Listening to and considering the 'other side'

[theeedude]

Exactly my point.

The liberal mindset is based on avoiding and/or denying responsibility

Nice try taking it out of context. She has no responsibility to anyone to give birth. Your mindset is based on sin and punishment, that if a woman had sinned and had sex, her punishment is to have a baby, and if she decides not to have a baby, she is denying and avoiding responsibility for her sins.
That's nonsense of course, if a woman decides she isn't ready to have a baby and has an abortion, that is the responsible thing for her to do.

 

[Texashiker]

Your mindset is based on sin and punishment,

My mindset is that all life is important. Especially so for children who can not speak for themselves.

 

[nehalem256]

Nice try taking it out of context. She has no responsibility to anyone to give birth. Your mindset is based on sin and punishment, that if a woman had sinned and had sex, her punishment is to have a baby, and if she decides not to have a baby, she is denying and avoiding responsibility for her sins.
That's nonsense of course, if a woman decides she isn't ready to have a baby and has an abortion, that is the responsible thing for her to do.

Sounds exactly like the mindset of liberals with regards to men who have sex.

Its pretty hard to consider the "other side" when they view me as essentially slave labor.

 

[theeedude]

My mindset is that all life is important. Especially so for children who can not speak for themselves.

All life is important? So you are a universal health care supporter?

 

[theeedude]

Sounds exactly like the mindset of liberals with regards to men who have sex.

Its pretty hard to consider the "other side" when they view me as essentially slave labor.

Men know when having sex that it would be the woman's body getting pregnant, and the woman's decision on what to do with her body.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The Republican party, en whole, does not "favor" rape.

The Republican party, however, has candidates & members that would have (if they won) made rape not exist, due to their religious beliefs. As in, for the sake of keeping a fetus (regardless of how it was created), there is no rape. If you got pregnant, you allowed it.

The woman has no rights - period.

Upon being conceived, the woman can't do anything other than carry the child to birth. And, of course raise the child, because it is her responsibility - again, regardless of how said child was conceived.

These are rocks being throw out of the Republican house. But, that doesn't mean the entire mansion is filled with crazed lunatics, is your point.

What have the Republicans done to stop their windows being smashed from within??

I think most politicians aren't worth the gas mileage to vote for, however they do exist and they do so by appealing to issues that resonate with their constituencies, and being frankly idiots go about it remarkably badly. The Republicans are particularly egregious in this regard, but someone has finally sat on these clowns to make them shut up at least until they get a chance to make fools of themselves yet again. When they do every microphone will be pointed in their direction so never fear we won't miss it.

So let's get away from for a moment and examine what I believe are harmful arguments which allow for absolutely no understanding of what people think and believe. This is "the other side" thread after all, right?

In that spirit, try to distance yourself from the rhetoric and your sense of what ought to be and engage in a thought experiment.

Suppose I were a creature from another world who has discovered humans and their civilization. Further, let's define myself as a member of a species who has no real point of reference for abortion and rape and all that goes on because we reproduce by other means. Sexuality would be known to me however as I've been traveling around the galaxy for a very long time. Let's say I have an understanding of a belief of a higher being, but I am not interested in your opinion of the validity of arguments for and against. What I do wish to know is the perspectives of what appears to be two major divisions regarding these issues from their point of view.

So with that background I find a creature which I identify as a member of the species and that's you. I wish you to explain to me the perspective of each side, not your own.

I find you an interesting organism because you operate in fundamentally different ways. To us, power is irrelevant in a social sense. We've no poverty, no crime. We have no ego to speak of, no need to dominate. We are not machines however. We have feelings of loyalty towards our kind. We do have affection towards one another. The purposeful harming of another is anathema. We aren't greedy. We don't have politicians. We don't have government in any sense you do. Instead we have organizational hierarchies which are somewhat akin to co-equal guilds and everything is entirely based on merit for a given concern. If you are someone who is helping on a task you may be at a lower rank for one purpose, then elevated for another, only to find ourselves lowered again for a third. This does not bother us because it isn't a punishment or a reward. It's allowing us to use our talents to their fullest to create worlds which are better for our children, however we have them. We're a meritocracy in just about the purest sense. When a thing needs action we identify, analyse, plan, test, implement, evaluate, adjust. That's who we are. We aren't without emotion but is it is recognized for what it is, a source of motivation, a call to action or reflection. We have concepts of rights. To harm another of our kind is wrong.


I've constructed this scenario to provide an outsider who wishes to understand, yet has "no dog in the fight", and indeed has no frame of reference. A tabula rasa, a creature who has enough in common with us as to have a potential for understanding, yet is unlike enough to need an explanation.

