Listening to and considering the 'other side'

[Hayabusa Rider]

Let's have a look.

Textbook response: it is their interpretation and belief to oppose the ability to abort an unborn child.

Textbook response: they believe, and it is the law, that the fetus is a part of a woman's body (until a certain period) and can be aborted.

I think we've cut to the chase somewhat. The alien is merely an artifice, a motivator to have you provide an answer from the perspective of another. I didn't ask for textbook. I didn't ask for a moral judgement. I wanted to see if you could put yourself in their shoes and see things as they do before making value judgement. That is not perfectly accomplished because we all see the world through our own experiences, however the effort to do so is essential in itself. If one does not make a good faith effort then no understanding or compromise can be reached. We have what we have today.

My admittedly imperfect answers would be that the first group holds that the fetus is more than a collection of cells, that it is the embodiment of human life, and therefore has rights of its own even though not fully developed

The other side might say that a woman has a right of reproductive self determination and that there is no objective evidence that a fetus is in fact human. That being the case no one has any right to tell her that she has to bear something she never wanted. The hypothetical argument of the other side ought not to bind her to their beliefs.

Here's the thing. I may be completely wrong in some cases. I may (no, have) oversimplified and generalized too much, but how I have framed things allows for amplification, clarification and discussion. If I had taken the position of "They just want to enslave women" or "They just want to murder babies" I have completely misrepresented both sides and cut off any hope at all for an improvement on the issue. In fact I've done the reverse. Also note that I have not approved of anything. I haven't taken my perspective to be used as a club to beat one side or the other. That does not mean I cannot have strong feelings myself, or must be ambivalent. But it's not about "winning" the argument, because that cannot be done by beating the ideological drum. One can shout all one likes, but if you cannot listen and have others listen then everyone is deaf.

 

[Victorian Gray]

That is corporate influence in our government. Democrats, republicans, liberals, and conservatives all bow to the all mighty dollar.

Dont forget bill clinton signed gatt and nafta after promising not to during the election.

Clinton was always a supporter of NAFTA. I think that you're confusing him with Obama who, during the primaries before his first term, made public noises about renegotiating it while quietly assuring the Canadian govt. that wasn't really what he'd do.

 

[Texashiker]

Clinton was always a supporter of NAFTA.

Negative, during the first election against president bush, clinton ran on a platform saying he would not sign nafta or gatt.

Once elected he flipped on the issue.

 

[LunarRay]

Negative, during the first election against president bush, clinton ran on a platform saying he would not sign nafta or gatt.

Once elected he flipped on the issue.

I voted for Perot!!!

He had the right position on the issues economically. I heard both Clinton and Bush, the elder stake out positions on the matter and Hillariously as a Senator support Bill's position up until she ran against Obama.... THEN I looked up at my wall and wondered if all the effort I put into getting the wall paper that I viewed was worth it since only one voice in the wilderness thought like me... and he had a funny voice and big ears.... but he was right....

 

[Moonbeam]

You are, with no doubt, the textbook definition of a foaming-at-the-mouth, abusive, narcissist. Yeah, you're SO enlightened.

I'm sorry, but you are a person who knows that I post from multiple accounts on multiple forums when I actually have only one account and post on this one, and with rare exceptions in L&R or OT and are sure just because you think you can see the same writing style that is your total hallucination since I am not LunarRay and could no more write like him than fly. Now, having proved to me that you are a total fool who actually believes what isn't true, you announce some other pile of horse shit that you also believe and expect me to take it seriously. You are barking mad, as LunarRay would say, and a fucking nutcase as I would say it. You have zero credibility.

 

[MagickMan]

I'm sorry, but you are a person who knows that I post from multiple accounts on multiple forums when I actually have only one account and post on this one, and with rare exceptions in L&R or OT and are sure just because you think you can see the same writing style that is your total hallucination since I am not LunarRay and could no more write like him than fly. Now, having proved to me that you are a total fool who actually believes what isn't true, you announce some other pile of horse shit that you also believe and expect me to take it seriously. You are barking mad, as LunarRay would say, and a fucking nutcase as I would say it. You have zero credibility.

