londons burning

[SMOGZINN]

Agreed, we aren't going to be meeting these rioters demands any time soon, most of which would be no laws, and lawless chaos and free TV's for everyone.

You don't give them what they ask for, they are frankly to poorly educated to know what they need. You give them what they really need, meaninful work that pays well enough for them to be comfortable and have a little pride.

It's nice to think of it that way, because everyone likes to believe they are smarter and more civilized than those "other people." This is evident in your statement where you completely misdiagnose the issue of rioting.

Riots are a symptom of hopelessness and powerlessness. These are people who have been stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system and are upset. Because they are undereducated (which comes with being stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system), the riots don't have a real direction or target and that's why looting, burning breaks out. They have nothing to lose, no stake in their communities, and have been disenfranchised by the rest of their society.

I don't condone looting or anything like that, but the media message that rioters are "anarchists, punks, ne'er-do-wells, idiots, etc. that want to smash and steal" is just laughably, depressingly, naive and will only serve to perpetuate the environment that creates riots like this to begin with.

This, so much of this!

 

[HAL9000]

You don't give them what they ask for, they are frankly to poorly educated to know what they need. You give them what they really need, meaninful work that pays well enough for them to be comfortable and have a little pride.

Quite true, which is why we have such fantastic institutions set up to help them do just that. JCP (Job Centre Plus) will give them training, money, education and help them find a job, if they want it.

 

[RabidMongoose]

It can seem like whatever you like to you, it can seem like a huge garden party to you, the fact of the matter is, these people are committing crimes because they think it's fun, they are stealing because they want to, they have no political agenda, they aren't targeting their crimes at any where in particular, they have never spoken out, they have never said anything in anyway to every suggest they are doing this for any other reason other than they want to, they say they want to do it to piss off the police, or to get free stuff, or for fun.

That.

Is.

All.

That is just too simplistic and childish of an explanation. If you don't think that these people have any social or political grievances, then there's not much else to say. You think that they are just completely one-dimensional, which is pretty simplistic.

The reality is that you likely are gaining from the current political and social climate. They obviously feel as if they are not gaining from the current political and social climate that you are currently enjoying. This protest is them expressing their frustration. Sure, it would be great if some people weren't looting, but to say that there is no political or social issue for people involved in this civil unrest is just such a childish position. Life is not that simple.

 

[RabidMongoose]

It's nice to think of it that way, because everyone likes to believe they are smarter and more civilized than those "other people." This is evident in your statement where you completely misdiagnose the issue of rioting.

Riots are a symptom of hopelessness and powerlessness. These are people who have been stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system and are upset. Because they are undereducated (which comes with being stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system), the riots don't have a real direction or target and that's why looting, burning breaks out. They have nothing to lose, no stake in their communities, and have been disenfranchised by the rest of their society.

I don't condone looting or anything like that, but the media message that rioters are "anarchists, punks, ne'er-do-wells, idiots, etc. that want to smash and steal" is just laughably, depressingly, naive and will only serve to perpetuate the environment that creates riots like this to begin with.

Excellent post.

 

[HAL9000]

That is just too simplistic and childish of an explanation. If you don't think that these people have any social or political grievances, then there's not much else to say. You think that they are just completely one-dimensional, which is pretty simplistic.

The reality is that you likely are gaining from the current political and social climate. They obviously feel as if they are not gaining from the current political and social climate that you are currently enjoying. This protest is them expressing their frustration. Sure, it would be great if some people weren't looting, but to say that there is no political or social issue for people involved in this civil unrest is just such a childish position. Life is not that simple.

I didn't say that these people don't have any political or social issues, I just said that they are not uniting under some ultimate issue that they are no protesting against, this is just a riot, it is that simple.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I didn't say that these people don't have any political or social issues, I just said that they are not uniting under some ultimate issue that they are no protesting against, this is just a riot, it is that simple.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I cannot buy into your simplistic world view. Sorry.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Right so they are the uneducated, unemployed (some of them) That doesn't instantly mean they are fighting for some kind of uprising, they are doing it because they have nothing to lose as you say.

That doesn't turn this riot into a political statement.