Oh, here's the rub. This alien isn't wandering around without a reason. He's evaluating races which are on the threshold of technical advancement sufficient to escape their world and interact with others. His job is to identify and gather information which will determine how his kind should view us, and the capability of rational analysis is valued highly among "his" kind, which will be viewed in the context of the extremely limited mental capabilities we possess. This is not a souped up human. This is a qualitatively superior intellect that no person can possibly become. It would be like trying to teach a hamster relativity, and indeed we're viewed as being not much different in comparison. You can't comprehend his full motives because that's fundamentally impossible, but it's obvious that pontificating might not be the best approach to add weight to the scales in our favor.

Your task would therefore be to present both sides of the case from the perspective of others in a way that reflects their views. If you put yourself in the way by injecting your sensibilities, to win approval of your viewpoint it will be instantly recognized and weigh heavily against us. This isn't just about this issue, but our species ability to reason and understand, and about our inherent qualities. Deception is impossible. Appeal to win favor will be instantly seen for what it is, and it is distinctly unwanted. You have been given a task and it wishes to know if you, and by extension, our species is found wanting.

Quite a motivator for "considering the other side", eh?

 

[nehalem256]

Men know when having sex that it would be the woman's body getting pregnant, and the woman's decision on what to do with her body.

And you want to hold men responsible for the decisions that women make with her body. That is what makes you a hypocrite.

Its a woman's body up until the bill comes due.

 

[fskimospy]

And you want to hold men responsible for the decisions that women make with her body. That is what makes you a hypocrite.

Its a woman's body up until the bill comes due.

Oh good, this argument again. You've never tried this one before, so I'm sure it will go better for you.

 

[theeedude]

And you want to hold men responsible for the decisions that women make with her body. That is what makes you a hypocrite.

Its a woman's body up until the bill comes due.

Men know that going in. Forcing women to carry to term against their will is not going to solve anything, and the bill will still be due.

 

[Texashiker]

So you are a universal health care supporter?

Yes.

Healthcare should be a basic human right affordable to all. Those who can not afford it health care should be provided for them.

 

[theeedude]

Yes.

Healthcare should be a basic human right affordable to all. Those who can not afford it health care should be provided for them.

:thumbsup:
If that were the case, maybe more women would decide to carry to term.

 

[WelshBloke]

The solution is for the parents to take responsibility for the child they created.

That's your solution to their problem.
If you force your solution on someone you are taking away their ability to solve their own problems and thus denying them the ability to take responsibility.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Quite a motivator for "considering the other side", eh?

In that respect, the creature would in for the long haul.

Especially with this bit of criteria:

When a thing needs action we identify, analyse, plan, test, implement, evaluate, adjust. That's who we are. We aren't without emotion but is it is recognized for what it is, a source of motivation, a call to action or reflection. We have concepts of rights. To harm another of our kind is wrong.

The creature would have to be presented with not just the political aspects of humanity, but everything tied to politics... which is everything. Because politics do influence who and what we are; from what we do in our bedrooms, to where we send our kids off to school and even what quality food we eat.

So, it would not be fair to just sum things up with the ramblings of the "oddballs" from each side.

The creature would have to live amongst us, and I would elaborate on what each "thing" means. Why such and such issue is a big deal.

For the most part, the proverbial proof is in the pudding, to determine if humanity is like this creature's kind. And,... humanity is nothing like this creature's kind.

To harm another of our kind is wrong.

Because humanity does harm to one another most of the time. Even when helping someone, there are cries of doing harm to someone else.

Would this statement stand true, 100%? No exceptions? That in order to be like this creature, we would not be allowed to harm another of our kind.

 

[Texashiker]

:thumbsup:
If that were the case, maybe more women would decide to carry to term.

If women were provided a safety net for their unexpected pregnancies, I am sure abortion rates would plummet.

And I am not talking about welfare, I mean housing, free education, daycare so the mother can attend school, maybe even daycare at the college, food stamps, job opportunities just for single moms, guaranteed liveable wage.

The truth is our nation is screwed up. Our social programs are shameful, our abortion rates should be ranked as a crime against humanity, our higher education is driving the younger generation into debt,,,,.

Rather than working together to find real solutions, the right and left fight back and forth. The people who need help are stuck in the middle.

 

[theeedude]

If women were provided a safety net for their unexpected pregnancies, I am sure abortion rates would plummet.

