Looks like no sanctions on Saudi Arabia per Trump

[ivwshane]

This whole incident is a great way for Russia to break the United States from its only "true ally" in the Middle East. If you want to shift the balance of the world, stuff like this is it.

Who benefits if we lose the Middle East? Saudi Arabia's BS places us between the hard place and the rock, but we've no good choices for keeping our access to that region. We either go through the Saudis, or we go through Russia and its proxies. What do you think Dems, you want us to hand the Middle East to Russia?

Sure why not.

 

[HomerJS]

I don't like this any more than any one else, but I really don't understand what the anti-Trump'ers think we should do here. While I'm not fan of Saudi Arabia I don't think making enemies of the home of wasabi islam is a great idea either.

Really? Trump can scream at our allies but dictators are murdering US residents, nothing to see and move along? Not only that but Trump is parroting Saudi propaganda. Any excuses for that?

We sanction 17 Saudi's and do not include MBS? Are you pretending to be ignorant??

How about applying the Magnitsky Act to MBS for starters? Putting all contracts with the Saudi's on hold? Expelling the Saudi ambassador? Just for starters

I guess maintaining American values means nothing to you.

 

[HomerJS]

From what I understand we now do export oil, and I don't know that we should, but we should use our resources to move away from OPEC. But, the Saudis have a lot of money. To me this isn't a Trump or partisan issue, both Democrats and Republicans have happily cashed Saudi checks.

I don't know of any Democrats the Saudis are paying 50 million for their condos or financing 666 Park Ave.

Having said that Presidents have been playing footsie with those fucks for too long. Did we learn nothing after 9/11? However Trump has become their spokesperson.

 

[Viper1j]

I'm not sure how involved we should be in this. This is really a problem between two countries, neither of which are America. We should be hands off here.

You have issues..

He was an American RESIDENT. (aka "Green Card") as well as working for an American news outlet.

It would be no different if it had happened to your green card carrying Russian boyfriend while he was visiting Turkey

 

[interchange]

I'm not sure how involved we should be in this. This is really a problem between two countries, neither of which are America. We should be hands off here.

You do know that Khashoggi was an American journalist right? And that the apparent motive for his killing was because of his actions as a responsible member of the free press?

Beyond that, this is absolutely a global matter. The world has a duty not to normalize the killing of residents of another country, especially when their job is to promote international transparency, and that's what gets them killed. Beyond that, he was killed at a goddamn consulate which is an international system for the safe conduct of business between nations. The world has an imperative to protect this. Saudi actions threaten the entire world here, and as such America would need to be a leader in this response. That would be the case if, for example, Khashoggi was instead a UK resident working for the Sunday Times.

But far beyond that. Even if this was entirely a matter fully contained within SA, the US does regularly and should continue to consider the private conduct of other nations with regard to our independent business with them. We apply sanctions to countries which violate human rights, and we use their conduct domestically and in foreign affairs to judge their suitability for trade and other international relations.

An analogy: you want to buy a used car off Craigslist. You find what seems to be a great deal on your dream car, right color and everything. So you run Carfax, make the call and everything appears on the up and up. You meet up with the guy for a test drive and things go great. So you make a handshake deal and head to the bank to get a cashier's check. On your way back to the neighborhood, his neighbor flags you down having seen you inspecting the car. He tells you not to buy it and that, although they've never had any actual problem with him, he is a registered sex offender.

What do you do? Are you going to buy the car with no further action because his sex crimes are completely unrelated? I'm not saying it's wrong to buy the car. But I think you would reasonable at that point consider getting more information about the car and the seller or to choose to pass altogether.

 

[interchange]

I don't like this any more than any one else, but I really don't understand what the anti-Trump'ers think we should do here. While I'm not fan of Saudi Arabia I don't think making enemies of the home of wasabi islam is a great idea either.

My personal opinion: we should back out of the Saudi arms deal. I think that would not make enemies, as the deal was something the US had previously not wanted to do over human rights concerns, and we still maintained a strategic alliance.

