londons burning

[Mem]

On the contrary, here in America if riots were minutes away americans would be seconds from their weapons. The simple fact remains is these thugs wouldn't be able to get away with it after we started shooting them. Seeing their buddies drop from a gaping chest would tends to stop their motivation.

What happens if the bullet hits the wrong or innocent person, bullets could ricochet, besides bullets can damage buildings/shops windows too.

 

[QuantumPion]

huh? if they had guns the death toll would be insane! dont be so simple as to say gun control is gonna resolve economic issues. The people are poor and cant afford to live in London, hence these riots.

Uh no, there would be a small handful of rioters shot dead and then the rest would go home because they don't want to be shot too. These aren't political martyrs, these are just thugs doing whatever they can get away with because they can.

Remember hurricane Katrina? There were signs everywhere warning looters would be shot on sight. There were no insane death tolls due to looters being shot because thugs aren't going to knowingly risk their lives for a TV.

 

[spidey07]

What happens if the bullet hits the wrong or innocent person, bullets could ricochet, besides bullets can damage buildings/shops windows too.

That's why you aim properly and use ammunition designed to destroy as much flesh as possible and not exit with much velocity. Look into frangible ammo.

 

[Mem]

That's why you aim properly and use ammunition designed to destroy as much flesh as possible and not exit with much velocity. Look into frangible ammo.

UK Police stated they had issues with riot mobs because spectators were so close and also in some cases mixing in with the spectators.

 

[QuantumPion]

What happens if the bullet hits the wrong or innocent person, bullets could ricochet, besides bullets can damage buildings/shops windows too.

In American law, if a bystander dies as a result of a criminal's activity, the criminal is the one responsible, even if they didn't directly cause the death. The rioters are the ones at fault to begin with. It is not the fault of people trying to defend their lives and property from the rioters.

 

[WelshBloke]

Uh no, there would be a small handful of rioters shot dead and then the rest would go home because they don't want to be shot too. These aren't political martyrs, these are just thugs doing whatever they can get away with because they can.

Remember hurricane Katrina? There were signs everywhere warning looters would be shot on sight. There were no insane death tolls due to looters being shot because thugs aren't going to knowingly risk their lives for a TV.

WTF? There were loads of reports of looting after Katrina.

 

[spidey07]

WTF? There were loads of reports of looting after Katrina.

Not of the home and businesses that were armed. You loot, we shoot.

 

[werepossum]

IIRC that's not even correct. Those MP5s and G36s that you frequently see UK firearms officers with are all semi-auto. No burst, no full auto. In order to minimize the chances of collateral damage.

And hey, if what touched these riots off was a firearms officer firing 2 rounds from an MP5, instantly killing the suspect, it looks like they don't need full auto. :thumbsup:

Cops should NEVER have automatic weapons. Full auto fire is the very antithesis of aimed fire, useful only for very close encounters and suppressive fire.

 

[QuantumPion]

WTF? There were loads of reports of looting after Katrina.

I didn't say there wasn't looting. I said there weren't massive death tolls due to looters being shot. The looters avoided the places that had signs warning looters would be shot on sight and concentrated on the urban areas where police illegally banned and confiscated firearms.

 

[spidey07]

I didn't say there wasn't looting. I said there weren't massive death tolls due to looters being shot. The looters avoided the places that had signs warning looters would be shot on sight and concentrated on the urban areas where police illegally banned and confiscated firearms.

Criminals/looter/rioters may be stupid, but they aren't dumb.

 

[WelshBloke]

I didn't say there wasn't looting. I said there weren't massive death tolls due to looters being shot. The looters avoided the places that had signs warning looters would be shot on sight and concentrated on the urban areas where police illegally banned and confiscated firearms.

So pretty much the whole "if you had guns in the UK there'd be no rioting or looting " argument is bollocks then?

 

[QuantumPion]

So pretty much the whole "if you had guns in the UK there'd be no rioting or looting " argument is bollocks then?

I never made that argument. Clearly, as there have been riots in the US. But the rioting would quickly stop once rioters started getting shot. Or at least they would be confined to rioting as mobs in public areas monitored by police, not running around accosting random people unchecked .

