Let's talk NBA

[dbk]

so sick of the LBJ MJ comparisons...cant watch ESPN

 

[HendrixFan]

so sick of the LBJ MJ comparisons...cant watch ESPN

Agreed. Completely different style of players, completely different era/rules. ESPN is the "best" as eschewing real analysis of games and instead focusing on whatever broad soap opera aspect they can sell. That way they don't need real experts or don't ever have to be wrong. As long as most sports fans are clueless idiots who don't understand the sport and only watch it due to peer pressure of having to fit in at the watercooler, ESPN will continue to provide nothing close to real analysis of games.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Agreed. Completely different style of players, completely different era/rules. ESPN is the "best" as eschewing real analysis of games and instead focusing on whatever broad soap opera aspect they can sell. That way they don't need real experts or don't ever have to be wrong. As long as most sports fans are clueless idiots who don't understand the sport and only watch it due to peer pressure of having to fit in at the watercooler, ESPN will continue to provide nothing close to real analysis of games.

They also have the best ratings, so apparently this soap opera stuff is working for them.

 

[HendrixFan]

They also have the best ratings, so apparently this soap opera stuff is working for them.

Again, most sports fans are clueless. They watch the ball and not the play.

I for one don't expect it to change for the better anytime soon.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Again, most sports fans are clueless. They watch the ball and not the play.

I for one don't expect it to change for the better anytime soon.

It's a game. If they're entertained, who gives a shit? Honestly, I don't know if anything could possibly sound more holier-than-thou than someone saying, "No, you're not watching the game right, focus on the PLAY man!"

 

[HendrixFan]

It's a game. If they're entertained, who gives a shit? Honestly, I don't know if anything could possibly sound more holier-than-thou than someone saying, "No, you're not watching the game right, focus on the PLAY man!"

I don't think the game entertains them. How many people watch the superbowl? How many watch it because they are entertained by football versus how many watch it because everyone else does.

If they are busy arguing about this player versus that player and enjoy that more than the game itself, then they aren't entertained by it. It is no different than people slowing down to see the aftermath of a car accident at that point. The debate is the entertainment, not the sport.

This thread is for us to talk NBA. I think a holier-than-thou attitude that constitutes enjoyment of the game is appropriate for the venue. I don't go into the more general Lebron thread that was posted the other day and debate with the 75% of responses that are some measure of "basketball sucks who cares".

So...MJ versus Lebron? It is like breakfast tacos versus cake. Both food but for different purposes with little overlap. I guess the optimist can be thankful that it means less Lakers talk for a week or two.

 

[preslove]

Lebron James is this generation's MJ

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Magic Johnson, that is. He's capable of scoring high 20's to low 30's and 10 rebounds & Assists in a game. Pretty similar to how Magic played.

Anyone who compares LBJ to Jordan is an asshole.

 

[child of wonder]

Anyone who compares LBJ to Jordan is an asshole.

If Jordan had fled the Bulls to sign with the Lakers after failing to get past the Pistons in the playoffs, then we could compare MJ and Lebron.

 

[preslove]

If Jordan had fled the Bulls to sign with the Lakers after failing to get past the Pistons in the playoffs, then we could compare MJ and Lebron.

Both MJ's were drafted by very well run franchises with very talented players. Cleveland never gave LBJ a supporting cast as good as any of either team's championship supporting casts. Cleveland sucks as a city, and management was incompetent, and the coaches were nowhere near as good as Riley or Jackson.

 

[child of wonder]

Both MJ's were drafted by very well run franchises with very talented players. Cleveland never gave LBJ a supporting cast as good as any of either team's championship supporting casts. Cleveland sucks as a city, and management was incompetent, and the coaches were nowhere near as good as Riley or Jackson.

This cracks me up.

Look at the roster of the Chicago Bulls during the years they struggled in the playoffs. A young Pippen, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, and junk with a mid 30's Doug Collins in his first head coaching job.

Lebron had about the same level of talent and coaching around him. Rather than elevate his teammates or find ways to improve his game to win, he took off.

One player exerted his will to win, the other bolted for greener pastures. Simple as that.