I think further action needs to be coordinated with our Western allies, perhaps through NATO and/or the UN. There needs to be a coordinated global response for the damage they have done to trust in international relationships. The only way to repair it is through strengthening the bond of nations who support transparency, open markets, human rights, and sovereignty of consulates. I imagine the response would be a multilateral sanctions agreement.

 

[IronWing]

This whole incident is a great way for Russia to break the United States from its only "true ally" in the Middle East. If you want to shift the balance of the world, stuff like this is it.

Who benefits if we lose the Middle East? Saudi Arabia's BS places us between the hard place and the rock, but we've no good choices for keeping our access to that region. We either go through the Saudis, or we go through Russia and its proxies. What do you think Dems, you want us to hand the Middle East to Russia?

True allies don't murder three thousand Americans and spread anti-western theology across the globe. Sauds do that.

 

[K1052]

This whole incident is a great way for Russia to break the United States from its only "true ally" in the Middle East. If you want to shift the balance of the world, stuff like this is it.

Who benefits if we lose the Middle East? Saudi Arabia's BS places us between the hard place and the rock, but we've no good choices for keeping our access to that region. We either go through the Saudis, or we go through Russia and its proxies. What do you think Dems, you want us to hand the Middle East to Russia?

This is a false choice.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Agreed. The sooner we can decouple from M.E. oil the better. Stop wasting money on rebuilding countries and use that to develop sustainable fossil fuel alternatives.

That was the obvious 45 years ago and was Carter's plan. Ron R decided to screw the US future for money being the good Republican he was and killed Carter's initiatives. We're decades behind as a consequence. Making the ME irrelevant economically and politically should have been THE foreign policy goal since the oil embargo. Nope, we don't think ahead.

Regarding Trump, he's a bumbling idiot who inelegantly spoke the ugly truth. We've had the same policy more or less in place for 70 years. All Presidents have looked the other way but the public didn't want to see ugly, they wanted cheap gas. Likely 9/11 and terrorism from the region would have been nothing but wild imaginings and climate change problems not be an issue, but again we don't look beyond our collective noses. Hillary, Obama, Bush and on and on would have spoken harshly and done pretty the same, nothing, as Trump is now. Saudi offers a pro-US presence in an important region we cannot afford to let collapse.

Reminds me of this old but applicable proverb.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

 

[sonoma1993]

I wonder what President Trump response would have been to Saudi Arabia if this was journalist from a news organization that favor and supported him?

 

[K1052]

Regarding Trump, he's a bumbling idiot who inelegantly spoke the ugly truth. We've had the same policy more or less in place for 70 years. All Presidents have looked the other way but the public didn't want to see ugly, they wanted cheap gas. Likely 9/11 and terrorism from the region would have been nothing but wild imaginings and climate change problems not be an issue, but again we don't look beyond our collective noses. Hillary, Obama, Bush and on and on would have spoken harshly and done pretty the same, nothing, as Trump is now. Saudi offers a pro-US presence in an important region we cannot afford to let collapse.

Some more so than others. There are limits in everything and I could easily see a Hillary presidency taking a more active role to oust MBS. He's not essential to the relationship between the US and KSA by any measure, they've got a ton of princes.The US-Saudi relationship was a lot frostier during the Obama years since he didn't simply roll over for them every single time even though he maintained the alliance.

 

[K1052]

I wonder what President Trump response would have been to Saudi Arabia if this was journalist from a news organization that favor and supported him?

Probably about the same.

He is utterly incapable of caring about anyone except himself. His use for others is entirely limited by their utility for what he wants.

 

[1prophet]

Regarding Trump, he's a bumbling idiot who inelegantly spoke the ugly truth. We've had the same policy more or less in place for 70 years. All Presidents have looked the other way but the public didn't want to see ugly, they wanted cheap gas. Likely 9/11 and terrorism from the region would have been nothing but wild imaginings and climate change problems not be an issue, but again we don't look beyond our collective noses. Hillary, Obama, Bush and on and on would have spoken harshly and done pretty the same, nothing, as Trump is now. Saudi offers a pro-US presence in an important region we cannot afford to let collapse.