As I said elsewhere:

What motivates my thinking here is the observation of your repetitive, sociopathic behavior, that's characterized by fits of rage, gross egotism, and blatant hypocrisy. You abuse people for doing a thing, then do that same thing yourself. Profane anger and attempts at intimidation are your tools against those who voice differing opinions (common around here), however you profess to have an enlightened perspective. When the irony of that is brought up, you meet it with even more hostility and attempt to deflect it all back at the observer.

You aren't converting anyone with that behavior, all you're doing is enjoying emotional release from being an asshole while attempting to wear the guise of a wise and righteous person. IOW, you're far worse than those who make no grandiose claims and push people further away from whatever grand insights you proclaim to have discovered. If none of your new-age psycho/spiritual "perspectives" have made you a better person, why should anyone look at them as anything more than bullshit and evidence of your own mental illness? :hmm:

Don't shoot the messenger, you're the one constantly running around raving and insulting, while attempting to wave the banner of truth and righteousness. If you didn't act like such a big, fat fraud, people like me wouldn't call you on it. :\

 

[zinfamous]

It was legal to own slaves then. What side of the law are you on?

This goes back to you being a hypocrite.

You favor abortion because it is legal. But you slam Texas for doing something that was legal?

oh, so now it's cool...but when you mention legal slavery with an old "democrat" in a photo, it is worthy of scorn?

you make no sense.

 

[LunarRay]

As I said elsewhere:




Don't shoot the messenger, you're the one constantly running around raving and insulting, while attempting to wave the banner of truth and righteousness. If you didn't act like such a big, fat fraud, people like me wouldn't call you on it. :\

The mirror is the messenger! You see what is reflected. No matter how pretty or ugly is the reflection it is you!

 

[JulesMaximus]

My mindset is that all life is important. Especially so for children who can not speak for themselves.

I'm curious why you care at all?

Personally, I couldn't possibly care less if a complete stranger has an abortion. It ranks right up there with what color my neighbor paints his house. Actually, that probably matters more to me.

 

[Moonbeam]

As I said elsewhere:




Don't shoot the messenger, you're the one constantly running around raving and insulting, while attempting to wave the banner of truth and righteousness. If you didn't act like such a big, fat fraud, people like me wouldn't call you on it. :\

A guy who doesn't admit what a fraud he is sure would see fraud in everybody else by projection. What you do is pretend I'm a fraud but you proved to me you are. You ain't even ashamed to stick your red and blue baboon butt in front of the whole forum, trying to get a poke in on me because you got a hot bean up your ass. If you ain't able to shut you're butt hurt ass, I'm only too happy to inform the folk what an ass you are. So why don't you run along and play with your other account, Alky. Just don't tell anybody that you are really me, my account that I beat up on to show how superior I am to my pretended nobody, MagickMan. I bet they didn't see that one coming.

 

[LunarRay]

I'm curious why you care at all?

Personally, I couldn't possibly care less if a complete stranger has an abortion. It ranks right up there with what color my neighbor paints his house. Actually, that probably matters more to me.

It is about the When.... When does a fetus gain Rights under the Constitution... It is a legitimate concern for all Americans... But, it has to be contextualized in the society we created back when... Things change over time as society deems fit to adopt. Abortion is one of those things that has strong views from different quarters... the Religious dogma generally claims at conception while others claim at viability.... Since we have to compromise somewhere given we are all citizens regardless of our views the only rational thing to do is rely on what the majority say in lieu of an amendment taking the Courts out of it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The mirror is the messenger! You see what is reflected. No matter how pretty or ugly is the reflection it is you!

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together
See how they run like pigs from a gun see how they fly
I'm crying

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm curious why you care at all?

Personally, I couldn't possibly care less if a complete stranger has an abortion. It ranks right up there with what color my neighbor paints his house. Actually, that probably matters more to me.

That's terrible. Life is sacred and paint is just paint. It's sad you don't seem to know that.

The issue IS that life is sacred which means that individuals have rights over their bodies greater than the right of a yet to be person. There are two absolutes that clash and only human decisions can resolve them. There is a right to life which is absolute and a right to control your own body which is also absolute. Nature puts these two emotional feelings into conflict. A woman who does not want a child can become pregnant. Texashiker believes that in such a case we are talking about a real human being with full legal rights and by doing so would turn the woman into a prisoner of the fetus. The notion that a person without personhood should take priority over a person with personhood is logically absurd but the bigot sees only the right of the child and not the right of the mother. We determined in a secular society that the notion of when life as a legal person begins is not a matter of religion, but the duty of a secular state that must prevent religious beliefs from governing the lives of folk who do not believe them. That is why a line was drawn as to when a fetus becomes a person legally and that the decision up to then to carry or not belongs only to the mother.

