump's stance has given the ok to all dictators around the world murdering dissidents and journalists is fine and there will be no repercussions from the United States. I keep hearing the world is a dangerous place but now POTUS has just made it more dangerous

You seem to be conflating two things. One is the reality of the world regarding the Middle East and the House of Saud in particular. The other is Trump. In no way do I accept how he's handling things, his desire to be an autocrat with the power of life and death, and more.

But how reality works can be handled one of several ways. Pretend that all's well, understand that it's not and come up with balms for our psyche, that is to do something ineffectual and effectively say "take that!", or act to change reality in ways that will not be normally acceptable because that's reality.

Trump? I think I've stated my disapproval sufficiently.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

My solution is to exterminate the House of Saud, root and branch. I don't see it happening though and since I haven't signed up to do it, I can't ask others to take up the task.

Then we have another and worse power vacuum by orders of magnitude than removing Saddam, creating the instability that the world cannot deal with. Look how well things went after the Ottoman Empire folded with British interference, or Iran today after Operation Ajax.

But you aren't entirely off the mark. What works is quiet intimidation by shed blood. It's not right, it's not humane, it's not anything noble, quite the reverse.

Here's my ruthless but I think effective immoral suggestion and that is to drop a horse's head in the prince's bed, so to speak. I am confident we know precisely who is in favor and who is not in the hierarchy. Pick someone not closely related the highest level, but second tier people who would be high enough to be noticed. Kill all the males in the immediate family but keep our fingerprints off things. Rinse, repeat every time something like this rears its head. Saud may not understand the immorality of murder but they do the veiled fist of power. Fear is the only motivator that will get the desired effect.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

This would have been so much better without her history on Assad and Syria.

 

[fskimospy]

My solution is to exterminate the House of Saud, root and branch. I don't see it happening though and since I haven't signed up to do it, I can't ask others to take up the task.

I think there might be a lesson in our recent past about what happens when you decapitate the repressive leadership of a Middle Eastern country.

The Saudis are evil people who we should distance ourselves from as much as possible and Saudi Arabia should absolutely be on the sanctions list several times over. I for one don't want to put us or their people on the hook for whatever comes out of overthrowing them though.

 

[interchange]

Exactly what do you propose that will change how this prince, the next ruler renounces his ways? Sanctions won't do it because making this guy renounce his upbringing, history, and culture isn't going to happen over mere money. These people aren't Trump, they are institutionally hardened and ruthless by nature with the power to match.

You give me a solution being defined as changing Saudi Arabia leadership to our liking, at least with those we consider to be of consequence, and I'll tell you mine which you definitely will not like.

My proposed response to this

Exactly what do you propose that will change how this prince, the next ruler renounces his ways? Sanctions won't do it because making this guy renounce his upbringing, history, and culture isn't going to happen over mere money. These people aren't Trump, they are institutionally hardened and ruthless by nature with the power to match.

You give me a solution being defined as changing Saudi Arabia leadership to our liking, at least with those we consider to be of consequence, and I'll tell you mine which you definitely will not like.

My proposed response is here: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...-saudi-arabia-per-trump.2557137/post-39655475

However, I do not seek to change their culture. Should that happen as a result of international relations, it will be because they have learned that doing things differently is correct. I would seek to change their behavior, but I would not measure the success of my intervention based on that aim. Whether they act differently because it is profitable to do so despite their culture is and should be entirely at their whim. However, we can establish and enforce as a collective international community what the boundaries for behavior are in order to engage in international partnerships. For that to mean anything, the boundaries must be enforced. Regardless of whether that is met with behavioral response on the part of SA, it will help our relationship with our cooperative allies especially if the response includes a significant element of multilateral partnership.

There exists a scenario where SA remains aggressive and continues to violate boundaries that are enforced with consequences to the extent that their behavior and military and economic influence is a regional and global threat that warrants military intervention i.e. war. And neither should that carry expectation of changing culture. It should only be done to defuse power and with awareness that power will be redistributed in ways we also won't like much as a result.

 

[HomerJS]

You seem to be conflating two things. One is the reality of the world regarding the Middle East and the House of Saud in particular. The other is Trump. In no way do I accept how he's handling things, his desire to be an autocrat with the power of life and death, and more.

But how reality works can be handled one of several ways. Pretend that all's well, understand that it's not and come up with balms for our psyche, that is to do something ineffectual and effectively say "take that!", or act to change reality in ways that will not be normally acceptable because that's reality.

Trump? I think I've stated my disapproval sufficiently.

These two things are already conflated. How we respond is intertwined with this entire mess and its the job of the President to navigate. This guy is totally over his head and has no moral compass so he can only make things worse. Not only that SA funds to many of his projects so he doesn't want to do anything less that income stream dries up. More of the Trump effect.