This, virtue signaling is easy, making the necessary sacrifices when it comes to making a better world is next to impossible for the "me first mentality" that is dominant in America today.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Did Trump actually write the statement?...That's an official White House communication? What a fucking disgrace. The fact that it's an official release of the White House makes it so much worse. How did his communications staff put this up on the website? At least have an intern take out the exclamation points, ffs. I'm beginning to suspect his communication team has absolutely zero fucks left to give.

Trump is basically saying that if the Saudis keep the price of oil down they can kill whoever they want.

The tough guy don't mess with me President reveals himself to be a whimpering child in the face of CIA reports that MBS ordered this murder. "Maybe he did maybe he didn't" says a dizzy Trump. Of course we shouldn't trouble ourselves with such human rights and assassination by autocrat. We have weapons to sell and oil to buy. In addition, as Trump put it in 2015 - : "They pay me millions of dollars for apartments, okay!, I like that!"

Plus, lets face it Trump praises the "strength" of these authoritarian strongmen. He poo-poos Putin's murder of journalists, admires autocrats and considers America's legacy of protecting human rights a weakness. Trumps larger trend of befriending autocrats - from MBS to Duterte to Putin to Kim. This is not an inconsequential turn of events because by striking these kinds of unholy alliances, it's not just that the United States is expanding its sphere of influence into their countries; they're simultaneously allowing autocrats to influence ours - those consequences cannot be foreseen.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Your move Lindsay

"Graham said he doesn’t want to let the individuals who carried out the killing to become “the fall guy,” but instead, “I am going to do whatever I can to place blame where I believe it lies: I am going to put it at the feet of the crown prince who has been a destructive force in the Mideast.”

He just said that the other day, so we'll see if he will actually stand up to Trump instead of backtracking like the sycophant enabler that he is.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Some more so than others. There are limits in everything and I could easily see a Hillary presidency taking a more active role to oust MBS. He's not essential to the relationship between the US and KSA by any measure, they've got a ton of princes.The US-Saudi relationship was a lot frostier during the Obama years since he didn't simply roll over for them every single time even though he maintained the alliance.

Meddling in Saudi Arabia would be tantamount to regime change. Look how that worked with Iran. I don't like what happened at all but the reaction we get is one of American Imperialistic tendencies, a fool's approach. IMO the best approach is to go back to Carter's approach of new energy investments. As technology advanced in general we may not be more than two or three decades from where we should be. Of course, we've funded terrorism as a natural consequence of neglect, but there's nothing for it.

Societies and governments are not always like the US, in fact, the ME is alien culturally and our attempts to view the region as "little Americans in the making" with ideas of "freedom" and "democracy" never work. The interconnectedness of chaos exists which allows for an upside-down pyramid balanced on a point with blocks of nations and tribes moving around internally and yet it remains against the laws of political thermodynamics, upright. Note the word "internally". Once other nations become involved outside of their "system"? We topple Iran, we invade Afghanistan and Iraq in it never, ever, ends up being favorable to the western world.

Consequently, the crown prince would be immune if it were Obama or Hillary. Window dressing and token sanctions would be the result with harsh words to placate us and that is really the difference between Trump and others. He doesn't care and won't act. Hillary would care, talk a lot, give harmless penalties because we need the Saudis period. Perhaps it's useful to understand that culturally it is not the crime but the shame that getting caught brings.

The only solution is one that is less satisfactory than back in Carter's day and that is to make the ME economically and therefore politically less relevant. At that point, we may have more options. For now? Sell the Saudi's what they need not what they want. Trump will lie about everything but he has brought some truth to our longstanding relationships with ME powers.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This, virtue signaling is easy, making the necessary sacrifices when it comes to making a better world is next to impossible for the "me first mentality" that is dominant in America today.

"The necessary sacrifices". That means someone else dies for our gas.