Having nothing to lose IS the political statement. People with nothing to lose are
dangerous. Get enough of them together and you have a revolution on your hands. In the end that is what all revolutions are about.

These people are unemployed due to their laziness (In my experience) they are uneducated due to their unwillingness to learn (In my experience) we have a fantastic welfare system that works if you put the effort in, they can be provided with training, education etc for free! If they are prepared to put in the work, but they aren't.

All these things are societies fault. People are naturally lazy, and learning is hard work. A large part of what society is all about is motivating people to work, to learn, to improve, to strive for better. If you have a large group of people not doing that, your society if failing.

 

[HAL9000]

Having nothing to lose IS the political statement. People with nothing to lose are
dangerous. Get enough of them together and you have a revolution on your hands. In the end that is what all revolutions are about.

How is that a political statement? Dangerous? Yes. Political? No.

All these things are societies fault. People are naturally lazy, and learning is hard work. A large part of what society is all about is motivating people to work, to learn, to improve, to strive for better. If you have a large group of people not doing that, your society if failing.

We give them money, we force them to go to school, we offer them training, we offer them jobs, we give them free health care... What more can we do?!

 

[spidey07]

Wow. I can't believe I'm reading all these posts about how it's society's fault they are looting or are poor. I've got a really novel idea, how about getting a job? I guess society is supposed to go out and find one for you, hand deliver it and call you everyday to make sure you actually show up for work?

 

[HAL9000]

Wow. I can't believe I'm reading all these posts about how it's society's fault they are looting or are poor. I've got a really novel idea, how about getting a job? I guess society is supposed to go out and find one for you, hand deliver it and call you everyday to make sure you actually show up for work?

Yeah apparently the UK's "Nanny State" isn't doing enough to help these lazy shits, we should probably be sending taxi's to their houses, to take them to work, then have social workers do the work for them and give them the pay.

 

[RabidMongoose]

We give them money, we force them to go to school, we offer them training, we offer them jobs, we give them free health care... What more can we do?!

A lot of them are unemployed, which seems to be a significant cause of social unrest both in the UK and the Middle East.

Obviously their communities are going through difficult times. Perhaps they feel that these things that are 'offered' to them are inadequate, corrupt, being cut by austerity measures while other classes are experiencing lavish riches, etc.

Either way, it's an underlying social issue.

 

[HAL9000]

A lot of them are unemployed, which seems to be a significant cause of social unrest both in the UK and the Middle East.

And America.

Obviously their communities are going through difficult times. Perhaps they feel that these things that are 'offered' to them are inadequate, corrupt, being cut by austerity measures while other classes are experiencing lavish riches, etc.

They'd be wrong! Everyone in the UK is being offered exactly the same, no one is better off because of class etc. We have a fantastic benefit system, there's no corruption. How it can be inadequate when it's one of the best welfare systems in the world is beyond me, so much better for the poor than America for example.

Either way, it's an underlying social issue.

It's really not.

 

[RabidMongoose]

And America.

I don't think that the US has seen the levels of social unrest that we're seeing in the UK and the Arab world. However, it could happen, but I think that it would be a little more difficult in the US since the population is so spread out.

They'd be wrong! Everyone in the UK is being offered exactly the same, no one is better off because of class etc. We have a fantastic benefit system, there's no corruption. How it can be inadequate when it's one of the best welfare systems in the world is beyond me, so much better for the poor than America for example.

They are unhappy relative to their own expectations and current environment. That's about it. Should they just be happy that they're not starving to death in Somalia? Of course not. People have legitimate grievances even if they're not in the worse possible situation in the entire world.

Everything you say right now could have been repeated for the protesters in Libya, Egypt, etc. "How can their system be inadequate when it is so much better for the poor than Somalia for example."

The bottom line is that people are unhappy relative to their current environment. They feel that the UK system is failing them. That's about it. You can disagree with them, but that doesn't mean that they have no grievances against the social and political order that you are currently benefitting from.

 

[HAL9000]

I don't think that the US has seen the levels of social unrest that we're seeing in the UK and the Arab world. However, it could happen, but I think that it would be a little more difficult in the US since the population is so spread out.

