Let's talk NBA

[HendrixFan]

If you honestly believe that Lebron, Kobe, Durant, or Melo would carve up the Detroit Bad Boys or Celtics of the 1980s and average 38 ppg there's no point in having a conversation anymore. We're light years apart.

I'll flip it then. Why do you think that despite the current resurgence in great players, the dead period of the early 00s had triple the number of players that could put up 20ppg? Can you even name 25 guys who were 20ppg players from that era?

Why wouldn't some of the deadliest one on one scorers be able to carve up Detroit or Boston of the 80s. Bear in mind, because of the defensive rules of the time, it wouldn't have been Durant against the Celtics, it would have been Durant against Bird, with no help defense.

 

[HendrixFan]

Jordan would have NEVER left the Bulls to join two other top 10 players to form a super team. I'm sorry that shit would have never happened and it does diminish Lebron's ring IMHO.

Right, he got to stay at home and play with two other HoFers. The Bulls were smart enough/lucky enough to bring quality to him. One was a top 50 of all time player and the other was the greatest rebounder the game has ever seen. It is a foolish thing to say what Jordan would have done because we don't know. If you saddled him with a borderline all star who only got one appearance as a reserve and that was only due to injury as his best help he might have stuck around. But he also would have certainly not won a single championship.

Teams win in the NBA. They always have. Having a couple hall of famers on your team can drastically improve it.

 

[QueBert]

Jordan would have NEVER left the Bulls to join two other top 10 players to form a super team. I'm sorry that shit would have never happened and it does diminish Lebron's ring IMHO.

And James would have never left the Bulls team Jordan had. Nobody would walk away from Pippen & Rodman. Take a time machine and put Jordan from back then to 7 years ago on the Cav's, do you honestly believe he would have stuck around to play with Mo fucking Williams and uhhh whoever else was on the team? You CANNOT compare Jordans Bull's team to James Cleveland team. Jodan stuck with a solid ass team, where Lebron walked away from a team that had exactly 1 good player, and he honestly wasn't even all that great.


You know what sticking with a so-so team gets you? If not ask Sir Charles Barkley, he was loyal and got no rings. What's more important loyalty or rings? And let's be clear if Jordan was James age and played on the same Cavs team instead of James, and stuck with them. He would be retiring with exactly zero rings. Magic didn't stick with the Lakers because he was loyal, and Bird didn't stick with Boston because he was loyal. It's easy to stick with a winning team.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

so sick of the LBJ MJ comparisons...cant watch ESPN

Agreed.

I like how you agree that you're sick of the LBJ / MJ comparisons, and then proceed to post several more responses arguing in favor of who was better. This is why this strategy works so well for ESPN. People may say they're sick of it, but in reality, they eat it up. Half of what drives our enjoyment of sports is the narrative about who is better than who, where does this guy rank against the greatest of all time, etc. It's why we become obsessive stat hounds, using obscure metrics like PER or win shares to try to give a numeric value to what we're seeing on the court. At the end of the day, we'll never get to see Jordan and LeBron play each other in their prime, they played in different eras under different rules against different competition, and the comparison is entirely subjective, so there's no "right" answer. But it's fun, and it keeps us interested, and that's a perfectly fine way to enjoy sports.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Jordan would have NEVER left the Bulls to join two other top 10 players to form a super team. I'm sorry that shit would have never happened and it does diminish Lebron's ring IMHO.

Did he have the option to? NBA contracts were structured very differently in the 1980s-90s (Magic Johnson famously signed a 25 year contract in the early 1980s, something which literally could not happen today). If I'm reading this page correctly, the only chance Michael Jordan ever had to test free agency was in 1988, since his other forays into free agency in the mid-90s were covered by the free agent exception rule and his contract continued throughout his first retirement and baseball career. Granted, by 1988, he had already compiled an impressive resume of career stats, including the highest ppg total of anyone besides Wilt Chamberlain, but was there a team out there he could have joined to make a super team? The Lakers were full-up and winning championships, as were the Celtics, and he didn't want to go to the Pistons (since Isiah Thomas and Jordan HATED each other). Where could he have gone that could offer a better situation than Chicago? And did he even have the opportunity, or would he have been covered by the free agent exemption rule in 1988 as well?