Texashiker, by his bigoted notion that there is only the absolute right of the fetus involved and the wishes of the woman be damned, is simply out of step with how we run the country. He cares more about his bigotry and his absolute silly belief, than he does what it would be like if we enslaved women to the will of bigots like him. It would be very much like passing a law that says women have the right to pick any man they want to help them carry to term, any organs they might need for transplant to the fetus, or blood or money to pay doctor bills. He's just a little Nazi disguised behind his goodie two shoes morality even though that morality, all other things being equal, applies and is perfectly rational. He thinks he loves women but in fact he would vote to turn their bodies into incubator slaves.

 

[LunarRay]

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together
See how they run like pigs from a gun see how they fly
I'm crying

hehehehe, Jooba jooba

 

[MagickMan]

The mirror is the messenger! You see what is reflected. No matter how pretty or ugly is the reflection it is you!

A guy who doesn't admit what a fraud he is sure would see fraud in everybody else by projection. What you do is pretend I'm a fraud but you proved to me you are. You ain't even ashamed to stick your red and blue baboon butt in front of the whole forum, trying to get a poke in on me because you got a hot bean up your ass. If you ain't able to shut you're butt hurt ass, I'm only too happy to inform the folk what an ass you are. So why don't you run along and play with your other account, Alky. Just don't tell anybody that you are really me, my account that I beat up on to show how superior I am to my pretended nobody, MagickMan. I bet they didn't see that one coming.

You aren't a mirror, but you sure do try to deflect like one. That doesn't even make sense, now you're just babbling in a rage, trying to keep your little house of cards from toppling over. Deflect, deflect, deflect. Since you're a hypocrite and a spiritual fraud, that's all you have left. I was 100% on the mark;

"You abuse people for doing a thing, then do that same thing yourself. Profane anger and attempts at intimidation are your tools against those who voice differing opinions (common around here), however you profess to have an enlightened perspective. When the irony of that is brought up, you meet it with even more hostility and attempt to deflect it all back at the observer."

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Luke 6:45

The claim that you're "a mirror" and only "using their words against them" doesn't jive there, does it? :hmm:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matthew 7:15

Tell me more about my eyes? :\

 

[LunarRay]

You aren't a mirror, but you sure do try to deflect like one. That doesn't even make sense, now you're just babbling in a rage, trying to keep your little house of cards from toppling over. Deflect, deflect, deflect. Since you're a hypocrite and a spiritual fraud, that's all you have left. I was 100% on the mark;

"You abuse people for doing a thing, then do that same thing yourself. Profane anger and attempts at intimidation are your tools against those who voice differing opinions (common around here), however you profess to have an enlightened perspective. When the irony of that is brought up, you meet it with even more hostility and attempt to deflect it all back at the observer."

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Luke 6:45

The claim that you're "a mirror" and only "using their words against them" doesn't jive there, does it? :hmm:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matthew 7:15

Tell me more about my eyes? :\

Huh?

That, if anything, posted above that is relevant to the bit you quoted from my post makes sense to you perhaps but I don't follow it.

I'll try to clarify my post....
'The messenger is the mirror' suggests what you say to others is what you're saying to your self. You may direct it outwards or to Moonbeam but it comes from you to you. You need only consider what you say to know who you are.

You could say... Well Moonbeam calls me a this or that.... That would be true. He is acting as a mirror... You then could say... Well I'm acting like a mirror too... back at him... and you'd be into an infinite regression. So the question becomes which is the mirror and what is the message.

The answer is simple.... What motivates what is said... initially! Is the comment to that initial statement describing the motivator accurately.... Only by looking into the mirror will the observation of that be had.
I have found, however, that if I look at a mirror in the darkness I see darkness and if I look in the light I see the light...

 

[Moonbeam]

You aren't a mirror, but you sure do try to deflect like one. That doesn't even make sense, now you're just babbling in a rage, trying to keep your little house of cards from toppling over. Deflect, deflect, deflect. Since you're a hypocrite and a spiritual fraud, that's all you have left. I was 100% on the mark;

"You abuse people for doing a thing, then do that same thing yourself. Profane anger and attempts at intimidation are your tools against those who voice differing opinions (common around here), however you profess to have an enlightened perspective. When the irony of that is brought up, you meet it with even more hostility and attempt to deflect it all back at the observer."