Unemployment is definitely worse in America, and when I was out there I saw a lot more social unrest in places like Detroit than anywhere in the UK.

They are unhappy relative to their own expectations and current environment. That's about it. Should they just be happy that they're not starving to death in Somalia? Of course not. People have legitimate grievances even if they're not in the worse possible situation in the entire world.

Everything you say right now could have been repeated for the protesters in Libya, Egypt, etc. "How can their system be inadequate when it is so much better for the poor than Somalia for example."

The bottom line is that people are unhappy relative to their current environment. They feel that the UK system is failing them. That's about it. You can disagree with them, but that doesn't mean that they have no grievances against the social and political order that you are currently benefitting from.

Where are you getting all of this from? Where are you getting the notion that they are unhappy with x from? I have heard nothing about anyone being unhappy other than morons saying "It's fun innit" on the news.

Everyone in the UK is benefitting from out welfare state in the UK, it's not just me.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Unemployment is definitely worse in America, and when I was out there I saw a lot more social unrest in places like Detroit than anywhere in the UK.

Really? Because there seem to be mass protests in the UK right now. Sure seems like there's a lot of social unrest there.

Where are you getting all of this from? Where are you getting the notion that they are unhappy with x from? I have heard nothing about anyone being unhappy other than morons saying "It's fun innit" on the news.

Everyone in the UK is benefitting from out welfare state in the UK, it's not just me.

You must be reading some sort of nationalistic news. I've even read that the former London mayor acknowledges social grievances.

Look, we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think that there are obviously social concerns that the protesters have...you think that the UK is full of a tremendous amount of free and roaming criminals that have basically shut down the country instead of actual people in civil unrest. That's fine.

Either way, there are serious issues that the UK will need to address, be they the social and political order or the criminal enforcement and justice system.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Wow. I can't believe I'm reading all these posts about how it's society's fault they are looting or are poor. I've got a really novel idea, how about getting a job? I guess society is supposed to go out and find one for you, hand deliver it and call you everyday to make sure you actually show up for work?

No, society was supposed to teach them from a young age that laziness does not pay, and that education does. It was supposed to give them incentive to work hard to earn a living. Society should not teach that the harder you work the less you make, and that you can make almost the same sitting on your ass drinking beer.

 

[HAL9000]

Really? Because there seem to be mass protests in the UK right now. Sure seems like there's a lot of social unrest there.

Nope, they're riots.

You must be reading some sort of nationalistic news. I've even read that the former London mayor acknowledges social grievances.

I read the BBC, The Times, CNN and the Daily Mail (for laughs) Mainly.

Look, we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think that there are obviously social concerns that the protesters have...you think that the UK is full of a tremendous amount of free and roaming criminals that have basically shut down the country instead of actual people in civil unrest. That's fine.

I don't think that, I know it for a fact, these "protesters" are, as a statement of fact: Criminals, they are committing crimes, there is no debate about that.

Either way, there are serious issues that the UK will need to address, be they the social and political order or the criminal enforcement and justice system.

Every country has issues, these riots aren't anything to do with changing the issues we have.

 

[HAL9000]

No, society was supposed to teach them from a young age that laziness does not pay, and that education does. It was supposed to give them incentive to work hard to earn a living. Society should not teach that the harder you work the less you make, and that you can make almost the same sitting on your ass drinking beer.

Quite true, that's what my country teaches.

 

[SMOGZINN]

you think that the UK is full of a tremendous amount of free and roaming criminals that have basically shut down the country instead of actual people in civil unrest. That's fine.

Either way, there are serious issues that the UK will need to address, be they the social and political order or the criminal enforcement and justice system.

I was trying not to reply to RabidMongoose, because I think he is being needlessly inflammatory, but here he said something to important to overlook.

Even if you believe that these are large groups of lawless anarchists, roaming the streets committing crimes at will, then you still have to see that this is a problem for society. That something has gone wrong that society has generated so many criminal, and emboldened them to band together and ignore society’s rules with seeming impunity.
While policing force will solve part of that issue, it does nothing to address the other half. Why are there that many criminals at all?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Every country has issues, these riots aren't anything to do with changing the issues we have.