And I am not talking about welfare, I mean housing, free education, daycare so the mother can attend school, maybe even daycare at the college, food stamps, job opportunities just for single moms, guaranteed liveable wage.

The truth is our nation is screwed up. Our social programs are shameful, our abortion rates should be ranked as a crime against humanity, our higher education is driving the younger generation into debt,,,,.

Rather than working together to find real solutions, the right and left fight back and forth. The people who need help are stuck in the middle.

Welfare to work laws are an incentive to abort. Women are spending hours on the bus to minimum wage jobs while the kids are not cared for properly.

 

[HumblePie]

In this forum I get a healthy dose of opinions that disagree with mine. I feel fairly stuck in my positions and often when I read an opposite view, I wonder, "How could anyone feel like that?"

But of course they do and I could stand listening with a more open mind. Although it doesn't swing me in their direction, I appreciate how strong folks feel because I know the depth of my own positions. I even learn more about my own feelings by being aware of others' in fascinating, mostly adult conversations.

So I really appreciate AT because otherwise I wouldn't hear those voices since I tune out that side of the media.

All this brings me greater respect for those who disagree with me. The only thing I have trouble with here are all the insults. It feels like the 5th grade sometimes, and they only seem to hurt one's argument. I'm likely to tune out those bent on animosity.

Do you check out the other side outside of this forum? Do conversations with people who disagree with you peak your interest, or get you riled up? I'm somewhere in between and moving toward interest.

I find I align my political views with most of the Founding Fathers. This isn't about the Constitution and Declaration of Independence documentation only, but many of their side "ramblings" as well. I have read much of what they wrote, and what was written by those that they admired. I have also read much of political thoughts from other "great" thinkers from Marx, Mandella, Ghandi, and others. Not all I agree with though, because I said my thoughts I tend to align with the majority of Founding Fathers or what I believe how they would approach modern problems.

So why do I align my thoughts with those guys? 1) Most of them were pretty damn smart in this area of study. 2) What they setup put this nation on to the road that made us this great.

They set up the building blocks for all that have added on that came after them. They weren't perfect, and they made mistakes. However, their overall course and intent can be clearly seen and understood. Their ideas were sound on principle and very logical. So what do I believe in when it comes to political views? Here are the guiding principles.

1) Government should only be as big as it needs to be. It's a necessary evil. But government needs to step in when oversight, and regulation is called for, and step out when it is not needed for that anymore. Government is the parent on the playground supervising the kids having fun. For the most part the parent should let kids play and have fun. However, kids being kids will always mess up something somewhere. That's where the parent needs to step in, set up rules of boundaries for the kids to follow to prevent the mess-up and then let the kids be again. If the rule or boundary that was setup no longer needs to be, then it should be removed or at least re-evaluated.

2) Personal responsibility is key, but also going by the adage "you made your bed so lie in it" of a dog eat dog world is also not what the Founding Fathers envisioned either. A combination of neighbors helping neighbors as well as people taking ownership of their actions.

3) Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Those drawn to power aren't usually the best quality character people. As time goes on, more of those in positions of authority aren't going to be looking out for their fellow man any more. Positions of authority should actually be positions of servility, but corrupt people will always seek to change that around.



So with those principles in mind, where do I stand on major political wedge issues?

1) Abortion. I see both sides of the matter equally. I am a big fan of education to our children about the risks of having sex. I am a big fan of safe sex methods. As for actual abortion, I am fine with the current legislation of allowing abortion. I would also be fine with making it illegal except in special cases like rape or incest. I tend to lean more towards allowing abortion if done early on though. I understand accidents and shit happens. Like the safe sex method fails and the intent was not to get pregnant. Someone using "plan b" or even having an early on abortion within the first 20ish weeks is fine with me. Because it can be a hard decision to decide to keep it or not early on and a woman may decide a little later. By 20ish weeks a woman knows she is pregnant, and can make a rational decision of her future or not. After that time frame, I am not really in favor of late term abortions except in special cases where the life of the mother is threatened. By that time frame, a woman has had plenty of time to decide if they are ready to be a mother and make some decisions for her future. In my opinion, if a woman has waited to the third trimester, the decision is pretty much made by them to carry it to term IMHO. Delaying that long is the decision to bring the baby to term. To me that goes back to the guiding principle of personal responsibility for actions within consideration. Consideration is knowing that sometimes shit happens, and one doesn't expect to be pregnant or they determine early on they aren't ready to be a mother. Fine, early on realize the mistake and then have an abortion. Wait too long, and your decision is made the other way.

