Let's talk Keto

[whm1974]

I never thought of it as being a regional limitation, good point.

It’s just weird to me that for a long time in the US high fat diets where a heart attack waiting to happen and now they may be healthy. Though I dont fully know how ‘keto’ works.

My nephew who’s anit 26 got on it and lost about 40# but also goes to the gym often.

I can see how it would help with diabetes in that it limits the carbs your body has to process.

Well it would be rather hard in not outright impossible to consume a completely or mostly plant based diet on lands that are not suitable for farming, such as grazing and polar regions. or even small islands.

 

[paperfist]

Well it would be rather hard in not outright impossible to consume a completely or mostly plant based diet on lands that are not suitable for farming, such as grazing and polar regions. or even small islands.

No grocery stores in places like that?

Montel Williams on Keto. Remember Montel has MS, and keto has helped him with his fight.

It's not the fat that you get from keto, but the sugar when it comes to heart disease.

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Thanks for listing that book. I picked it up and it's been an interesting tale about sugar so far. Kind of F'ed up how the German's did so much research and it was totally forgotten about after Hitler. Also scary how in the medical field how a few 'experts' were able to drive their points about a topic to the masses even when they were not scientifically accurate.

 

[Mai72]

No grocery stores in places like that?



Thanks for listing that book. I picked it up and it's been an interesting tale about sugar so far. Kind of F'ed up how the German's did so much research and it was totally forgotten about after Hitler. Also scary how in the medical field how a few 'experts' were able to drive their points about a topic to the masses even when they were not scientifically accurate.

NP. The Case Against Sugar is an interesting read. It's crazy that fat gets made to be the villan, yet sugar gets a pass. What researchers have found is sugar is just as addictive as cocaine. They both influence the reward center of the brain. I'm trying to limit my sugar to less than 20g and it's been very difficult. I'll start craving cookies or ice cream, and I have to subdue that craving. I have to watch myself when I make a quick stop to the supermarket, because I'll walk out with a pint of ice cream or cookies.

 

[ArchAngel777]

The issue with table sugar (which is essentially the same as HFCS) is that 50% of it roughly is fructose. Fructose in small amounts (less than 50g per day) is healthy, but when you go beyond 50g a day (which would be 100g of table sugar (sucrose) your liver is overloaded (so to speak) and starts converting the excess to adipose tissue (body fat).

Fructose is not the devil in the case of a completely natural diet (fruits, veggies, whole foods) but it certainly is the devil when you veer off a healthy natural diet.

The 50g of fructose is very easy to hit even if you eat relatively healthy processed food. They tend to sneak in 5-6g of this stuff in everything. Think sauces, some packaged foods (even somewhat healthy packaged foods)... If you like BBQ sauce, you might just hit your limit having it on your ribs.

Corn Syrup, on the other hand (which is 100% glucose) is not as dire. This can be taken in by the muscles directly (as opposed to fructose). So, an Athlete could easily consume 200g of pure corn syrup every day and not likely suffer any ill effects. Some might even be able to handle 400g per day and have it all going to use. In fact, there is a thing called glycogen supercompensation that can allow some athletes to consumed over 1000g of carbs (could be pure glucose if they wanted) and have it completely fill and overfill glycogen stores. I have done this a number of times, and it certainly does work.

That said, most people are not athletic, nor want to be. They just want to keep from being obese. If you don't want to exercise and do strength training, then keto, or keto-like is a very good place to be for these people. They have no real need to consume carbohydrates; they don't do anything that demands the energy, aside from some basic glucose requirements for the brain, which can be produced through gluconeogenesis.

This is why people say the diet AND exercise are really better than just diet. If you exercise regularly, you can loosen up the diet a bit to include more carbs, bceause they will be properly utilized by the body.

 

[mike8675309]

Yes, keto has helped with some diets, but that doesn't mean it's good for you. The diabetes thing is a red herring as if you are not taking in any carbs, of course, your A1C will be low, you're not taking in anything to get stored in muscles, so insulin isn't needed to unlock the pathway (which can't be unlocked when insulin resistance is in your body). The Epilepsy thing is real, especially in children. Yet there is no evidence of the impact of that as a treatment long term. I.e. have epilepsy but live till you're 80, or don't have epilepsy but die at 72. We simply don't know today.