Why do you keep trying to excuse what is going on? Nobody is saying that there is a country that doesn't have any issues to address. You really need to stop with the nationalistic tendencies. There are obviously major issues going on in the UK that are far more severe than what is going on in most other countries.

Even the former London mayor is acknowledging the social issues with regard to these protests. There are people with obvious social concerns. That doesn't mean that you accept their social concerns, but obviously a lot of people have some sort of concern. People don't protest for days on end for no reason.

Even if you reject the very premise of anyone protesting at all over any sort of social or political concern, then there is a serious problem in the UK with thousands and thousands of criminals being free to roam the streets. Then the question is...why is the UK full of so many criminals running around loose? It's another social and political issue that would need to be addressed.

No matter which way you go with your incredibly nationalistic views, there are serious social and political issues in the UK.

 

[HAL9000]

I was trying not to reply to RabidMongoose, because I think he is being needlessly inflammatory, but here he said something to important to overlook.

Even if you believe that these are large groups of lawless anarchists, roaming the streets committing crimes at will, then you still have to see that this is a problem for society. That something has gone wrong that society has generated so many criminal, and emboldened them to band together and ignore society’s rules with seeming impunity.
While policing force will solve part of that issue, it does nothing to address the other half. Why are there that many criminals at all?

Now that is a valid point, but IMO society hasn't spawned these people, these people exist in every society when you get a large amount of them in any one area, either through an economic depression or whatever reason, this kind of stuff happens.

 

[HAL9000]

Why do you keep trying to excuse what is going on? Nobody is saying that there is a country that doesn't have any issues to address. You really need to stop with the nationalistic tendencies. There are obviously major issues going on in the UK that are far more severe than what is going on in most other countries.

REALLY?! America has far more issues currently than the UK, we don't really have many severe issues at the moment.

Even the former London mayor is acknowledging the social issues with regard to these protests. There are people with obvious social concerns. That doesn't mean that you accept their social concerns, but obviously a lot of people have some sort of concern. People don't protest for days on end for no reason.

Not a protest, it's a riot, people do riot for this long for no reason.

Even if you reject the very premise of anyone protesting at all over any sort of social or political concern, then there is a serious problem in the UK with thousands and thousands of criminals being free to roam the streets. Then the question is...why is the UK full of so many criminals running around loose? It's another social and political issue that would need to be addressed.

With any luck after the weekend they won't be, problem solved.

No matter which way you go with your incredibly nationalistic views, there are serious social and political issues in the UK.

Where?

 

[RabidMongoose]

REALLY?! America has far more issues currently than the UK, we don't really have many severe issues at the moment.

I'd say that if there are mass protests, then that's indicative of having many severe issues at the moment. If your country is considering shutting down portions of the Internet, then there are problems.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Can't say much else to someone who is so nationalistic that he says there aren't many severe issues even when he complains about riots all over the place in his country. That's about as nationalistic as you can get - complaining about an issue but then denying that it even exists in the very next sentence.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I was trying not to reply to RabidMongoose, because I think he is being needlessly inflammatory, but here he said something to important to overlook.

Even if you believe that these are large groups of lawless anarchists, roaming the streets committing crimes at will, then you still have to see that this is a problem for society. That something has gone wrong that society has generated so many criminal, and emboldened them to band together and ignore society’s rules with seeming impunity.
While policing force will solve part of that issue, it does nothing to address the other half. Why are there that many criminals at all?

No, I'm not trying to be needlessly inflammatory, but I was trying to show that either way, there are significant issues that would need to be dealt with. Good post.

 

[spidey07]

I was trying not to reply to RabidMongoose, because I think he is being needlessly inflammatory, but here he said something to important to overlook.

Even if you believe that these are large groups of lawless anarchists, roaming the streets committing crimes at will, then you still have to see that this is a problem for society. That something has gone wrong that society has generated so many criminal, and emboldened them to band together and ignore society’s rules with seeming impunity.
While policing force will solve part of that issue, it does nothing to address the other half. Why are there that many criminals at all?

Some people simple don't want to go to work. That's really all it is. Stop trying to blame society on people's poor choices and behavior. Or are you going for the workers paradise?