2) Fiscal responsibility. I believe in the government only being as big as it needs to be. I don't have a problem with government spending money to fix a problem in our society if it is something only the government can fix. But again, I believe in education over meddling any day. Take welfare and other government handout programs. I have no problem with having programs like this in our society. I've used unemployment and think it is a good thing to have. But again, I feel the government would do better to spend the money to help people help themselves instead of just being an "enabler" in allowing those that rather not contribute to society or their own well being from just living off the handouts from the government. I really think most of the "social netting" style government programs we have as a country need more scrutiny on how they work. If certain areas need to be expanded and can be justified for expansion, then I'm all for it. But I'm all for the opposite too. I also think social netting programs need to be constantly re-evaluated as well.

3) Taxes. Not a big fan of income taxes or property taxes. Not even really on sales taxes either. Originally the government was only allowed to tax international trade. I believe government taxation should only come from business profits, capital gains, and other forms of "profit" that people or businesses earn. Income tax was always viewed as a bad thing by the Founding Fathers and they were vehemently opposed to it as well as property taxes. That as well as taxation without representation. Giving the government the ability to seize what they want from the people through taxation was viewed as a bad idea by them. Taxes on income and property allow just such a avenue for the government to seize assets. Income for most people is trading labor for money. It is not a profit venture. Meaning there is no potential gains in the same way as profit ventures. I really wish the Founding Fathers had codified the national tax code a bit better personally. This to me was one of their mistakes, as they thought the income tax amendment would never happen.

4) Immigration. Really, I'm am pretty much a hard-liner here. Those that came here illegally, except the children dragged along, did so knowing the were violating the law. Now, I don't mind making it pretty damn easy for a person to migrate here, the current costs are pretty damn high and stupid right now IMHO, but I am against amnesty. Here's what I would do. Make it easier for those seeking legal migration. Right now one has to pass 2 written tests. English and Civics. While I know many conservations are big time for the English test, I am not. Who cares what a person speaks. I do think they should have the civics test though. Also the cost right now is like $640 or more. Way too high. $100 or whatever it costs for the administration fee to process a person is really what it should cost. Also the last requirement is the person not have a felony criminal record. However, those that entered already illegally should be given a 2 year grace period to allow them to apply for legal migration status after paying a penalty for being here illegally. That allows them to pay for their crime, and go the legal way or face deportation. I do believe our borders should be also beefed up as well.

5) Guns. I still can't believe this is a wedge issue. It's a right that shall not be infringed. Really I'm in major favor of making all children learn how to handle guns and gun safety as part of their normal schooling. I am also in favor of providing classes for adults as well. There are some major areas of basic education America as a society is really starting to lack overall. I'm not saying that everyone should own a gun, those that don't want to shouldn't. But I am saying that everyone should have a basic understanding of what they are and what they are not.

6) Healthcare. Here is a issue I think that the government needs to step in. The current situation of greed and corruption in the medical industry is hurting us as a nation. I do not like the current setup of insurance at all. Really I do not. Healthcare is a necessity to life and prosperity to this country. What I prefer to see happen is the following.
a) Prices must be known. All hospitals and providers must have a list of prices for known and regular procedures available to the public. Sellers of medical supplies and equipment must also have all their prices known. Right now prices in the US for anything related to healthcare is completely obfuscated on purpose to allow companies that make profit off the healthcare system to basically fleece the system. This is not the same as price controls. The problem is that since no one knows what the "competition" is charging for their service/item that there is no free market factors helping keep the prices down. In fact, there is tons of collusion and corruption keeping the prices arbitrarily inflated. Until hospital reach the point that a person can call to any of them and ask what they charge for a routine "appendectomy" and get the full amount quoted to them on the dime like damn near every other nation on this planet, then fair market forces won't be able to help keep healthcare costs down.
b) Government ran hospitals and graduate programs. For profit higher education institutions have a strangle hold on declaring who can be a "doctor" in this country and they know it. They charge a massive amount of money for doctor degree programs that mount a ton of debt on the student. Who in turn is expected to overcharge their patients to pay that back. That is a crock of shit. In conjunction with that, is for profit hospitals have a stranglehold on many markets in this nation. Again this is a crock of shit. I am whole heartedly for allowing the government to open up and either run or help run non profit schools to teach doctors and non profit hospitals that will employ them. Again, allow the fair market to help bring down prices but removing collusion, obfuscation, and increasing competition in the market.
c) A revamp of the whole pharma industry needs to be done. I'm not as sure as the measures to take here, but the is major problems that affect this industry as well as the entire medical supply industry. Patent trolls, and collusion are top of the list here. Government hand-outs without oversight are another.
d) If all those measures don't work well enough (I would be amazed if they didn't) then steps to make all healthcare insurance programs be non profit OR a single payer system need to be used next. This should be a last resort.