 

[HendrixFan]

Look at the roster of the Chicago Bulls during the years they struggled in the playoffs. A young Pippen, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, and junk with a mid 30's Doug Collins in his first head coaching job.

Your "facts" are not even close. Jordan played alongside a HoFer in Pippen for all 6 rings. He played with the greatest rebounder (by far) the game has ever seen and another HoFer in Rodman. Jordan's championships came at the helm of a HoFer coach who has won multiple championships without Jordan.

You compare that to Lebron's second best guy, the only all star he played with in Cleveland, Mo Williams? Mo Williams? Mo "I couldn't even start for the Clippers or Jazz" Williams? In the same breath as Pippen.

You are reaching.

Far.

That doesn't even begin to take into account how weak the league was at the time, and how drastically different the game is today.

 

[child of wonder]

Your "facts" are not even close. Jordan played alongside a HoFer in Pippen for all 6 rings. He played with the greatest rebounder (by far) the game has ever seen and another HoFer in Rodman. Jordan's championships came at the helm of a HoFer coach who has won multiple championships without Jordan.

You compare that to Lebron's second best guy, the only all star he played with in Cleveland, Mo Williams? Mo Williams? Mo "I couldn't even start for the Clippers or Jazz" Williams? In the same breath as Pippen.

You are reaching.

Far.

That doesn't even begin to take into account how weak the league was at the time, and how drastically different the game is today.

I'm not comparing championship Jordan to pre-championship Lebron. I'm comparing pre-championship Jordan to pre-championship Lebron.

Prior to Jackson taking the helm, the Bulls weren't too unlike the Cavaliers before Lebron left. Jordan had to carry a poor supporting cast and a young, unproven head coach to the playoffs year after year.

Did the Bulls eventually make some solid moves and hire a better head coach? Yes, that's without question. Jordan didn't leave the franchise before that happened, whereas were Lebron in Jordan's shoes he would have.

How weak the league was at the time? Yes, the Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, Cavaliers, of the 80s and the Knicks, Heat, Magic, Trailblazers, Suns, Jazz, Rockets of the 90s... *yawn* what trash.

 

[zerocool84]

This cracks me up.

Look at the roster of the Chicago Bulls during the years they struggled in the playoffs. A young Pippen, Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, and junk with a mid 30's Doug Collins in his first head coaching job.

Lebron had about the same level of talent and coaching around him. Rather than elevate his teammates or find ways to improve his game to win, he took off.

One player exerted his will to win, the other bolted for greener pastures. Simple as that.

LeBron didn't have talent other. The only other decent player was an all star once (Mo Williams) only because of James.

 

[HendrixFan]

Did the Bulls eventually make some solid moves and hire a better head coach? Yes, that's without question. Jordan didn't leave the franchise before that happened, whereas were Lebron in Jordan's shoes he would have.

Jordan had Pippen and Phil alongside him while he was still losing in the playoffs. Lebron had Mo Williams and Mike Brown. The Mike Brown that decided to play slowdown ball against the Celtics in the playoffs, despite going on a 12-1 tear midseason when Mo Williams, Delonte West and Shaq were out and he was forced to play smallball with Lebron running the point. Instead of running past the C's he slowed it down and grinded out another playoff loss.

Cleveland had wasted contracts on Larry Hughes, Daniel Gibson and Mo Williams already. They took on an aging Jameson who was under a hefty contract. They weren't getting any better. Their plan was to blow it up and start over with a new coach. Wade and Bosh (number 2 and 3 in the free agent extravaganza that summer) had already signed with the Heat. What was Lebron to do? Hope they land....? Who? Boozer was probably the fourth best FA that summer and he was NOT coming back to Cleveland, not after the way he left. He would have had another year with nothing in the cupboard and a new coach to try and work with.

Both Jordan and Lebron started to hit their prime at 27 and won their first championship at that age. That is about where the comparisons stop.

 

[child of wonder]

Jordan had Pippen and Phil alongside him while he was still losing in the playoffs.

For one season: 1989-1990. The year prior Pippen was in his second year and putting up 14 ppg and Doug Collins was head coach. Another year back Pippen was a rookie playing 20 minutes per game. The Bulls second leading scorer in 1987-1988 was Sam Vincent.