 

[RabidMongoose]

Cameron is making some noise about blocking social networking and BBM or enabling tracking of people who use it:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/ca...ng-twitter-facebook-bbm-after-riots-50004693/

This is becoming more and more like the Arab Spring revolution as I described earlier. High youth unemployment resulting in civil unrest, and now a possible crackdown on the Internet? That's going too far, IMO. If you're thinking about going that far, then you would be better off directly addressing the social concerns that the people are protesting over.

 

[HAL9000]

Cameron is making some noise about blocking social networking and BBM or enabling tracking of people who use it:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/ca...ng-twitter-facebook-bbm-after-riots-50004693/

Good.

This is becoming more and more like the Arab Spring revolution as I described earlier. High youth unemployment resulting in civil unrest, and now a possible crackdown on the Internet? That's going too far, IMO. If you're thinking about going that far, then you would be better off directly addressing the social concerns that the people are protesting over.

It's a riot.

 

[Nebor]

If you're thinking about going that far, then you would be better off directly addressing the social concerns that the people are protesting over.

False. That's tantamount to negotiating with terrorists.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Well, just like in the Arab Spring, the people in power and those who gained from the current social order claimed that the protesters were thugs, violent, terrorists, etc. It depends on the perspective that you're looking at.

You may think that this is just a bunch of thugs that just want to steal stuff. I'm sure that parts of the protest is just that. However, as even stated by the former London mayor, protests that last for days are more indicative of social issues than anything else. It seems that most of the protest is about the social issues impacting these communities.

 

[HAL9000]

False. That's tantamount to negotiating with terrorists.

Agreed, we aren't going to be meeting these rioters demands any time soon, most of which would be no laws, and lawless chaos and free TV's for everyone.

 

[HAL9000]

Well, just like in the Arab Spring, the people in power and those who gained from the current social order claimed that the protesters were thugs, violent, terrorists, etc. It depends on the perspective that you're looking at.

You may think that this is just a bunch of thugs that just want to steal stuff. I'm sure that parts of the protest is just that. However, as even stated by the former London mayor, protests that last for days are more indicative of social issues than anything else. It seems that most of the protest is about the social issues impacting these communities.

It's a riot, there's no debating that, there's no argument to be made, you obviously have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are just looking to push your own xenophobic agenda.

 

[Nebor]

Agreed, we aren't going to be meeting these rioters demands any time soon, most of which would be no laws, and lawless chaos and free TV's for everyone.

Exactly. That just sends the message that if you disregard the law, foment disorder & chaos and steal shit then you'll get everything you want.

Crack their skulls, tear gas them, track them down and throw them in jail. It looks like the UK's CCTV system is really working out well to track down the rioters after the fact. :thumbsup:

 

[HAL9000]

Exactly. That just sends the message that if you disregard the law, foment disorder & chaos and steal shit then you'll get everything you want.

Crack their skulls, tear gas them, track them down and throw them in jail. It looks like the UK's CCTV system is really working out well to track down the rioters after the fact. :thumbsup:

Definitely, we've arrested 1000 of these morons so far, with any like we'll get another 1000 soon, I'm just really hoping they arrest the idiots who mugged that foreign student when they were pretending to help him.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Frankly I couldn't give a shit if they get rehabilitation or not. It's not like they didn't know what they were doing was wrong they just thought they could get away with it.

If you don't rehabilitate you just get people that will be better at it next time. Rehabilitation is indeed the answer, sticking them in a room somewhere and keeping them there for a long while does very little to stop crime. Unfortunately rehabilitation is expensive and attitudes like yours makes it an easy budget to cut by politicians that are desperate to find money for popular programs that will get them reelected.

My impression is they are pretty lazy and spoiled and need to get their asses kicked and put to work. There are all sorts of reasons that a large part of a generation has gone that they will surely get debated, but the solution seems clear enough. I hope the police go in and crack some heads.

You started this paragraph so well. What they need is to have the opportunity to do meaningful paid work and a stake in society. Research shows very clearly that if you give someone a job that makes them feel like they are doing something useful, and pays enough to live comfortable, they commit very few crimes.

