Let's talk Keto

[deadlyapp]

Necro (sort of) bump.

I just started getting into Keto - and although it's VERY popular right now, part of what intrigued me is that this isn't so much a diet but rather ketosis is... well... science of what your body does when it relys on fat instead of carbs. It's definitely going to be hard for me, especially because I fucking love beers - which has been one of my main sources of weight gain recently.

There is obviously still heavy debate on things - the Keto community seems to want to indicate that fats do not have an affect on your cholesterol (healthy ones, non-trans at least). The jury is still out on that one methinks.

One of my main draws to appeal is the overall good news I hear of once your body switches having more energy. That's been my biggest problems with diets in the past is that ultimately I lack energy and feed off carbs. The next draw is as of my first week, I can totally tell that my body just doesn't care to consume as much anymore. I can have a handful of walnuts or 2 spoons of peanut butter and my body is just like "Okay, I'm good". I don't need a sandwich with chips anymore.

Anyone have experience with cheat days? That's definitely one thing I'm still learning about. Is that something you do rarely (6+ months), semi-rarely (3+ months) or often (once a week or month)?

Hard core keto people will say that having any sort of cheat meal / cheat day will throw you out of ketosis and it takes a long time to get back into it, however most people who have been doing keto for a while and test their ketones find that they re-stabilize within 24 hours or so. The best examples of athletic people who are in long term keto usually include some sort of intermittent fasting and carb top-up and they have great results without any significant health markers being impacted.

I would focus on trying to maintain a fairly strict keto diet for a few months before adding back in cheats. If you work out heavily, then I would think about part time keto and having a carb top up after your workouts.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Anyone have experience with cheat days? That's definitely one thing I'm still learning about. Is that something you do rarely (6+ months), semi-rarely (3+ months) or often (once a week or month)?

Depends on how lean you are. If you have 40+ pounds of fat 200 pounds @ 20% BF, which isn't fat - at all, you could go 2-3 months without a refeed. Once you start approaching 10% body fat, your body will likely start revolting on you and demanding more frequent refeeds.

Anecdotally, every time I approach 10%, my own body starts craving carbs. When I drop to below 8%, my appetite becomes unmanageable where I lose all self control and take in 8K calories in a day, normally followed by another 5K caloric day. At first I used to think this was "emotional eating" and a "lack of self-control", but I can refute that with ease and my spreadsheet log for the past 3 years.

I went 66 days without a single refeed and lost 30 (total of 40 pounds) pounds of fat. It, for the most part, wasn't difficult at all. But it was because I started at 22% BF @ 203 pounds. Now, after gaining my LBM right back (it rebounds fast!) I am sitting at 180 @ ~10%. The rules change when you get lean!

One important note. When my cut ended, I was 163 (looked a bit small, thought I lost some muscle) but within days my weight shot back up to 172ish and another two weeks I was back up to 180 with the same skinfold measurements as when I was 163. The LBM comes right back as well as strength. So even "crash" dieting isn't as dire as some make it out to be. Shit happens, we get depressed, gain weight quickly, and need a way to take it off. The body is quite adept at conserving true muscle while running your fat stores low. There is way too much hysteria on fitness sites regarding this. Just keep your resistance training going during the cut and be confident that when we introduce carbs again, move to maintenance, you will gain most, if not all of it right back - LBM, that is!

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Depends on how lean you are. If you have 40+ pounds of fat 200 pounds @ 20% BF, which isn't fat - at all, you could go 2-3 months without a refeed. Once you start approaching 10% body fat, your body will likely start revolting on you and demanding more frequent refeeds.

Anecdotally, every time I approach 10%, my own body starts craving carbs. When I drop to below 8%, my appetite becomes unmanageable where I lose all self control and take in 8K calories in a day, normally followed by another 5K caloric day. At first I used to think this was "emotional eating" and a "lack of self-control", but I can refute that with ease and my spreadsheet log for the past 3 years.