7) Climate change debate. Yep climate change is happening. I am all for reducing pollution and laws that crack down hard on it. I'm all for research into our environment. I'm not for knee jerk reactionary feel good laws that may or may not actually help the environment. How much of the climate change is man made I do not know and neither do the scientists. How much of the changes we can control, I do not know and really neither do the scientists right now. That doesn't mean it is still not a bad idea to take preventative measures to save the environment from human actions. But chicken little attitudes of the sky is falling and we'll all be dead in 10 years is a bit annoying. Especially when that attitude is used to drive reactionary legislation that does more to line pockets than to combat environment problems from human sources.

8) Military. Having served in the military and from a huge military family, I can have some experience others here may not. It's too big and the military does too much is pretty much my opinion. We shouldn't be the worlds police force just because we have the "best" military on the planet. The problem is that wars = money, and so corrupt politicians will always seek to justify it. That being said, I also see the military as overall a good experience for everyone. I would have no problem of instituting a mandatory 1 or 2 year enrolment for all US citizens into the military or government service organization. Call it the last year of "high school" or whatever.

Those are the bigger general category "wedge" issues I can think of and where I stand. I'm pretty damn moderate in my view based on the current measuring stick of what constitutes far left or far right.

 

[Texashiker]

Welfare to work laws are an incentive to abort. Women are spending hours on the bus to minimum wage jobs while the kids are not cared for properly.

Allow me to rephrase that for you.

The current welfare to work laws turn women into wage slaves.

That trend needs to stop. We as a nation should be ashamed at how we treat our women.

 

[werepossum]

I'm in Tennessee, and especially among engineers I'm a raging liberal. (Architects are far more liberal on balance.) It's good to get opposing views, views that are not examined are more or less worthless. Besides, there are virtually no issues without good points on both sides, gay marriage being the one that springs to mind as the closest.

Nah, If you really want a good laugh goto Foxnews, Drudge report or the national review.

Good to see you posting again. Been awhile, hope your health is holding up.

Considering where I have worked in the past I know a pretty large number of conservative people. We have perfectly reasonable and fun conversations. One of my oldest friends is a very conservative hedge fund manager and I love the guy.

With I'm sure some intemperate exceptions the people I insult on here are those who are bringing nothing to the conversation. I am in no way a conservative, but what I really hate is stupidity. Dmcowen is one of my least liked posters on here and he is very liberal, for example.

I don't think it's fair to call Dave stupid. He's not; this is a guy who has a pretty sharp, technical mind. Dave's a guy who had a life-shaping experience that warped him to the extreme left politically.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't think it's fair to call Dave stupid. He's not; this is a guy who has a pretty sharp, technical mind. Dave's a guy who had a life-shaping experience that warped him to the extreme left politically.

To be clear I'm not calling Dave himself stupid, I'm calling his arguments here stupid. I do not find what he posts here to be constructive in any way.

 

[Moonbeam]

And you want to hold men responsible for the decisions that women make with her body. That is what makes you a hypocrite.

Its a woman's body up until the bill comes due.

I have a right to property right up to the point I get taxed for the police bill Oh god, I'm enslaved. I have a right to defend myself, but the attorney wants money. My fucking rights are costing me out the ass.

Your ass is protected by the law and the Constitution so fucking pay the bill you sniveling wimp. Everybody who has insurance pays of the separate health issues of women and men. If you screw and get somebody pregnant consider that you fucked yourself.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The creature would have to be presented with not just the political aspects of humanity, but everything tied to politics... which is everything. Because politics do influence who and what we are; from what we do in our bedrooms, to where we send our kids off to school and even what quality food we eat.

So, it would not be fair to just sum things up with the ramblings of the "oddballs" from each side.

The creature would have to live amongst us, and I would elaborate on what each "thing" means. Why such and such issue is a big deal.

For the most part, the proverbial proof is in the pudding, to determine if humanity is like this creature's kind. And,... humanity is nothing like this creature's kind.

Remember the point of the exercise though, which is very basic. The creature isn't asking you to justify any position. It isn't even interested in any position or justification at all. In fact it doesn't even need to understand or know what those positions are. It isn't testing your values. It's testing your ability to empathize to the degree where you can state the position on something (in this case rape and abortion) which others have.

As you say one can appeal to extremes as representative, but if there is a general or majority consensus can you state it with a minimum of personal bias?

