London is cracking down on knives

[fskimospy]

gotcha, article disagrees with you, therefore its not relevant.

No, the article lacks any empirical or scientific rigor and attempts to answer a complex question with descriptive statistics. It's not irrelevant, it's just incompetent.

My sources on the other hand are competent, peer-reviewed research. If you're someone who is actually interested in learning about the link between gun ownership and suicide those should be very interesting reads. If you are instead, as I suspect, someone trying to invent reasons to ignore inconvenient facts I'm sure you'll continue to do so. Why would you want to remain purposefully ignorant though? I mean what does that really get you?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This is again, anecdotal evidence and a blog post that the author should be ashamed of. Attempting to look at suicide rates without controlling for other effects would get you an F in stats 101. Honestly, a first semester undergrad could teach that guy a lot about research.

If you would like actual evidence on the relationship between gun ownership and suicide here are a few peer reviewed studies to that effect. I can provide you with many, many more if you are so inclined.

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/160/10/929/140858



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4984734/



I can cite a whole lot more if you would like. Mine are actual peer-reviewed research too, not a blog post.

Why does Illinois have a lower suicide rate than the UK?

 

[mdram]

No, the article lacks any empirical or scientific rigor and attempts to answer a complex question with descriptive statistics. It's not irrelevant, it's just incompetent.

My sources on the other hand are competent, peer-reviewed research. If you're someone who is actually interested in learning about the link between gun ownership and suicide those should be very interesting reads. If you are instead, as I suspect, someone trying to invent reasons to ignore inconvenient facts I'm sure you'll continue to do so. Why would you want to remain purposefully ignorant though? I mean what does that really get you?

as i have said in the past. i have 0 sympathy for suicide.
if someone truly wants to take their life, they will find a way.
as the article i posted shows. lack of guns doesnt matter

 

[fskimospy]

Here's another graph for you.

It would appear that NYC is not unique, far from it in terms of homicide rates from guns. NYC is also not an island and as guns are so very easy to get the decline, relying on NYC laws is problematic as the cause because the facts are that NYC is becoming more like the most of the rest of America and crime as a whole is down. Where this is of note is that other highly regulated cities aren't following this trend.

I'm not relying on NYC laws and as I've said before I find most efforts at gun control in the US to be pointless as what we need is a nationwide ban. It's not helpful to control the sale of guns in one place when someone can drive for a few hours and defeat your ban.

All I took issue with was your claim that banning guns did not work in London. By all indications it's worked just fine.

 

[fskimospy]

as i have said in the past. i have 0 sympathy for suicide.
if someone truly wants to take their life, they will find a way.
as the article i posted shows. lack of guns doesnt matter

The article you posted shows nothing of the sort, it's an incompetently written blog post using descriptive statistics.

As for the 'they will find a way' argument this is also demonstrably untrue. The vast majority of people who attempt suicide never do so again, which is why limiting access to highly effective lethal means such as guns is so effective in preventing it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12204922

Median proportions for repetition 1 year later were: 16% non-fatal and 2% fatal; after more than 9 years, around 7% of patients had died by suicide. The UK studies found particularly low rates of subsequent suicide.

You just have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[fskimospy]

Why does Illinois have a lower suicide rate than the UK?

Because suicide is caused by more things than just the availability of guns? The only relevant question here is if in any given situation the presence of a gun increases the likelihood of suicide, decreases it, or has no effect. The results are clear: it increases it.

That would mean if you added a bunch of guns to the UK their suicide rate would go even higher. Similarly, if you removed guns from Illinois more people would survive.

 

[mdram]

The article you posted shows nothing of the sort, it's an incompetently written blog post using descriptive statistics.

As for the 'they will find a way' argument this is also demonstrably untrue. The vast majority of people who attempt suicide never do so again, which is why limiting access to highly effective lethal means such as guns is so effective in preventing it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12204922



You just have no idea what you're talking about.

just look at japan. high suicide rate, low gun ownership

 

[pmv]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-brain/201607/fact-check-gun-control-and-suicide

suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.

You do realise that isn't actually a response to the post you are replying to, right?

 

[cytg111]

There be degrees of knifes. Push daggers, butterfly knifes, spring knifes and the like - you could argue is less utility and more murder death kill oriented in design... but wtf do I know..

 

[pmv]

The police thought they would make London safer without guns and it didn't work.

Do you have any actual evidence for this peculiar statement?

(London has the same gun laws as the rest of the UK. Gun laws are not imposed at the whim of 'the police', they are passed by parliament. And can you present your evidence that London would be no safer if the UK had US style gun laws? Thanks).

 

[mdram]

There be degrees of knifes. Push daggers, butterfly knifes, spring knifes and the like - you could argue is less utility and more murder death kill oriented in design... but wtf do I know..

but the article i posted targeted kitchen knives

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm not relying on NYC laws and as I've said before I find most efforts at gun control in the US to be pointless as what we need is a nationwide ban. It's not helpful to control the sale of guns in one place when someone can drive for a few hours and defeat your ban.

All I took issue with was your claim that banning guns did not work in London. By all indications it's worked just fine.

And yet without the ban it seems NYC is headed towards a lower rate than London.

And if you have the guns gone? Knives? In this state of ours, NY has made my wife and daughter less able to protect herself from violent crimes including rape. My daughter carries a knife, the only practical thing left, for now. With Cuomo that might change when it suits him.

Shall I tell a woman who had no legal means of defense that it's for the greater good? That at least it was only rape?