 

[Mai72]

Yes, keto has helped with some diets, but that doesn't mean it's good for you. The diabetes thing is a red herring as if you are not taking in any carbs, of course, your A1C will be low, you're not taking in anything to get stored in muscles, so insulin isn't needed to unlock the pathway (which can't be unlocked when insulin resistance is in your body). The Epilepsy thing is real, especially in children. Yet there is no evidence of the impact of that as a treatment long term. I.e. have epilepsy but live till you're 80, or don't have epilepsy but die at 72. We simply don't know today.

True. We just don't know the long term ramifications of keto. Eating gobs of butter and coconut oil daily can't be great for your heart. Or, can it? We just don't know. And, everyone is different. How you react to food is going to be different from how I react to food. It doesn't really mater because most people are terrible when it comes to sticking to diets. They don't work. In a few years this will be all over anyway.

 

[balloonshark]

Yes, keto has helped with some diets, but that doesn't mean it's good for you. The diabetes thing is a red herring as if you are not taking in any carbs, of course, your A1C will be low, you're not taking in anything to get stored in muscles, so insulin isn't needed to unlock the pathway (which can't be unlocked when insulin resistance is in your body). The Epilepsy thing is real, especially in children. Yet there is no evidence of the impact of that as a treatment long term. I.e. have epilepsy but live till you're 80, or don't have epilepsy but die at 72. We simply don't know today.

I have two questions. I thought diabetes was caused by fat. If that is true then isn't it possible that long term keto might make your diabetes worse in the long run? Also, how do your arteries stay healthy?

 

[paperfist]

NP. The Case Against Sugar is an interesting read. It's crazy that fat gets made to be the villan, yet sugar gets a pass. What researchers have found is sugar is just as addictive as cocaine. They both influence the reward center of the brain. I'm trying to limit my sugar to less than 20g and it's been very difficult. I'll start craving cookies or ice cream, and I have to subdue that craving. I have to watch myself when I make a quick stop to the supermarket, because I'll walk out with a pint of ice cream or cookies.

It is pretty crazy how additive it is. But according to that book they basically forced it on everyone through marketing. In WWII they'd have 'shops' staying open late that sold Coke to soldiers for $00.05. They said sugar helped you fight longer and better. It would replenish your energy levels quickly and all for 18 calories. lol they said you burn that many calories getting dressed.

So it's no wonder it's hard to cut it out, it's in everything like carbs are. Try to find a protein snack, you pretty much can't cause it's got sugar or a carb with it. Even beef jerky is that way.

I have two questions. I thought diabetes was caused by fat. If that is true then isn't it possible that long term keto might make your diabetes worse in the long run? Also, how do your arteries stay healthy?

I'm not an expert, but in reading "The Case Against Sugar" it's not caused by fat, but sugar. It seems like throughout history doctors were paid or incorrectly believed it was caused by fat. As @mike8675309 (lol at the song) points out if you have diabetes (I do) and you cut out the carbs and sugar (sugar is a carb) you'll lower your blood glucose levels and A1C scores. You don't get the same effect by lowering your fat.

The arteries one is interesting as we've heard for eons that too much fat intake will give you a heart attack. Now the Keto diet says (or wants you to believe) otherwise. The thing no one talks about though is if you weigh 300# that is causing negative health effects, so if you go on one of these diets that may cause health issues which one is better staying fat or loosing weight through questionable diets?

 

[crashtech]

@ArchAngel777 , your post #104 is a good synopsis according to what I've read. The only caveat I would add is that nearly all fruit has been selectively bred to be sweeter and sweeter. This may also be something for fruitarians to consider; I don't even know if heritage varieties are available that would have a better balance between carb content and nutrients, as it stands most modern fruit is heavily skewed towards being more caloric and less nutritive all the time.

 

[whm1974]

@ArchAngel777 , your post #104 is a good synopsis according to what I've read. The only caveat I would add is that nearly all fruit has been selectively bred to be sweeter and sweeter. This may also be something for fruitarians to consider; I don't even know if heritage varieties are available that would have a better balance between carb content and nutrients, as it stands most modern fruit is heavily skewed towards being more caloric and less nutritive all the time.

They are heritage varieties available, but you would have to either grow them yourself or go to a decent farmers market where they have them fro sale.