SAM FUCKING VINCENT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vincesa01.html

There are a great deal of similarities between what Jordan and Lebron went through their first 6 seasons. Jordan hung around and helped his team get better. Lebron jumped ship despite back to back 60+ win seasons.

 

[QueBert]

Wait wait wait, so the Cav team Lebron was on was as good as the Bulls team Jordan was on? I'm totally dumbfounded that anyone could say Lebron had the same level team he just didn't have the will to win. The Cavs besides James.. Mo Williams was the best player and the only player worth mentioning. After Jordan retired the Bulls still made it to the playoffs the next and had a pretty damn good season overall. The season after Lebron left the Cav's I believe they had the worst record in the NBA.

 

[Chrono]

MJ >>>>>> Lebron.

 

[child of wonder]

Wait wait wait, so the Cav team Lebron was on was as good as the Bulls team Jordan was on? I'm totally dumbfounded that anyone could say Lebron had the same level team he just didn't have the will to win. The Cavs besides James.. Mo Williams was the best player and the only player worth mentioning. After Jordan retired the Bulls still made it to the playoffs the next and had a pretty damn good season overall. The season after Lebron left the Cav's I believe they had the worst record in the NBA.

Jesus Christ, can any of you guys read?

I'm talking about the mid to late 1980's Bulls not the championship 1990's Bulls.

Fuck's sake....

 

[QueBert]

MJ >>>>>> Lebron.

At the present time sure, but James is a few months away from having the single best season of any NBA player ever, and some argue he's already there. By the end of his Lebron's career it won't even be a contest who was better.

 

[child of wonder]

At the present time sure, but James is a few months away from having the single best season of any NBA player ever, and some argue he's already there. By the end of his Lebron's career it won't even be a contest who was better.

OK, you're clearly not worth talking to regarding basketball.

Ask 1989 Jordan of 32/8/8/3, 1962 Oscar Robertson 30/12/11, or 1962 Wilt 50/26/3 if Lebron's 27/8/7/1.7 is the greatest single season ever.

Kids....

 

[QueBert]

OK, you're clearly not worth talking to regarding basketball.

Ask 1989 Jordan of 32/8/8/3, 1962 Oscar Robertson 30/12/11, or 1962 Wilt 50/26/3 if Lebron's 27/8/7/1.7 is the greatest single season ever.

Kids....

Right now James is doing something that's never been done, and the season's far from over. If he continues at this pace he could finish the season with 30ppg+ @ maybe 70% shooting, which is unheard of. Nobodies scored like James this season, not Wilt, not Bird, not anyone. If he goes on a 20 game streak like he has for the past 6, it's a wrap. You bringing up Jordan and have a point. But Robertson & Wilt? take the 20 best NBA players from when they played and put them against even the 20 best 2nd men in the NBA right now. Fuck a Durant, Rondo or CP3, the dudes from back then would get slaughtered by a Westbrook level dude. If you put James in a time machine and let him play in 1962 he would be hitting triple doubles every game. Wilt's stats in 1962 are meaningless, as great as he was we both know he wouldn't be putting up those kinds of numbers today.

I grew up watching the Lakers of the 80's and Magic's my favorite player of all time. I saw all the greats of that era play. None of them looked like James does right now. I've never seen playing like this. His only problem in prior seasons was his lacking mental toughness, but last season I think he got past this. He's gonna be MVP again this year and I'll put money on him being MVP next season too.

 

[HendrixFan]

Ask 1989 Jordan of 32/8/8/3, 1962 Oscar Robertson 30/12/11, or 1962 Wilt 50/26/3 if Lebron's 27/8/7/1.7 is the greatest single season ever.

Kids....

Pace. Pace. Pace.

Wilt has the best rebounding per numbers in NBA history. But when he played (and Oscar) teams were hoisting 150 shots a game and nobody other than Bill Russell played defense. With that many shots, there were more points, rebounds and assists to go around. Though Rodman's rebounding per numbers are tiny compared to Wilt, nobody in NBA history is close to Rodman in percentage of rebounds collected. That is the proper way to adjust for pace.