• Live in urban areas or run down industrial cities? Check high population density?
• Be uneducated, unemployed and can barely speak the native language? Check state poverty?
• Have no ambitions or goals in life, other than getting girls pregnant? Check little advancement opportunity?
• At best make minimum wage, but dress like a clown in (fake) designer clothes, way too much crap jewelery, and pimp out some old shit car? Check meanial labor, no hope of advancement?
• Hangout in town all day drinking, smoking weed and getting in fights? Check little stake in society?
• Cause of much of the theft and crime in your shitty neighborhood? Check desperation?
• Be an embarrassment to humanity and be hated by everyone around you? Check social repression, further holding you back?
• Anyone with money moves as far away as they can from you? Check And finally, a system that insures you stay that way

Is it any surprise they are angry? They now see the little good they get out of their situation, free government handouts, drying up. The thing is the government handouts was never a good solution to begin with, we would be much better off giving them meaningful work.

The Youngest to appear in court is 11 years old,wtf were his parents doing?

Obviously running faster. Longer legs and all.

 

[RabidMongoose]

It's a riot, there's no debating that, there's no argument to be made, you obviously have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are just looking to push your own xenophobic agenda.

Seems like civil unrest to me, you can call it a riot or a protest or an uprising or a revolution. Ultimately, it's irrelevant as the main issue is the underlying social cause and concern of the protesters.

You feel that this is just all about stealing televisions. I disagree. People don't protest for days on end just to steal televisions. They are protesting because they are unhappy with the current social and political order.

It's likely that you don't see this because you are more likely to benefit from the current social or political order than those who feel oppressed. Maybe you think that people should shut up and be obedient, but obviously that doesn't always work out. People will express their frustration.

 

[p0nd]

Agreed, we aren't going to be meeting these rioters demands any time soon, most of which would be no laws, and lawless chaos and free TV's for everyone.

It's nice to think of it that way, because everyone likes to believe they are smarter and more civilized than those "other people." This is evident in your statement where you completely misdiagnose the issue of rioting.

Riots are a symptom of hopelessness and powerlessness. These are people who have been stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system and are upset. Because they are undereducated (which comes with being stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system), the riots don't have a real direction or target and that's why looting, burning breaks out. They have nothing to lose, no stake in their communities, and have been disenfranchised by the rest of their society.

I don't condone looting or anything like that, but the media message that rioters are "anarchists, punks, ne'er-do-wells, idiots, etc. that want to smash and steal" is just laughably, depressingly, naive and will only serve to perpetuate the environment that creates riots like this to begin with.

 

[HAL9000]

Seems like civil unrest to me,

It can seem like whatever you like to you, it can seem like a huge garden party to you, the fact of the matter is, these people are committing crimes because they think it's fun, they are stealing because they want to, they have no political agenda, they aren't targeting their crimes at any where in particular, they have never spoken out, they have never said anything in anyway to every suggest they are doing this for any other reason other than they want to, they say they want to do it to piss off the police, or to get free stuff, or for fun.

That.

Is.

All.

 

[HAL9000]

It's nice to think of it that way, because everyone likes to believe they are smarter and more civilized than those "other people." This is evident in your statement where you completely misdiagnose the issue of rioting.

Riots are a symptom of hopelessness and powerlessness. These are people who have been stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system and are upset. Because they are undereducated (which comes with being stuck on the shitty end of an unequal system), the riots don't have a real direction or target and that's why looting breaks out. They have nothing to lose, no stake in their communities, and have been disenfranchised by the rest of their society. I don't condone looting or anything like that, but the media message that rioters are "anarchists, punks, ne'er-do-wells, idiots, etc. that just want to smash and steal" is just laughably naive and will only serve to perpetuate the environment that creates riots like this to begin with.

Right so they are the uneducated, unemployed (some of them) That doesn't instantly mean they are fighting for some kind of uprising, they are doing it because they have nothing to lose as you say.

That doesn't turn this riot into a political statement. These people are unemployed due to their laziness (In my experience) they are uneducated due to their unwillingness to learn (In my experience) we have a fantastic welfare system that works if you put the effort in, they can be provided with training, education etc for free! If they are prepared to put in the work, but they aren't.