 

[darkewaffle]

I think the GOAT will be the synthetic hybrid we make of Jordan's and James DNA about fifty years from now. LeBron Jordan, you could even put some Kobe in there and make LeBryant Jordan. Worthy candidates might also be LeBird Jordan or LeMagic Jordan.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

You know what sticking with a so-so team gets you? If not ask Sir Charles Barkley, he was loyal and got no rings. What's more important loyalty or rings? And let's be clear if Jordan was James age and played on the same Cavs team instead of James, and stuck with them. He would be retiring with exactly zero rings. Magic didn't stick with the Lakers because he was loyal, and Bird didn't stick with Boston because he was loyal. It's easy to stick with a winning team.

Chuck wasn't that loyal; he bolted from the Suns to join the Rockets after they won back-to-back championships with Drexler and Olajuwon, only to come up against a triumvirate of roadblocks in the form of a powerhouse Jazz team, a resurgent Sonics team, and the return of Jordan to the Bulls. That Suns team in the early 90s was one of the most entertaining teams to watch too, with Barkley and KJ and Majerle and Ceballos. Chuck shoulda stuck with them.

 

[HendrixFan]

I like how you agree that you're sick of the LBJ / MJ comparisons, and then proceed to post several more responses arguing in favor of who was better.

I have done no such thing. I even directly clarified my stance more than once, that the comparison between the two is silly. My posts stress how different things were/are for them, not what makes one better than the other. Apples and oranges.

 

[child of wonder]

I think the GOAT will be the synthetic hybrid we make of Jordan's and James DNA about fifty years from now. LeBron Jordan, you could even put some Kobe in there and make LeBryant Jordan. Worthy candidates might also be LeBird Jordan or LeMagic Jordan.

LeKwame Jorppen

 

[child of wonder]

I'll flip it then. Why do you think that despite the current resurgence in great players, the dead period of the early 00s had triple the number of players that could put up 20ppg? Can you even name 25 guys who were 20ppg players from that era?

Why wouldn't some of the deadliest one on one scorers be able to carve up Detroit or Boston of the 80s. Bear in mind, because of the defensive rules of the time, it wouldn't have been Durant against the Celtics, it would have been Durant against Bird, with no help defense.

Who scored 20+ ppg from the early 2000's? I'll go from memory (no Googling) of guys that played from the 1999-2000 season through the 2005-2006 season then circle around and see who I got wrong.

Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Reggie Miller - nope
Latrell Sprewell - nope
Grant Hill
Vince Carter
Tracy McGrady
Karl Malone
Gary Payton
Shaquille O'Neal
Jermaine O'Neal
Paul Pierce
Antoine Walker
Rip Hamilton
Jerry Stackhouse
Amare Stoudemire
Michael Jordan
Peja Stojakovic
Allen Iverson
Stephon Marbury
Ricky Davis
Dirk Nowitzki
Michael Finley
Vin Baker - nope
Mike James

That's all I can think of for now.

EDIT: got a couple wrong. Showing my age by thinking some guys from the mid-late 90s were still 20+ ppg scorers in the 2000's.

No, it would NOT have been Durant vs. Bird with no help defense. Go watch some Youtube videos of games back then, especially in the playoffs. Good lord....

 

[HendrixFan]

Who scored 20+ ppg from the early 2000's? I'll go from memory (no Googling) of guys that played from the 1999-2000 season through the 2005-2006 season then circle around and see who I got wrong.

How many of those guys could pull 20ppg with the defenses today? Look at those names you listed, many of those guys weren't even all stars, or were borderline once or twice all stars.

The game has changed, defenses are light years ahead of where they were years ago. That is why it is difficult to compare players 20 years apart, certainly when using raw stats.

No, it would NOT have been Durant vs. Bird with no help defense. Go watch some Youtube videos of games back then, especially in the playoffs. Good lord....

I do routinely watch older games, especially during the long dull summer months where there is no NBA to watch. I have over 100 games in my collection so I don't have to bother with hoping stuff is up on youtube.