 

[Genx87]

That's fine but I think you know as well as I do that it's completely irrelevant as gun ownership isn't the only factor in homicide rate. That's why anecdotal evidence isn't useful, as it doesn't account for those things. On the other hand empirical research does control for other factors, which is why it's the standard of evidence we should all use. The research indicates increased gun ownership is associated with an increase in crime, homicide, and suicide.

I don't think this is the most surprising finding ever, when you increase the availability of tools frequently used in crime and killing, crime and killing goes up. It's kind of common sense.

Absolutely and the point in my exercise. There are more than access to weapons that determines a gun homicide rate. Mexicos gun violence is centered around the drug trade. There is also cultural, economic among the factors. It is why I cringe when comparing two countries. Japan could allow every gun under the sun to be bought tomorrow. Their homicide rate will not change.

 

[fskimospy]

just look at japan. high suicide rate, low gun ownership

Again, this is pointless anecdotal evidence. You understand why it’s pointless, right? That you have to control for societal factors?

Can you give me a reason why you keep ignoring actual empirical research into the topic and instead rely on blog posts? Can you give me any reason other than they tell you what you want to believe?

 

[mdram]

Shall I tell a woman who had no legal means of defense that it's for the greater good? That at least it was only rape?

and this is when i point to Carol Browne, the system failed her.

 

[mdram]

Again, this is pointless anecdotal evidence. You understand why it’s pointless, right? That you have to control for societal factors?

Can you give me a reason why you keep ignoring actual empirical research into the topic and instead rely on blog posts? Can you give me any reason other than they tell you what you want to believe?

because libs never mention societal factors, only guns. before pointing to the tool look at people, they are the true issue.

glad you admitted its a people problem, and not a tool problem

 

[pmv]

Japan could allow every gun under the sun to be bought tomorrow. Their homicide rate will not change.

You do seem to like your non-evidence-based definitive statements. How do you know this? Do you have a crystal ball or access to an alternative universe?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Because suicide is caused by more things than just the availability of guns? The only relevant question here is if in any given situation the presence of a gun increases the likelihood of suicide, decreases it, or has no effect. The results are clear: it increases it.

That would mean if you added a bunch of guns to the UK their suicide rate would go even higher. Similarly, if you removed guns from Illinois more people would survive.

Here is the problem I see between our perspectives. I think there can be compromises. You don't. Once you eliminate guns I don't think that will be the end. I believe what will happen is the "compromise" of nothing happening because the vast majority of Americans aren't going to put up with extremists on either side.

Deadlock.

 

[fskimospy]

And yet without the ban it seems NYC is headed towards a lower rate than London.

It definitely doesn’t look like that. Are you just extrapolating NYC’s decline from a very high level into infinity?

And if you have the guns gone? Knives? In this state of ours, NY has made my wife and daughter less able to protect herself from violent crimes including rape. My daughter carries a knife, the only practical thing left, for now. With Cuomo that might change when it suits him.

Shall I tell a woman who had no legal means of defense that it's for the greater good? That at least it was only rape?

Increased gun ownership is associated with increased rates of violent crime. The same weapons you want to use for defense are used far more often to attack. If you want your daughter to be safe the answer is fewer guns, not more.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Do you have any actual evidence for this peculiar statement?

(London has the same gun laws as the rest of the UK. Gun laws are not imposed at the whim of 'the police', they are passed by parliament. And can you present your evidence that London would be no safer if the UK had US style gun laws? Thanks).

The context is that the laws have been on the books for decades and the rate is increasing regardless.

 

[Genx87]

The gun ban was in 1997 and these policies take years to implement. It's not like you ban guns and they suddenly disappear. If anything your chart strongly supports my case but again we don't really need that chart, we have reams of actual statistical research on the effects of guns on murder rates.

Is it really so hard to admit that widespread availability of very effective killing tools leads to more killing? I mean... come on.

The point wasn't really 7 years after the gun ban murders peaked. That was just a snarky thing to say on my part. The point is irregardless of the gun ban, London was a safe city.

 

[pmv]

The context is that the laws have been on the books for decades and the rate is increasing regardless.

Which doesn't answer my post or defend your original statement at all.

 

[fskimospy]

because libs never mention societal factors, only guns. before pointing to the tool look at people, they are the true issue.

glad you admitted its a people problem, and not a tool problem

Of course they mention the societal factors, don’t be silly. It is most certainly a tool problem though, the research is very clear on that.

Have you switched to just pretending the research doesn’t exist now? Why? Again, why are you so threatened by inconvenient facts?

 

[pmv]

And yet without the ban it seems NYC is headed towards a lower rate than London.

You have the same approach to statistical analysis as climate-change deniers.

 

[DigDog]

source for the following info: i have lived 4 years in London, between 2007 and 2010.

London is bad. There are vast areas of London that can only be described as "ghettos", where the population is almost exclusively black and/or otherwise migrants, again almost exclusively from poorer countries. Kids are absolutely awful, just about every kid i spoke with told me "when i grow up i want to be a gangster" or variations of the same. None can speak proper english, they have an absurd view of life, some even want to join al-quaeda because "fight the power". I'm not making this up. The level of ignorance among kids in most London suburbs is shocking, be it Peckham, Croydon, Stratford, Hampsted Heath, it doesn't matter. They are so lost and without guidance that they have "postcode wars", where if you are from one postcode, you automatically hate everyone from the other postcode.

Stabbings are a daily occurrence. Kids of any age will go around carrying knives, because it's what you do in London.