Specific example here and yes there are many potential dangers in this, but it is what it is.

Someone who is a traditional practicing Christian opposes abortion. From their perspective, why is this?

Someone else isn't and they support wide access to abortion. What do they believe?

If that Christian had his or her daughter raped would they believe it was justified? If there was pregnancy would there be internal conflict? Naturally the entire scope of possible response and behaviors would be exhibited by one or more individuals, but remember and this is important, it isn't about THEM, the other humans, but how YOU think and what you are able to consider. After all, you are going to face other creatures with very different sensibilities, and your species has a demonstrated intolerance to the point of extermination of your own, for that which is not what you have learned or were taught. Can you go beyond that even a bit and put yourself in the shoes of someone else?

 

[MagickMan]

I have my own answers to what you say here and they are hard word to express, but one thing is easy to pick up on. When you point out that I am no better than anybody else, it tells me that you are focused on that, that you are competitive and want to prevent me from taking some station above you. But none of that is of the slightest importance for me. I am not in a competition because I won that race long ago. I defeated the Nothing by dying to winning. The result of that was that I was stripped of everything which I thought had value and found a deeper reality, that being nothing is everything. I am the sole arbitrator of right and wrong because I lost everything in my head but opened my heart. It's not very hard to tell the difference, when you are empty of shit, to know who is also empty and who if full of it. You know it as sure as you know you won the battle of ego that never existed.

The truth about what we hide from ourselves in our feelings is terrible and ugly and you don't want to see it. I was forced to see it, lucky me. You just can't know anything as long as you cling to your stupid hideous ego. But don't forget that beneath all that is a wonderful person like me, and for you maybe even much better because bits and pieces of the ego self cling tight and are difficult to eradicate. I'm pretty much a nobody, really.

I have a right to property right up to the point I get taxed for the police bill Oh god, I'm enslaved. I have a right to defend myself, but the attorney wants money. My fucking rights are costing me out the ass.

Your ass is protected by the law and the Constitution so fucking pay the bill you sniveling wimp. Everybody who has insurance pays of the separate health issues of women and men. If you screw and get somebody pregnant consider that you fucked yourself.

You are, with no doubt, the textbook definition of a foaming-at-the-mouth, abusive, narcissist. Yeah, you're SO enlightened.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I find I align my political views with most of the Founding Fathers. This isn't about the Constitution and Declaration of Independence documentation only, but many of their side "ramblings" as well. I have read much of what they wrote, and what was written by those that they admired. I have also read much of political thoughts from other "great" thinkers from Marx, Mandella, Ghandi, and others. Not all I agree with though, because I said my thoughts I tend to align with the majority of Founding Fathers or what I believe how they would approach modern problems.

So why do I align my thoughts with those guys? 1) Most of them were pretty damn smart in this area of study. 2) What they setup put this nation on to the road that made us this great.

They set up the building blocks for all that have added on that came after them. They weren't perfect, and they made mistakes. However, their overall course and intent can be clearly seen and understood. Their ideas were sound on principle and very logical. So what do I believe in when it comes to political views? Here are the guiding principles.

1) Government should only be as big as it needs to be. It's a necessary evil. But government needs to step in when oversight, and regulation is called for, and step out when it is not needed for that anymore. Government is the parent on the playground supervising the kids having fun. For the most part the parent should let kids play and have fun. However, kids being kids will always mess up something somewhere. That's where the parent needs to step in, set up rules of boundaries for the kids to follow to prevent the mess-up and then let the kids be again. If the rule or boundary that was setup no longer needs to be, then it should be removed or at least re-evaluated.

2) Personal responsibility is key, but also going by the adage "you made your bed so lie in it" of a dog eat dog world is also not what the Founding Fathers envisioned either. A combination of neighbors helping neighbors as well as people taking ownership of their actions.

3) Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Those drawn to power aren't usually the best quality character people. As time goes on, more of those in positions of authority aren't going to be looking out for their fellow man any more. Positions of authority should actually be positions of servility, but corrupt people will always seek to change that around.



So with those principles in mind, where do I stand on major political wedge issues?