There is a huge difference between the allowance of hard fouls/cheap shots back in the day and true help defense. The rules of the game at the time simply did not allow for sophisticated defenses and gave a player carte blanche to try and exploit a defender by himself.

If you are watching the Heat/Thunder game tonight, look at some of the early traps Durant is seeing. He is being doubled as far as 40 feet out, on occasion even without the ball. That simply would not have been legal in the 80s. The advantage an elite scorer has being able to pick their spots with impunity is huge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto2_oYVs0I

The "help" defense back in the day was different not only because you couldn't double without the ball, but also because when you leave your player to help out the rest of your team can't zone the remaining players. When you have 3 guys guarding 4 away from the ball but have to stick with a man defense you are in trouble. How many clips from this game do you see a double come to Bird, him just sit there and dribble in place as the double team has to cheat back to his player, giving him an ISO again? Do you see Melo or Durant just standing and watching a double disappear? Please.

 

[QueBert]

Tonight made 7 games in a row with 30+ points for James. JEBUS this dude is a monster, in any other era of the NBA James would have been MVP every single season.

 

[HopJokey]

Tonight made 7 games in a row with 30+ points for James. JEBUS this dude is a monster, in any other era of the NBA James would have been MVP every single season.

Yea but he only shot 58% breaking his streaking of 30+ pts 60+ FG%...

Dude should retire, smh

 

[dbk]

Today's NBA is wayyyyy softer with no big men and the rules are skewed towards offense... Would James' sheer athleticism be enough for him to duplicate the same feat in the 90s? 80s? Would he just be dunking on everyone?

 

[tygeezy]

Today's NBA is wayyyyy softer with no big men and the rules are skewed towards offense... Would James' sheer athleticism be enough for him to duplicate the same feat in the 90s? 80s? Would he just be dunking on everyone?

He would absolutely destroy the 80s. The game was so fast paced, there was no handchecking and zone wasn't aloud.

 

[tygeezy]

Tonight made 7 games in a row with 30+ points for James. JEBUS this dude is a monster, in any other era of the NBA James would have been MVP every single season.

LeBron James is on pace to win the LeBron James of the year award.

 

[HendrixFan]

Read an article today that DRose isn't able to dunk yet. I know rehabbing an ACL is tough but that seems like he is not progressing very well. It would be unfortunate if he doesn't come back as at least 95% of the player he was before.

 

[I.M.Weasel]

I've been told he's taking care of himself and he'll return when he is ready is the impression I got.

 

[QueBert]

ESPN claims Rose told them he'll return when he's 110%, which sounds weird, but at least he didn't go chick on Maury and throw out 7500% or something. Can't wait for Rose & Rondo to make it back. Being a Celtics fan I'm hoping someone Rondo makes it back next season. Crazy to see them playing better right now without him. Celtics might be old and not the most talented squad, but shit they have so much heart and grit.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Isn't it weird how the top 3 point guards of the past 5 years have all had some serious injuries that caused them to miss large chunks of time? Makes me nervous for Kyrie Irving and Russell Westbrook.

And Tony Parker, I suppose. I always forget about that guy. He's sneaky good.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Isn't it weird how the top 3 point guards of the past 5 years have all had some serious injuries that caused them to miss large chunks of time? Makes me nervous for Kyrie Irving and Russell Westbrook.

And Tony Parker, I suppose. I always forget about that guy. He's sneaky good.

Smallest guy on the court with the ball in his hands the most is a bad combo.

 

[DesiPower]

lolakers

 

[dougp]

And Tony Parker, I suppose. I always forget about that guy. He's sneaky good.

Has there ever been another Finals MVP who was as looked over/forgetten as much as Parker is?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Has there ever been another Finals MVP who was as looked over/forgetten as much as Parker is?

Chauncey Billups?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Has there ever been another Finals MVP who was as looked over/forgetten as much as Parker is?

Playing with Duncan and nothing particularly flashy about his game has hurt him. Also being a Spur. If he was a Laker he'd be the goat according to the media.