How about this for starters? Stop the war on getting off fossil fuels. No more fucking "drill baby drill". A moon landing like effort to develop alternate sources of energy and its infrastructure. I'm sure we could start a G like conference of nations willing to work with us.

Yes near term we are still dependent on fossil fuels but long term as more sources are mainstreamed and promoted oil prices continue to fall and countries like SA get less and less money.

BTW - Don't fool yourself with the culture thing. Where do you think people like MBS are educated? That guy is as westernized as anyone over there. Falling back on culture is a way to maintain control.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

My personal opinion: we should back out of the Saudi arms deal. I think that would not make enemies, as the deal was something the US had previously not wanted to do over human rights concerns, and we still maintained a strategic alliance.

I think further action needs to be coordinated with our Western allies, perhaps through NATO and/or the UN. There needs to be a coordinated global response for the damage they have done to trust in international relationships. The only way to repair it is through strengthening the bond of nations who support transparency, open markets, human rights, and sovereignty of consulates. I imagine the response would be a multilateral sanctions agreement.

We should end arms trading. The rest will make us feel better about ourselves and all this will soon be forgotten.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

How about this for starters? Stop the war on getting off fossil fuels. No more fucking "drill baby drill". A moon landing like effort to develop alternate sources of energy and its infrastructure. I'm sure we could start a G like conference of nations willing to work with us.

Yep. I've been advocating for something similar for 45 years.

 

[JSt0rm]

The House of Saud spreads global terrorism every single day. The Sauds preach the most extreme variant of Islam practiced anywhere and actively subvert more moderate forms through their madrasa system and support of radical groups such as Al Qaeda and ISIS. The House of Saud is attempting to be the single arbitrator of Sunni Islam. Cutting off the Saud's ability to do so would be a small start toward dialing back global tensions.

no money in that.

 

[Jhhnn]

BTW - Don't fool yourself with the culture thing. Where do you think people like MBS are educated? That guy is as westernized as anyone over there. Falling back on culture is a way to maintain control.

Unlike some in the family, MBS is not Western educated. He's a graduate of King Saud university.

 

[VRAMdemon]

From two years ago. Was Khashogghi banned from Saudi Arabia for criticizing the government?, or was he was banned for criticizing Trump?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...criticising-us-president-elect-a7456956.html?

 

[Jaskalas]

This is a false choice.

Maybe I even agree with you, but it would take a very well organized plan for the United States to exit from the Middle East and not suffer for it.

I don't know if our country is capable of making such a strategic pivot.

 

[kage69]

Yeah no big deal here.

After all, America doesn't produce much energy, and tech from China and Russia is perfectly compatible with the billions in hardware they've been acquiring since Obama was in office.

Once again, the cheerleader in chief of Team Treason sides with a dictator over Our People. Disgusts me in a way few things do.

 

[HomerJS]

From two years ago. Was Khashogghi banned from Saudi Arabia for criticizing the government?, or was he was banned for criticizing Trump?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...criticising-us-president-elect-a7456956.html?

We know the so called "enemy of the state" was an advisor to the Saudi royal family

 

[Jhhnn]

We know the so called "enemy of the state" was an advisor to the Saudi royal family

A different faction within the royal family now out of power. MBS' father, the current King, suffers from alzheimer's, so MBS does what he wants & controls all access to the King. He's been quite thuggish in consolidating power, still has some of his rivals & other wealthy Saudis locked up in the Ritz Carleton, sweating the cash out of them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d88a5ce9e19_story.html?utm_term=.eab59658028b

The great thing about anybody accusing anybody of corruption in the royal family is that it's all true. They're all corrupt. It's a feature of monarchies in general.

Should he become King, MBS will be the first of Saud's grandsons to do so. It changes the power dynamic considerably. Time will tell, but killing Kashoggi may well have set other powers in the Kingdom against him. It was arrogant, stupid & clumsy, something that discredits them all.

OTOH, MBS could have anybody put to the sword by royal decree. Donald is so jealous.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Gonna give trump a pass on this one. We didn't do shit to the saudi's after 9/11, a single reporter isn't even a blip on the radar at this point.
trump is hands down the worst president to ever hold the office, but we've been coddling the saudi's for decades now, and we know trump prefers dictators, fascists, etc. So his saudi love comes by honestly, disgusting, but honestly.

 

[Indus]

What's to be expected from President Saudi Bitch?

 

[sportage]

Poetic justice.....
Imagine.... Donald Trump captured by the Saudis, his balls placed in a vice, and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman turning the screw.
Ok, ok I know.... what balls?
Well then, his hair.

 

[Jaskalas]

Well then, his hair.

But its a wig?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

But its a wig?

it's 'his' hair, like it's his teeth or his orange complexion