 

[VRAMdemon]

That was the obvious 45 years ago and was Carter's plan. Ron R decided to screw the US future for money being the good Republican he was and killed Carter's initiatives. We're decades behind as a consequence. Making the ME irrelevant economically and politically should have been THE foreign policy goal since the oil embargo. Nope, we don't think ahead.

Regarding Trump, he's a bumbling idiot who inelegantly spoke the ugly truth. We've had the same policy more or less in place for 70 years. All Presidents have looked the other way but the public didn't want to see ugly, they wanted cheap gas. Likely 9/11 and terrorism from the region would have been nothing but wild imaginings and climate change problems not be an issue, but again we don't look beyond our collective noses. Hillary, Obama, Bush and on and on would have spoken harshly and done pretty the same, nothing, as Trump is now. Saudi offers a pro-US presence in an important region we cannot afford to let collapse.

Reminds me of this old but applicable proverb.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

I agree with this assessment, for the most part..still, Trump's statement has a translation

Translation.

But the U.S. president — facing pressure after Republican losses in the midterm elections — is eager to tamp down threats to the economy, including higher gas prices. In a series of tweets, Trump blamed a stock market sell-off on the Democratic victory while pressing the Saudis and OPEC to keep oil production at current levels.

“Hopefully, Saudi Arabia and OPEC will not be cutting oil production. Oil prices should be much lower based on supply!” Trump said on Twitter.

Trump posted the message hours after Saudi Arabia’s energy minister said that OPEC and its allies should reverse about half the increase in oil output they made earlier this year. Oil futures had gained as much as 2.4 percent in London and 1.8 percent in New York after the Saudi announcement.

Oil futures in New York fell 0.4 percent Monday, extending a record 11th day of declines, to end the session at $59.93 a barrel.

Trump risks testing Saudi patience — or even provoking the kingdom’s ire — at a particularly vulnerable moment, with the U.S. decision to reimpose sanctions on Iran threatening to increase prices. The administration had been counting on Saudi Arabia to ensure oil supply to prevent a run-up in prices.

His weakness for money, power and popularity "Trumps" all

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I agree with this assessment, for the most part..still, Trump's statement has a translation

Translation.



His weakness for money, power and popularity "Trumps" all

There's no mitigation of what Trump is or what he represents however there is some sadly useful things to learn besides Trump and his ilk. It allows the blinders to drop to an even larger and more pervasive ugly reality and we need to see what "we" are or else there is no real change worth having.

 

[K1052]

Meddling in Saudi Arabia would be tantamount to regime change. Look how that worked with Iran. I don't like what happened at all but the reaction we get is one of American Imperialistic tendencies, a fool's approach. IMO the best approach is to go back to Carter's approach of new energy investments. As technology advanced in general we may not be more than two or three decades from where we should be. Of course, we've funded terrorism as a natural consequence of neglect, but there's nothing for it.

Societies and governments are not always like the US, in fact, the ME is alien culturally and our attempts to view the region as "little Americans in the making" with ideas of "freedom" and "democracy" never work. The interconnectedness of chaos exists which allows for an upside-down pyramid balanced on a point with blocks of nations and tribes moving around internally and yet it remains against the laws of political thermodynamics, upright. Note the word "internally". Once other nations become involved outside of their "system"? We topple Iran, we invade Afghanistan and Iraq in it never, ever, ends up being favorable to the western world.

Consequently, the crown prince would be immune if it were Obama or Hillary. Window dressing and token sanctions would be the result with harsh words to placate us and that is really the difference between Trump and others. He doesn't care and won't act. Hillary would care, talk a lot, give harmless penalties because we need the Saudis period. Perhaps it's useful to understand that culturally it is not the crime but the shame that getting caught brings.

The only solution is one that is less satisfactory than back in Carter's day and that is to make the ME economically and therefore politically less relevant. At that point, we may have more options. For now? Sell the Saudi's what they need not what they want. Trump will lie about everything but he has brought some truth to our longstanding relationships with ME powers.