I went 66 days without a single refeed and lost 30 (total of 40 pounds) pounds of fat. It, for the most part, wasn't difficult at all. But it was because I started at 22% BF @ 203 pounds. Now, after gaining my LBM right back (it rebounds fast!) I am sitting at 180 @ ~10%. The rules change when you get lean!

One important note. When my cut ended, I was 163 (looked a bit small, thought I lost some muscle) but within days my weight shot back up to 172ish and another two weeks I was back up to 180 with the same skinfold measurements as when I was 163. The LBM comes right back as well as strength. So even "crash" dieting isn't as dire as some make it out to be. Shit happens, we get depressed, gain weight quickly, and need a way to take it off. The body is quite adept at conserving true muscle while running your fat stores low. There is way too much hysteria on fitness sites regarding this. Just keep your resistance training going during the cut.

Honestly it's not the CRAVINGS for carbs that I get (that is gone within 1-3 days after I actually enter ketosis). The cravings I get are almost... taste related.

I get tired of the boring taste of non-stop cheese, nuts, veggies, and meats. Almost like my body is just like "Alright enough boring flavors of cheese, egg, and avocado. I want something with some real damn flavor"

Also my love of beer doesn't help.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

My intention with saying so many health professionals saying something about a balanced food choices has nothing to do the likes of the food pyramid, or how we've bounced from eggs are bad to good or anything like that.

Balanced and how I meant it, really comes down to variety. Just because something is good for you, doesn't mean you can get away with eating just that. Your body needs a lot of different things. B Vitamins help metabolize protein... women, especially, gotta watch iron levels, etc, and the list goes on and on, etc.

Our overall understanding increases with more documented studies. That should be a given. And if the experts in the field aren't willing to back pedal when new information or new studies says that they should, then what kind of expert would they be?

 

[ArchAngel777]

Honestly it's not the CRAVINGS for carbs that I get (that is gone within 1-3 days after I actually enter ketosis). The cravings I get are almost... taste related.

I get tired of the boring taste of non-stop cheese, nuts, veggies, and meats. Almost like my body is just like "Alright enough boring flavors of cheese, egg, and avocado. I want something with some real damn flavor"

Also my love of beer doesn't help.

I hear what you are saying, but because keto allows pretty much anything without carbs, all the things you are tired of eating lack something big: Carbs. Ultimately, it is the carbs you are craving, because that is basically the only thing off limits with keto. Tehcnically large amounts of protein are off limits too, but plenty of people eat tons of protein and stay in full ketosis just fine. Anyhow, all I am saying is that whether directly or indirectly, you are craving carbs.

Also, one thing to keep in mind - it appears that high intensity exercise causes one to crave carbs much much more. Anecdotally, this is true for me. If I sit on my butt all day, lift a few weights, there are no cravings... But I do sprints, within a day or so, I tend to start craving high carb based meals.

 

[RPD]

Most cereal should be considered a desert, with the milk it's basically sugar and carbs.

Regarding cheat days, I wouldn't consider doing one until you've stuck to your diet for a minimum of 20 to 30 days, clean. Otherwise your body keeps going back and forth and you never get in the groove.

After that you can have a more realistic handle on cheating, maybe start with a cheat meal instead of turning it into a whole day.

 

[deadlyapp]

Most cereal should be considered a desert, with the milk it's basically sugar and carbs.

Regarding cheat days, I wouldn't consider doing one until you've stuck to your diet for a minimum of 20 to 30 days, clean. Otherwise your body keeps going back and forth and you never get in the groove.

After that you can have a more realistic handle on cheating, maybe start with a cheat meal instead of turning it into a whole day.

If you stick to rice or whole wheat based cereals, it's not really any worse than other carb sources. Using almond milk or similar eliminates the carbs from milk. And after a workout sugar isn't really the end of the world when your body wants a nice quick absorbing carb source.

 

[mike8675309]

Because advances in science/health has directly changed our genetics and dietary needs, right?

Because cavemen had an average lifetime of 30 years.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Holy shit, I just had a HARDCORE craving for anything sweet. I'm not even talking candy or anything. My body was just like "Give me a beer. Give me some chocolate. Give me some fruit - ANYTHING!". This is after being in ketosis for at least 1-2 days already.