1) Abortion. I see both sides of the matter equally. I am a big fan of education to our children about the risks of having sex. I am a big fan of safe sex methods. As for actual abortion, I am fine with the current legislation of allowing abortion. I would also be fine with making it illegal except in special cases like rape or incest. I tend to lean more towards allowing abortion if done early on though. I understand accidents and shit happens. Like the safe sex method fails and the intent was not to get pregnant. Someone using "plan b" or even having an early on abortion within the first 20ish weeks is fine with me. Because it can be a hard decision to decide to keep it or not early on and a woman may decide a little later. By 20ish weeks a woman knows she is pregnant, and can make a rational decision of her future or not. After that time frame, I am not really in favor of late term abortions except in special cases where the life of the mother is threatened. By that time frame, a woman has had plenty of time to decide if they are ready to be a mother and make some decisions for her future. In my opinion, if a woman has waited to the third trimester, the decision is pretty much made by them to carry it to term IMHO. Delaying that long is the decision to bring the baby to term. To me that goes back to the guiding principle of personal responsibility for actions within consideration. Consideration is knowing that sometimes shit happens, and one doesn't expect to be pregnant or they determine early on they aren't ready to be a mother. Fine, early on realize the mistake and then have an abortion. Wait too long, and your decision is made the other way.

2) Fiscal responsibility. I believe in the government only being as big as it needs to be. I don't have a problem with government spending money to fix a problem in our society if it is something only the government can fix. But again, I believe in education over meddling any day. Take welfare and other government handout programs. I have no problem with having programs like this in our society. I've used unemployment and think it is a good thing to have. But again, I feel the government would do better to spend the money to help people help themselves instead of just being an "enabler" in allowing those that rather not contribute to society or their own well being from just living off the handouts from the government. I really think most of the "social netting" style government programs we have as a country need more scrutiny on how they work. If certain areas need to be expanded and can be justified for expansion, then I'm all for it. But I'm all for the opposite too. I also think social netting programs need to be constantly re-evaluated as well.

3) Taxes. Not a big fan of income taxes or property taxes. Not even really on sales taxes either. Originally the government was only allowed to tax international trade. I believe government taxation should only come from business profits, capital gains, and other forms of "profit" that people or businesses earn. Income tax was always viewed as a bad thing by the Founding Fathers and they were vehemently opposed to it as well as property taxes. That as well as taxation without representation. Giving the government the ability to seize what they want from the people through taxation was viewed as a bad idea by them. Taxes on income and property allow just such a avenue for the government to seize assets. Income for most people is trading labor for money. It is not a profit venture. Meaning there is no potential gains in the same way as profit ventures. I really wish the Founding Fathers had codified the national tax code a bit better personally. This to me was one of their mistakes, as they thought the income tax amendment would never happen.

4) Immigration. Really, I'm am pretty much a hard-liner here. Those that came here illegally, except the children dragged along, did so knowing the were violating the law. Now, I don't mind making it pretty damn easy for a person to migrate here, the current costs are pretty damn high and stupid right now IMHO, but I am against amnesty. Here's what I would do. Make it easier for those seeking legal migration. Right now one has to pass 2 written tests. English and Civics. While I know many conservations are big time for the English test, I am not. Who cares what a person speaks. I do think they should have the civics test though. Also the cost right now is like $640 or more. Way too high. $100 or whatever it costs for the administration fee to process a person is really what it should cost. Also the last requirement is the person not have a felony criminal record. However, those that entered already illegally should be given a 2 year grace period to allow them to apply for legal migration status after paying a penalty for being here illegally. That allows them to pay for their crime, and go the legal way or face deportation. I do believe our borders should be also beefed up as well.

5) Guns. I still can't believe this is a wedge issue. It's a right that shall not be infringed. Really I'm in major favor of making all children learn how to handle guns and gun safety as part of their normal schooling. I am also in favor of providing classes for adults as well. There are some major areas of basic education America as a society is really starting to lack overall. I'm not saying that everyone should own a gun, those that don't want to shouldn't. But I am saying that everyone should have a basic understanding of what they are and what they are not.