No, it's not regime change to get them to alter their course. Its diplomacy. Restoring a more moderate tack to KSA's foreign interactions by pushing back would accomplish this aim. MBS would not have been able to consolidate power like he did without US help (Trump even explicitly endorsed him, Kushner likely slipped him US intel).

I don't think that making KSA like America is remotely possible or should be attempted. We can however contain some of their stupid murderous bullshit.

 

[HomerJS]

Meddling in Saudi Arabia would be tantamount to regime change. Look how that worked with Iran. I don't like what happened at all but the reaction we get is one of American Imperialistic tendencies, a fool's approach. IMO the best approach is to go back to Carter's approach of new energy investments. As technology advanced in general we may not be more than two or three decades from where we should be. Of course, we've funded terrorism as a natural consequence of neglect, but there's nothing for it.

Societies and governments are not always like the US, in fact, the ME is alien culturally and our attempts to view the region as "little Americans in the making" with ideas of "freedom" and "democracy" never work. The interconnectedness of chaos exists which allows for an upside-down pyramid balanced on a point with blocks of nations and tribes moving around internally and yet it remains against the laws of political thermodynamics, upright. Note the word "internally". Once other nations become involved outside of their "system"? We topple Iran, we invade Afghanistan and Iraq in it never, ever, ends up being favorable to the western world.

Consequently, the crown prince would be immune if it were Obama or Hillary. Window dressing and token sanctions would be the result with harsh words to placate us and that is really the difference between Trump and others. He doesn't care and won't act. Hillary would care, talk a lot, give harmless penalties because we need the Saudis period. Perhaps it's useful to understand that culturally it is not the crime but the shame that getting caught brings.

The only solution is one that is less satisfactory than back in Carter's day and that is to make the ME economically and therefore politically less relevant. At that point, we may have more options. For now? Sell the Saudi's what they need not what they want. Trump will lie about everything but he has brought some truth to our longstanding relationships with ME powers.

As someone pointed out earlier the much maligned Jimmy Carter tried to take away a lot of Saudi Arabia energy influence and was castigated by the right for it.

I agree the simple act of taking out MBS can have unintended consequences but becoming a mouthpiece for MBS is completely irresponsible if not outright treasonous. Trump time and time again takes the side of dictators over our own country

We need to do the following
isolate
rebuke
punish
enact policies to push SA to economic irrelevance

At the same time behind the scenes continue working with them towards further reform. Example there is an upcoming G20 summit. All the world leaders should treat MBS like he doesn't exist.

I'm convinced Obama, Clinton or either Bush would have taken significant action. In fact Bush Sr. gave a roadmap on a way to deal with this kind of thing. Take a read...
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/...ter-tiananmen-square-model-trump-saudi-arabia

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No, it's not regime change to get them to alter their course. Its diplomacy. Restoring a more moderate tack to KSA's foreign interactions by pushing back would accomplish this aim. MBS would not have been able to consolidate power like he did without US help (Trump even explicitly endorsed him, Kushner likely slipped him US intel).

I don't think that making KSA like America is remotely possible or should be attempted. We can however contain some of their stupid murderous bullshit.

I'm all ears for a plan that won't backfire. The family has to be propped up and forcing this ass out will be an unacceptable loss of face which is far greater than committing a crime in almost all ME culture.

What do you have and exactly what price does it exact from the West because there will be one.

 

[VRAMdemon]

I'm all ears for a plan that won't backfire. The family has to be propped up and forcing this ass out will be an unacceptable loss of face which is far greater than committing a crime in almost all ME culture.

What do you have and exactly what price does it exact from the West because there will be one.

I dunno, the only direct "price" I can see is higher gas prices. Are the Saudi's really a "deterent" to the "boogyman" Iran. They have been using our weapons to slaughter the people of Yemen. Screw them. There needs to be punishment for this murder. And unless someone in congress shows some balls, no punishment will happen.

What's even more dangerous is that he's trying communicate to people on a daily basis that facts don't matter. And if facts don't matter, if truth doesn't really exist (or if the truth can't be known), then there's no need for a free press - because information and truth itself aren't of use to us. It all goes hand-in-hand with his authoritarian tendencies.