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." - Luke 6:45

The claim that you're "a mirror" and only "using their words against them" doesn't jive there, does it? :hmm:

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." Matthew 7:15

Tell me more about my eyes? :\

More about your eyes. You hate yourself and do not know it because you feel you are a worthless piece of shit and it would hurt to feel it. I tell you this and you have a fit denying it absolutely. So instead I tell you not that you feel like a worthless piece of shit but that you are a worthless piece of shit. Now I have your attention. I have you by the balls, filled with anger and contempt for that little hypocrite, Moonbeam, who dares to say we are all OK, and turns around and calls others shit. Now I have gotten you to project on me how you really feel, how you really feel, not about me, but about yourself, just as I told you you did.

Now I have provided you with the self justification to express the hate you feel for me which is the hate you feel for yourself. Now you see yourself in the mirror. The only difference between what I call you and what you call me is that I know what I am doing. My intent is not to put you down but to make you see how put down you already feel.

You are in denial and I expose you because you not will transcend your self hate unless you end your denial that it is there keeping you from being who you really are. You see in me a monster who hurts others. You are that very monster to your true self, the most valuable person in the universe. I will not bother you at all when you love what you see in the mirror.

 

[MagickMan]

More about your eyes. You hate yourself and do not know it because you feel you are a worthless piece of shit and it would hurt to feel it. I tell you this and you have a fit denying it absolutely. So instead I tell you not that you feel like a worthless piece of shit but that you are a worthless piece of shit. Now I have your attention. I have you by the balls, filled with anger and contempt for that little hypocrite, Moonbeam, who dares to say we are all OK, and turns around and calls others shit. Now I have gotten you to project on me how you really feel, how you really feel, not about me, but about yourself, just as I told you you did.

Now I have provided you with the self justification to express the hate you feel for me which is the hate you feel for yourself. Now you see yourself in the mirror. The only difference between what I call you and what you call me is that I know what I am doing. My intent is not to put you down but to make you see how put down you already feel.

You are in denial and I expose you because you not will transcend your self hate unless you end your denial that it is there keeping you from being who you really are. You see in me a monster who hurts others. You are that very monster to your true self, the most valuable person in the universe. I will not bother you at all when you love what you see in the mirror.

Deflection, again, but this time with some projection too. No, I don't hate myself, in any way, shape, or form. What I do hate, however, is hypocrisy, and you embody that here on this forum. You're an egotistical, sadistic bigot, lashing out and projecting your rage on everyone else.

I love shining a light on bitchy, faux-religious hatemongers like you. You get so shrill and show your true colors, like you have in several threads in the last couple days, tearing your professed righteousness to shreds. It's sad that some people even believed you had some type of wisdom for them, when in reality you're more deranged and lost than they are, trying to feed them recycled New Age rubbish that died-out before disco. :whiste: That's pitiful.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Deflection, again, but this time with some projection too. No, I don't hate myself, in any way, shape, or form. What I do hate, however, is hypocrisy, and you embody that here on this forum. You're an egotistical, sadistic bigot, lashing out and projecting your rage on everyone else.

I love shining a light on bitchy, faux-religious hatemongers like you. You get so shrill and show your true colors, like you have in several threads in the last couple days, tearing your professed righteousness to shreds. It's sad that some people even believed you had some type of wisdom for them, when in reality you're more deranged and lost than they are, trying to feed them recycled New Age rubbish that died-out before disco. :whiste: That's pitiful.

Jeez Louise, what a drama queen!

If a few words posted on an anonymous, on-line forum pull this kind of reaction from you I have no idea how you manage dealing with real life.

It's the internet, relax....

 

[Moonbeam]

Deflection, again, but this time with some projection too. No, I don't hate myself, in any way, shape, or form. What I do hate, however, is hypocrisy, and you embody that here on this forum. You're an egotistical, sadistic bigot, lashing out and projecting your rage on everyone else.