I'll be honest, If that's something that you feel in general I can't stand it. I know the first insinuation is to presume it's just dopamine - but I honestly can't say I know what the solution is when the answer is just "Keep eating more salty shit". Eating Bacon as an answer doesn't sound like it would address it for me? I tried eating different kinds of nuts and peanut butter as well.

One of the items I was reading suggested eating Pumpkin seeds, since apparently it has something that can answer your dopamine. Might have to try that because I cratered easily. On the plus side, regardless of me screwing with Keto the last couple weeks - my weight definitely has dropped a bit. More-so than just water weight.

 

[RPD]

Because cavemen had an average lifetime of 30 years.

If there was only some way to explain that.
But you are right I'm sure humans have drastically changed so much since those times that their dietary needs would follow suit.
Just like all other life on the planet has changed their dietary needs so dramatically over the eons... Like I'm sure back in the day lions weren't meat eaters and maybe foraged on roots and only after they had a medical break through of lion vaccines did they turn to eating meat.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If there was only some way to explain that.
But you are right I'm sure humans have drastically changed so much since those times that their dietary needs would follow suit.
Just like all other life on the planet has changed their dietary needs so dramatically over the eons... Like I'm sure back in the day lions weren't meat eaters and maybe foraged on roots and only after they had a medical break through of lion vaccines did they turn to eating meat.

If they had washed their hands they would have lived a lot longer. Proper hygiene is by far the single greatest thing that extended the human lifespan, by far.


So on 1/10 I went on a diet that causes ketosis, however the goal is to attempt to successfully improve my diabetes which includes the possibility for curing it. Yes this has been done and it pans out.

I'm using A VLED diet and being quite strict about it.

Since I started I've lost exactly 10lbs. I'm about 2.5 ketones if anyone is curious but significantly I've gone from 2000mg metformin plus 75 mg insulin to no insulin at all and reduced the metformin to 1500mg.

Naturally this can be attributed in part to the elimination of starches and only sugars in berries and apples in limited quantities, but I've gone pretty much carb free for several days in a row and not seen any changes.

Fasting blood glucose this AM was 91 and 118 after pushing the envelope for breakfast with berries and greek yogurt.

I'm also being religious about exercise and that has made me feel better too. Being a survivor of as serious an MI and not dying can be, decreasing any circulatory plaques and ejection fraction are a plus.

Once this is all done (projected to be before Easter, April 1) I'll let you know. I'll then add back carbs slowly and add high-intensity interval training.

BTW I am a health pro so I know what to monitor and look out for. Others might want to check with their practitioners first.

 

[skyking]

I did keto with good results in 2016/17, but slowly I have put weight back on. This time I will try intermittent fasting. The only reason I will go there instead of keto is the ease of doing it in a household with mixed dieting and goals. When we did keto we did it together.

 

[mike8675309]

You all understand that the reason why your blood sugar drops so much when on a keto diet is because your now carb intake is not signaling any need for insulin, so your body doesn't produce it. It's not indicative of particular biological or metabolic change in your system.

 

[Dental Care]

Plenty of people eat tons of protein and stay in full ketosis just fine.

 

[ArchAngel777]

You all understand that the reason why your blood sugar drops so much when on a keto diet is because your now carb intake is not signaling any need for insulin, so your body doesn't produce it. It's not indicative of particular biological or metabolic change in your system.

Of course, but during that period you are resting your pancreas. That is the goal. Many people can reverse T2D after X amount of time on Keto only to go back to a moderate carb diet and keep BG under control. So some level healing takes place, and this is quite logical and known. Your liver can heal itself too, provided you don't abuse it every single day.I believe both the liver and pancreas are abused quite heavily with the SAD. Fasting has it's place too - For both the liver and pancreas as well as many other tissues.