The NBA in the 80s and 90s was all about ISO players, no ball movement, and players standing around. If you were a scorer you were king. Kobe, Durant and Melo would have dominated like Jordan (think 38ppg) if they played back then or the rules were the same today. The 5 second post rule, hand checking, moving screens and zone defenses all worked to make the game more fluid and move away from ISO ball.

You couldn't double a player in the Jordan era until he had the ball. For a dynamic scorer, that is too late to do anything. These days teams trap the top players and run weakside zone defenses. It forces the ball out of the hands of a particular player and puts increased emphasis on the offensive quality of the #2 and #3 guys on a team to beat a good defense.

I read an article this season that was talking about the difference defense makes these days and it illustrated the point by mentioning that at the time of the article there were something like 8 players averaging 20ppg or more. Just 10 years prior, before most of the rule changes had gone into effect, there were nearly 30 players averaging 20ppg. This comes at a time when the top 15 players in the NBA are clearly head and shoulders better than the early 2000s top 15 guys. That will certainly be conclusive decades from now when you look at HoF stock.

Comparing raw numbers is silly, you compare a player to what his competition at the time is doing. Jordan was clearly the top player in his day, and clearly one of the great scorers in NBA history. Lebron is a swiss army knife of a player that can play 1 through 4 on offense and defend 1 through 5 on defense, all while having amazing court vision and a willingness to move the ball around. His mentality isn't that of a scorer. Melo and Durant are much more fair comparisons to Jordan, and would likely put up similar numbers as Jordan did if they played in his era.

 

[HendrixFan]

Oh, and the newest news on Derrick Rose is that he is thinking of sitting out the season to ensure he will be "110%" before coming back. That is a smart move on his part, and points to the stupid move the Bulls made in not tanking this season. An elite team like theirs doesn't have too many lottery chances to cash in on a good player for a low contract. That decision, along with keeping Boozer instead of amnestying or trading him, will haunt the Bulls for years.

 

[child of wonder]

Pace. Pace. Pace.

Wilt has the best rebounding per numbers in NBA history. But when he played (and Oscar) teams were hoisting 150 shots a game and nobody other than Bill Russell played defense. With that many shots, there were more points, rebounds and assists to go around. Though Rodman's rebounding per numbers are tiny compared to Wilt, nobody in NBA history is close to Rodman in percentage of rebounds collected. That is the proper way to adjust for pace.

The NBA in the 80s and 90s was all about ISO players, no ball movement, and players standing around. If you were a scorer you were king. Kobe, Durant and Melo would have dominated like Jordan (think 38ppg) if they played back then or the rules were the same today. The 5 second post rule, hand checking, moving screens and zone defenses all worked to make the game more fluid and move away from ISO ball.

You couldn't double a player in the Jordan era until he had the ball. For a dynamic scorer, that is too late to do anything. These days teams trap the top players and run weakside zone defenses. It forces the ball out of the hands of a particular player and puts increased emphasis on the offensive quality of the #2 and #3 guys on a team to beat a good defense.

I read an article this season that was talking about the difference defense makes these days and it illustrated the point by mentioning that at the time of the article there were something like 8 players averaging 20ppg or more. Just 10 years prior, before most of the rule changes had gone into effect, there were nearly 30 players averaging 20ppg. This comes at a time when the top 15 players in the NBA are clearly head and shoulders better than the early 2000s top 15 guys. That will certainly be conclusive decades from now when you look at HoF stock.

Comparing raw numbers is silly, you compare a player to what his competition at the time is doing. Jordan was clearly the top player in his day, and clearly one of the great scorers in NBA history. Lebron is a swiss army knife of a player that can play 1 through 4 on offense and defend 1 through 5 on defense, all while having amazing court vision and a willingness to move the ball around. His mentality isn't that of a scorer. Melo and Durant are much more fair comparisons to Jordan, and would likely put up similar numbers as Jordan did if they played in his era.

If you honestly believe that Lebron, Kobe, Durant, or Melo would carve up the Detroit Bad Boys or Celtics of the 1980s and average 38 ppg there's no point in having a conversation anymore. We're light years apart.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Jordan would have NEVER left the Bulls to join two other top 10 players to form a super team. I'm sorry that shit would have never happened and it does diminish Lebron's ring IMHO.