I love shining a light on bitchy, faux-religious hatemongers like you. You get so shrill and show your true colors, like you have in several threads in the last couple days, tearing your professed righteousness to shreds. It's sad that some people even believed you had some type of wisdom for them, when in reality you're more deranged and lost than they are, trying to feed them recycled New Age rubbish that died-out before disco. :whiste: That's pitiful.

But you have no pity, don't you see?

 

[dmcowen674]

Listening to and considering the 'other side'

In this forum I get a healthy dose of opinions that disagree with mine. I feel fairly stuck in my positions and often when I read an opposite view, I wonder, "How could anyone feel like that?"

But of course they do and I could stand listening with a more open mind. Although it doesn't swing me in their direction, I appreciate how strong folks feel because I know the depth of my own positions. I even learn more about my own feelings by being aware of others' in fascinating, mostly adult conversations.

So I really appreciate AT because otherwise I wouldn't hear those voices since I tune out that side of the media.

All this brings me greater respect for those who disagree with me. The only thing I have trouble with here are all the insults. It feels like the 5th grade sometimes, and they only seem to hurt one's argument. I'm likely to tune out those bent on animosity.

Do you check out the other side outside of this forum? Do conversations with people who disagree with you peak your interest, or get you riled up? I'm somewhere in between and moving toward interest.

This has been a good place to see how history repeats itself because of man's built in defects mainly greed.

Also see how Wars start.

We are getting very close to another one especially right here in the U.S.

Which side will you be on?

The side that starts the revolt or the side that get's it's ass kicked?

 

[MagickMan]

But you have no pity, don't you see?

Make some of your own. Those people that you claim are brain damaged, where's theirs? Why none for those who you believe walk in darkness? I see clearly. “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" You seem to pretend that this forum is congregation, yet you treat half of them like shit. How is that righteous?

 

[MagickMan]

Jeez Louise, what a drama queen!

If a few words posted on an anonymous, on-line forum pull this kind of reaction from you I have no idea how you manage dealing with real life.

It's the internet, relax....

Nov 2013, eh? After a while longer you'll see that he'll abuse and insult people in one post and then turn around and preach about how Godly and righteous he is in the next, that hypocrisy is what rubs many people on this forum the wrong way.

This has been a good place to see how history repeats itself because of man's built in defects mainly greed.

Also see how Wars start.

We are getting very close to another one especially right here in the U.S.

Which side will you be on?

The side that starts the revolt or the side that get's it's ass kicked?

Go ahead, you start it and get the ball rolling, Rambo.

 

[compuwiz1]

This has been a good place to see how history repeats itself because of man's built in defects mainly greed.

Also see how Wars start.

We are getting very close to another one especially right here in the U.S.

Which side will you be on?

The side that starts the revolt or the side that get's it's ass kicked?

All I can say is that people of your ilk should be very afraid. The war that will begin here in the USA will happen when the true patriots in this country have had enough shit from your kind. Those who care about God, Country and our rights......those kinds of people. The guys who didn't pussy out and turn in their guns......the guys who didn't buy into global warming....the guys who didn't run out and buy a Prius to reduce our carbon footprint, because someone said we should. When the war that you seem to want to rush finaly gets here, it will be yours who will be the first to fall.....the bloody liberals. The insane ones will be the first to start eating their own babies, spelling the end of the disease that is liberalism. The infestation of the ideology will be what is to blame and you'll damn it all to hell then, but it will be too late.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
This has been a good place to see how history repeats itself because of man's built in defects mainly greed.

Also see how Wars start.

We are getting very close to another one especially right here in the U.S.

Which side will you be on?

The side that starts the revolt or the side that get's it's ass kicked?

All I can say is that people of your ilk should be very afraid. The war that will begin here in the USA will happen when the true patriots in this country have had enough shit from your kind. Those who care about God, Country and our rights......those kinds of people. The guys who didn't pussy out and turn in their guns......the guys who didn't buy into global warming....the guys who didn't run out and buy a Prius to reduce our carbon footprint, because someone said we should. When the war that you seem to want to rush finaly gets here, it will be yours who will be the first to fall.....the bloody liberals. The insane ones will be the first to start eating their own babies, spelling the end of the disease that is liberalism. The infestation of the ideology will be what is to blame and you'll damn it all to hell then, but it will be too late.

Hysterical

History and just plain math will conquer the fake God fearing, Country hating greedy bastards.

You really expect 1% to beat 99?

This is why History repeats itself.