6) Healthcare. Here is a issue I think that the government needs to step in. The current situation of greed and corruption in the medical industry is hurting us as a nation. I do not like the current setup of insurance at all. Really I do not. Healthcare is a necessity to life and prosperity to this country. What I prefer to see happen is the following.
a) Prices must be known. All hospitals and providers must have a list of prices for known and regular procedures available to the public. Sellers of medical supplies and equipment must also have all their prices known. Right now prices in the US for anything related to healthcare is completely obfuscated on purpose to allow companies that make profit off the healthcare system to basically fleece the system. This is not the same as price controls. The problem is that since no one knows what the "competition" is charging for their service/item that there is no free market factors helping keep the prices down. In fact, there is tons of collusion and corruption keeping the prices arbitrarily inflated. Until hospital reach the point that a person can call to any of them and ask what they charge for a routine "appendectomy" and get the full amount quoted to them on the dime like damn near every other nation on this planet, then fair market forces won't be able to help keep healthcare costs down.
b) Government ran hospitals and graduate programs. For profit higher education institutions have a strangle hold on declaring who can be a "doctor" in this country and they know it. They charge a massive amount of money for doctor degree programs that mount a ton of debt on the student. Who in turn is expected to overcharge their patients to pay that back. That is a crock of shit. In conjunction with that, is for profit hospitals have a stranglehold on many markets in this nation. Again this is a crock of shit. I am whole heartedly for allowing the government to open up and either run or help run non profit schools to teach doctors and non profit hospitals that will employ them. Again, allow the fair market to help bring down prices but removing collusion, obfuscation, and increasing competition in the market.
c) A revamp of the whole pharma industry needs to be done. I'm not as sure as the measures to take here, but the is major problems that affect this industry as well as the entire medical supply industry. Patent trolls, and collusion are top of the list here. Government hand-outs without oversight are another.
d) If all those measures don't work well enough (I would be amazed if they didn't) then steps to make all healthcare insurance programs be non profit OR a single payer system need to be used next. This should be a last resort.

7) Climate change debate. Yep climate change is happening. I am all for reducing pollution and laws that crack down hard on it. I'm all for research into our environment. I'm not for knee jerk reactionary feel good laws that may or may not actually help the environment. How much of the climate change is man made I do not know and neither do the scientists. How much of the changes we can control, I do not know and really neither do the scientists right now. That doesn't mean it is still not a bad idea to take preventative measures to save the environment from human actions. But chicken little attitudes of the sky is falling and we'll all be dead in 10 years is a bit annoying. Especially when that attitude is used to drive reactionary legislation that does more to line pockets than to combat environment problems from human sources.

8) Military. Having served in the military and from a huge military family, I can have some experience others here may not. It's too big and the military does too much is pretty much my opinion. We shouldn't be the worlds police force just because we have the "best" military on the planet. The problem is that wars = money, and so corrupt politicians will always seek to justify it. That being said, I also see the military as overall a good experience for everyone. I would have no problem of instituting a mandatory 1 or 2 year enrolment for all US citizens into the military or government service organization. Call it the last year of "high school" or whatever.

Those are the bigger general category "wedge" issues I can think of and where I stand. I'm pretty damn moderate in my view based on the current measuring stick of what constitutes far left or far right.

Thank you for a very well thought out post. I can say I agree with some of it very strongly, other parts I disagree with, but that's to be expected. However, you presented it in a sane, straightforward, non-reactionary way.

I think we may vote differently, but see a lot of the same solutions to the biggest problems. I sincerely wish our elected officials would finally put away the petty disagreements and meet half way. You are going to have to sacrifice something in a compromise. That's just the nature of the beast.

 

[Newell Steamer]

As you say one can appeal to extremes as representative, but if there is a general or majority consensus can you state it with a minimum of personal bias?

If it wants text book responses; yes. Examples and answers to your questions,...

Someone who is a traditional practicing Christian opposes abortion. From their perspective, why is this?

Textbook response: it is their interpretation and belief to oppose the ability to abort an unborn child.

Someone else isn't and they support wide access to abortion. What do they believe?

Textbook response: they believe, and it is the law, that the fetus is a part of a woman's body (until a certain period) and can be aborted.

If that Christian had his or her daughter raped would they believe it was justified?

Justified, no. Nonetheless, they would treat it as an event in their lives they hope will strengthen their faith and belief in God, since it occured for a reason.

If there was pregnancy would there be internal conflict?

Yes, there would be conflict. However, I do not know of any Christian woman, who was raped and kept her rapist's child. I can only assume that is how they would act, based on their faith. But, when going to the hospital to be treated for rape, I can only assume the victim is automatically given meds to prevent/stop preganacy (not abort, but, again - prevent conception).

Naturally the entire scope of possible response and behaviors would be exhibited by one or more individuals, but remember and this is important, it isn't about THEM, the other humans, but how YOU think and what you are able to consider. After all, you are going to face other creatures with very different sensibilities, and your species has a demonstrated intolerance to the point of extermination of your own, for that which is not what you have learned or were taught. Can you go beyond that even a bit and put yourself in the shoes of someone else?

Devoid of emotions and what I thought was right/wrong - yes. Simply stating what is the stance of each side.

 

[piasabird]

Don't ask others to pay for your child, or pay for your abortion, or pay for birth control. Make your choice and then PAY PAY PAY PAY PAY FOR IT.