 

[Kaido]

If you're familiar with 'complete foods' like Soylent, they have Keto versions out. I recently tried Sated:

https://sated.com/

In a nutshell, it's a powder + oil mix that provides 100% nutrition (macros & micros). A serving is 400 calories. You can, of course, add additional protein powder if you want to boost the macro numbers. I don't follow a keto diet (in fact, I'm fairly high-carb), but for those of you doing keto who want some convenience & sweetness, I'd recommend checking it out.

Cost is $90 for 30 meals, or $72 on subscription (you can pause it any time). I tried the vanilla sucralose & really liked it. I actually like it more than Soylent, so I cancelled all of my Soylent subscriptions! They have sucralose-sweetened & naturally-sweetened (blend of stevia etc.). I typically don't like sucralose, but they did a great job with making it taste decent & not have a funky aftertaste.

So this is basically liquid food. Not to be crass, but kind of like what they feed coma patients. Except tuned for keto. I have a Promixx USB-charged blender bottle for mixing it on the go. I like to do meal-prep for most of my meals, but sometimes I don't want to cook or am stuck at work late without dinner or whatever & just need a quick, healthy meal. So this is an interesting option if you want some "emergency food".

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Update after 1/10. Down 22 lbs, typical bp 105/75. Average blood glucose 110 and that reflects the complete discontinuation of all insulin (I was at 75 units Lantus at the start) and am down to 1500 mg metformin from 2000mg. I am about 1/2 way to my goal.

 

[skyking]

Cool! Keto is great out of the gate, and still strong after that. Look into some form of intermittent fasting for maintenance after you get there. It is excellent for lower blood glucose levels.
https://www.endocrinologynetwork.co...ing-controls-blood-glucose-levels-study-finds

 

[Arkaign]

Because cavemen had an average lifetime of 30 years.

This is important. Keto, very similar to how Atkins functioned, can be very powerful as a weight loss path if you do it correctly and somewhat safely. However, long term I don't think it's a great idea just intuitively.

Using fat as energy is great! But also much harder on the body, and without any sense of balance can really jack with your body and brain chemistry, and even damage your kidneys.

If you look at the people on Earth with the longest lifespans (and with good self sufficiency and lack of reliance on medical assistance), you don't see Keto style diet methods. You see conservative portions and balances of fish, vegetables, and grains.

I am in no way saying that Keto is a bad thing, on the contrary especially for someone that might otherwise remain overweight, depressed, and feeling helpless, it can have extraordinary value. It's just important to realize just how much of a shock you are putting your body through by long term ketosis. Using stored fats for energy is the body's emergency mode backup plan. If you go that route excessively and without balance, you may run into other problems down the line.

 

[Mai72]

Plenty of people eat tons of protein and stay in full ketosis just fine.

That is wrong. Excessive protein will kick you out of ketosis.

 

[Mai72]

Montel Williams on Keto. Remember Montel has MS, and keto has helped him with his fight.

It's not the fat that you get from keto, but the sugar when it comes to heart disease.

 

[whm1974]

Well it looks like the Keto diet can be used to treat both Type 2 Diabetes and Epilepsy for some people:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317431.php
However my diabetes is well controlled so I probably wouldn't benefit much from it if at all. On top of that, I do not want a restricted diet if it is not even needed.

 

[paperfist]

It’s really weird to hear eating a high fat diet is good for you.

 

[whm1974]

It’s really weird to hear eating a high fat diet is good for you.

Off hand as far as I can tell it highly depends on the person and what sort of environment he is living in and how active that person is. And of course what is simply available in the region.

There are cultures that consume large amounts of and mostly animal products due to low numbers of edible plants or even none at all.

 

[paperfist]

Off hand as far as I can tell it highly depends on the person and what sort of environment he is living in and how active that person is. And of course what is simply available in the region.

There are cultures that consume large amounts of and mostly animal products due to low numbers of edible plants or even none at all.

I never thought of it as being a regional limitation, good point.

It’s just weird to me that for a long time in the US high fat diets where a heart attack waiting to happen and now they may be healthy. Though I dont fully know how ‘keto’ works.

My nephew who’s anit 26 got on it and lost about 40# but also goes to the gym often.

I can see how it would help with diabetes in that it limits the carbs your body has to process.