 

[Mai72]

It is pretty crazy how additive it is. But according to that book they basically forced it on everyone through marketing. In WWII they'd have 'shops' staying open late that sold Coke to soldiers for $00.05. They said sugar helped you fight longer and better. It would replenish your energy levels quickly and all for 18 calories. lol they said you burn that many calories getting dressed.

So it's no wonder it's hard to cut it out, it's in everything like carbs are. Try to find a protein snack, you pretty much can't cause it's got sugar or a carb with it. Even beef jerky is that way.



I'm not an expert, but in reading "The Case Against Sugar" it's not caused by fat, but sugar. It seems like throughout history doctors were paid or incorrectly believed it was caused by fat. As @mike8675309 (lol at the song) points out if you have diabetes (I do) and you cut out the carbs and sugar (sugar is a carb) you'll lower your blood glucose levels and A1C scores. You don't get the same effect by lowering your fat.

The arteries one is interesting as we've heard for eons that too much fat intake will give you a heart attack. Now the Keto diet says (or wants you to believe) otherwise. The thing no one talks about though is if you weigh 300# that is causing negative health effects, so if you go on one of these diets that may cause health issues which one is better staying fat or loosing weight through questionable diets?

The sugar industry has a lot of pull. Same with milk. Remember those milk mustache videos in the 90? Tons of money is thrown at research that is very bias. IMO, the issue is this. We consume 1.5 tons of sugar annually. A few hundred years ago, sugar was a luxury. Now, we consume way to much of it. It's causing all kinds of problems. Type 2 diabetes, cancer, heart disease, obesity, depression, anxiety. It has been shown that cancer cells feed on sugar. We still don't know a lot about sugar, but we are starting to see the health ramifications.

We could say the same about eating 5-6 meals a day which is ridiculous. We weren't meant to eat all day. Our ancestors conserved as much energy as they could for the hunt, and would only eat one big meal. Today, that is called OMAD. One Meal a Day. That's what I'm currently doing. I have a 2 hour eating window 6X a week. I'm fasting for 22 hours. There are so many benefits to this approach.

 

[mike8675309]

I have two questions. I thought diabetes was caused by fat. If that is true then isn't it possible that long term keto might make your diabetes worse in the long run? Also, how do your arteries stay healthy?

Type 2 Diabetes root cause in the majority of patients is excess fat. There is evidence that when in a ketogenic state, it is very difficult to have an intake of fat that is considered excess, Similarly when in a non-ketogenic state it is very difficult to have an intake of carbohydrates (whole plant foods) that is considered excess.

If you did have an excess of fat in a ketogenic state, you still wouldn't have a problem with diabetes because diabetes is a problem with excess glucose in your blood. If you are not eating carbs, you can't have glucose in your blood, so you can't have diabetes. That doesn't mean that fat isn't blocking the pathways to unlock insulin triggered glucose uptake. It just means you have no need to have that pathway unlocked. Thus the fallacy of ketogenic diets reversing diabetes.

There is some evidence that a Keto diet reduces fats damage on endothelial cells (cells that line our arteries and make them flexible) by creating mild stress that causes the body to respond in a way that reduces the impact of fat in the blood system. That doesn't mean eating all of that fat is a good thing, it's just that being in a ketogenic state may result in a different behavior that allows the fat to be less harmful than it would otherwise be. Of course, no harm is always better.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5852826/

 

[balloonshark]

Type 2 Diabetes root cause in the majority of patients is excess fat. There is evidence that when in a ketogenic state, it is very difficult to have an intake of fat that is considered excess, Similarly when in a non-ketogenic state it is very difficult to have an intake of carbohydrates (whole plant foods) that is considered excess.

If you did have an excess of fat in a ketogenic state, you still wouldn't have a problem with diabetes because diabetes is a problem with excess glucose in your blood. If you are not eating carbs, you can't have glucose in your blood, so you can't have diabetes. That doesn't mean that fat isn't blocking the pathways to unlock insulin triggered glucose uptake. It just means you have no need to have that pathway unlocked. Thus the fallacy of ketogenic diets reversing diabetes.