The message of an autocrat is "Listen up, people. You guys elected me to fix all your problems, right? Well I can fix it all for ya, but we gotta get rid of these stupid little rules (that you call checks and balances, liberties and civil rights), and you just gotta trust me on this one." And by 'trust me', it necessarily request blind trust, loyalty and obedience.

If you want an example of Trump's treatment of truth and information, look at his statement on Kashoggi.

“It could very well be that the crown prince had knowledge of this tragic event — maybe he did and maybe he didn’t!”

Authoritarians of the modern age don't necessarily try to hide the facts anymore; they instead try to downplay their importance. Modern autocracy doesn't begin with tanks rolling into town; it begins most likely with consent of the people in a democratic society. That consent begins with taking things that were once outrageous, and conditioning people to accept them so that they're not so outrageous anymore. People get used to outrage - outrage becomes normal. If he succeeds in conditioning people to accept outrage, then we don't need a free press. We don't need them covering the White House because we become desensitized to the truth gap. If we can accept that truth doesn't matter, if we can accept that certain democratic values don't matter, we can very easily accept Trumps strongman dream of the abolition of a free press.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As someone pointed out earlier the much maligned Jimmy Carter tried to take away a lot of Saudi Arabia energy influence and was castigated by the right for it.

I agree the simple act of taking out MBS can have unintended consequences but becoming a mouthpiece for MBS is completely irresponsible if not outright treasonous. Trump time and time again takes the side of dictators over our own country

We need to do the following
isolate
rebuke
punish
enact policies to push SA to economic irrelevance

At the same time behind the scenes continue working with them towards further reform. Example there is an upcoming G20 summit. All the world leaders should treat MBS like he doesn't exist.

I'm convinced Obama, Clinton or either Bush would have taken significant action. In fact Bush Sr. gave a roadmap on a way to deal with this kind of thing. Take a read...
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/...ter-tiananmen-square-model-trump-saudi-arabia

So you are a prince again in a culture that doesn't understand why you and I would be upset. He cannot "get it" so any action has a reaction. What price will you bear for punishment? What should be and what can be done without slitting one's throat are going to be two different things. Remember that Saudi Arabia has done nothing new or remarkable. The only difference is that this is a member of the American press. Thousands have been murdered for centuries and we never cared about them or were involved that much. That changed in the late 1930's when oil was discovered and war was looming. From FDR forward every single President knew exactly what Saud was and what they were doing and we did nothing. Every. Single. One. yet we act as if this is some outlandish and new thing when it's a thousand year or more continuation of business as usual in one form or another. Trump should have kept his mouth shut, but he didn't and the worst thing about it all is the realization that Truth is not always Beauty. As often as not it's an ugly bastard no one wants to look at. China and Bush? China was a huge backwater country we could do anything with. The ME is vastly more important than China has been historically.

Trump shitted out a nugget of ugly fact, who we really are when push comes to shove, but Trump still shitted and we'll have to clean up another mess. There was no good purpose in his actions, merely the ramblings of the reprehensible which coincidentally exposed the man behind the curtain for just a moment.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I dunno, the only direct "price" I can see is higher gas prices. Are the Saudi's really a "deterent" to the "boogyman" Iran. They have been using our weapons to slaughter the people of Yemen. Screw them. There needs to be punishment for this murder. And unless someone in congress shows some balls, no punishment will happen.

I think you vastly underestimate the ME in world global politics. Events in the ME are likely to be the most proximal to the next world war whatever that looks like. Higher gas prices? Sure. If the region collapses as it's so unstable, what level of resultant global terrorism are you willing to accept? A Greater Depression? Millions dead as a natural consequence?

You and others are thinking in American and Western cultural values and being part of that I agree that this killing was wrong just like a violent and powerful gang murdering someone. Go ahead and finger them for the police and proudly stand on the corner and announce where your family lives. Start thinking in those terms.

Solutions? Probably, but you probably won't like them and the results.