There is some evidence that a Keto diet reduces fats damage on endothelial cells (cells that line our arteries and make them flexible) by creating mild stress that causes the body to respond in a way that reduces the impact of fat in the blood system. That doesn't mean eating all of that fat is a good thing, it's just that being in a ketogenic state may result in a different behavior that allows the fat to be less harmful than it would otherwise be. Of course, no harm is always better.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5852826/

Thanks Mike. The info you provided was well written and easily understood. I honestly didn't know if it's possible to make the mechanics behind diabetes causation worse or if something could make it go from type 2 to type 1.

I also suspect that veggies play a role in reducing the damage to the arteries.

 

[paperfist]

Type 2 Diabetes root cause in the majority of patients is excess fat. There is evidence that when in a ketogenic state, it is very difficult to have an intake of fat that is considered excess, Similarly when in a non-ketogenic state it is very difficult to have an intake of carbohydrates (whole plant foods) that is considered excess.

If you did have an excess of fat in a ketogenic state, you still wouldn't have a problem with diabetes because diabetes is a problem with excess glucose in your blood. If you are not eating carbs, you can't have glucose in your blood, so you can't have diabetes. That doesn't mean that fat isn't blocking the pathways to unlock insulin triggered glucose uptake. It just means you have no need to have that pathway unlocked. Thus the fallacy of ketogenic diets reversing diabetes.

There is some evidence that a Keto diet reduces fats damage on endothelial cells (cells that line our arteries and make them flexible) by creating mild stress that causes the body to respond in a way that reduces the impact of fat in the blood system. That doesn't mean eating all of that fat is a good thing, it's just that being in a ketogenic state may result in a different behavior that allows the fat to be less harmful than it would otherwise be. Of course, no harm is always better.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5852826/

So why do skinny people get diabetes? Or are you saying eating fat gives you diabetes?

 

[whm1974]

So why do skinny people get diabetes?

Genetics among other things. I'm skinny and I have Type II.

 

[paperfist]

Genetics among other things. I'm skinny and I have Type II.

Did you eat a lot of fat or sugar?

I’m the first in my family to have it. I’ve always been fat (till recently) and consumed sugar.

 

[whm1974]

Did you eat a lot of fat or sugar?

I’m the first in my family to have it. I’ve always been fat (till recently) and consumed sugar.

Right now I don't, but when I was younger I used lot's of Dr Pepper.

 

[paperfist]

Right now I don't, but when I was younger I used lot's of Dr Pepper.

Ah that stinks. I think Mountain Dew put me over the top. Wish a doctor explained to me about diabetes instead of waiting till I got it.

 

[whm1974]

Ah that stinks. I think Mountain Dew put me over the top. Wish a doctor explained to me about diabetes instead of waiting till I got it.

I still drink diet Mountain Dew as that is now my preferred soda, but I do more tea then soda.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Well it looks like the Keto diet can be used to treat both Type 2 Diabetes and Epilepsy for some people:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317431.php
However my diabetes is well controlled so I probably wouldn't benefit much from it if at all. On top of that, I do not want a restricted diet if it is not even needed.

I dropped 30 pounds and had to drop out because I have pneumonia, but I made some healthy changes from it and I've eliminated using insulin. I may have to go back on, but using 1/5 the amount I was is fine with me.

 

[whm1974]

I dropped 30 pounds and had to drop out because I have pneumonia, but I made some healthy changes from it and I've eliminated using insulin. I may have to go back on, but using 1/5 the amount I was is fine with me.

Hey that is better than nothing. Btw I've heard that using insulin can cause an increase in body fat, any truth to this?

 

[mike8675309]

So why do skinny people get diabetes? Or are you saying eating fat gives you diabetes?

Type 1 diabetes appears to be related to cows milk in childhood for people with specific genetics.

Type 2 diabetes is the result of excess glycogen (sugar) in your blood. This is caused by something reducing the effectiveness of insulin to unlock the pathway for glycogen uptake into your skeletal muscles. Because the glycogen can't be taken into your muscles it sits in your blood. The cause for the pathway problem in most is a diet high in animal fats. These excess dietary fats are forced into the muscles, blocking the ability for insulin to work. other causes could be genetic with people who naturally have a level of insulin resistance.

Hey that is better than nothing. Btw I've heard that using insulin can cause an increase in body fat, any truth to this?

Insulin is a signaling hormone to tell the body to store carbohydrates as fat. Thus insulin resistant people who eat a caloric surplus often gain weight faster than someone who is not insulin resistant.