Let's talk Keto

[PeterScott]

While interesting, children may be more adaptable than adults and are typically under medical supervision while undergoing Ketogenic diets for medical conditions.

It's great that you currently have low cholesterol, but I will say the same thing I said near the beginning:
Let's talk Keto

Get it checked, especially after you weight loss stops. Since it appears that for most adult, high cholesterol is more the norm on longer term keto diets.

 

[TheVrolok]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29199027?dopt=Abstract



Ten year study good enough for you? Granted, it's a small study (ten children), but none of them had elevated cholesterol, triglycerides, etc after ten years on a ketogenic diet. Including one child who had dyslipidaemia (high triglycerides, high LDL, low HDL) at the start of the study.

You need to review the concept of generalizability.

 

[Mai72]

I work with a woman whose husband had type 2 diabities a few years ago. He's been on keto since then. About 2-3 years. He's also pretty strict with his diet, and consumes mostly meat, eggs, and fish. He eats nuts occasionally. A little ice cream every so often. Since he's been on keto his type 2 has vanished. He had his cholosetrol was checked a few months ago and it's great. Good numbers across the board. He eats butter and olive oil as well. This is also a 50 something male that I'm describing to you guys. Not a 23 year old.

 

[mike8675309]

I think we need to keep in mind that there is no long term data on a group of people following a keto diet. Most studies used today are very short term, have other confounding factors or follow ketosis in people essentially starving themselves. Starving yourself is never good. What we know at metabolic surface has strong indication that someone on a ketogenic diet will see cholesterol will go down (baring a genetic abnormality) , and fat loss will be significant. (Of course type 2 diabetes would benefit since type 2 diabetes is caused by excess fat in muscle cells disrupting insulin signalling. Get the fat out, insulin signaling works, insulin production goes down, beta cells can regenerate)

We don't know the long term impact of ketosis on the human body. Anyone doing it is experimenting. This is unlike what we know about a diet primarily of plants.
We do know the negative long term impact of people claiming they are on a keto diet but not in ketosis.

 

[Muse]

Hmm. Been thinking about this stuff, guess you have to be careful going keto! My cholesterol was a bump above what's "normal" for me and my doctor wants me to recheck it in 3 months from last appt, which was 6 weeks ago. I've cut out the butter, cut the eggs in 1/2.

I've lost a little weight recently, I can put it partly to taking up golf again... 2 days/week, walking a hilly course with a pull cart. Love it. And it's getting a lot easier.

 

[ArchAngel777]

We don't know the long term impact of ketosis on the human body. Anyone doing it is experimenting. This is unlike what we know about a diet primarily of plants.
We do know the negative long term impact of people claiming they are on a keto diet but not in ketosis.

1) Most Vegetarians I knew were fat and unhealthy, while claiming to be healthy (SDA's, I looking at you!). Most Vegans I know look like they are refugees from Ethiopia. Sure, you might be able to provide a fit, reasonably muscled vegan, or a relatively thin vegetarian, but that can be hardly be credited to their diet.

2) If someone is doing a keto diet and not in keto, then by definition, they are not doing a keto diet, or they have something medically wrong with them.

I am not pro keto, or anti-keto. But there were (and are) people groups who have lived for centuries with 95% of their energy intake coming from fatty meats. Some of you have such low respect or evolution... You think there is only one fuel source. New Flash: The body is a complex, very complex organism that can survive (and thrive) on many different diets. Some of you pretend to know more than you do, and others pretend like a lack of evidence is evidence. Go ahead and "wait" for science to tell you something that is already quite intuitive, if it ever does.

Human physiology is so complex and we still don't know as much as we think about it. We know things empirically, but not why or the inner workings of it, which makes many recommendations merely correlation and not causation. Many things are credited to the "reason" and yet, they are often proven wrong as science advances.

The arrogance I find nauseating in this thread is that there is a "special" and "healthy" diet, like some sort of "key" to the "fountain of youth". There is no key and our adaptable body has many ways to survive and thrive. With the way some of you think here, it would be good to remove gravity, so that we don't have to work so hard to move, stand etc... Until you realize, wait... That is what keeps us strong and healthy! Without it, you fall apart, literally. Just like people who always wash their hands so as to remove any source of something "bad" and yet they can't build any immunity because of it.

The body is powerful people and it has a time limit. You will die. Spending your precious time wondering if a carrot stick or a beef stick is going to give you an extra 5 years on this earth is... wasted time. Just like my post here is. This should be quite intuitive. Were not talking about a diet of drinking draino and anti-freeze, so let's stop the hysteria.

 

[Muse]

1) Most Vegetarians I knew were fat and unhealthy, while claiming to be healthy.

I am not and never have been a vegetarian. But I don't eat a whole lot of meat. I really have no opinions about it.

Today I haven't eaten any meat, it so happens. I ate 1/2 an egg, a fair amount of nonfat milk. I eat some meat, less than others. A doctor told me nearly 20 years ago to eat more red meat, eat leafy green veges because I was borderline anemic. I'm not so borderline now but I try to eat some red meat and some leafy greens. I don't like the term you hear all the time "everything in moderation." I never forget Blake's saying "the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." But I don't take that to mean you pig out on cake!

 

[Stg-Flame]

Just throwing out my $.02.

My girlfriend and I did the Keto diet two years ago for about six months. It had results but not the results I'm accustomed to, but the main part is that she had to stop due to health concerns that two different doctors pinpointed as a direct result of our diet. I also work with a guy who has been on a fairly strict Keto diet for the last year and while he's definitely made some significant weight loss progress, he also has to take cholesterol medication and says his doctor is trying to "poison" him with high blood pressure medication even though all of his routine checkups (that he's had prior to starting the diet) said his blood pressure was fine.

For me, when I started getting serious about working out, I went to strength training with calisthenics. Obviously I changed my diet, but the change was merely cutting out fast food completely, replacing candy with fruit, cooking all of my meals (honestly not that hard), and making sure to keep as many preservatives out of my food as possible. The one thing I didn't budge on was potato bread and whole wheat bagels (love my potato bread). I also steered away from the whole "photograph your progress every week with your weigh-ins!" nonsense, but I could see the results each week in the mirror. After four months, I had lost over 50lbs of fat, gained 28lbs of muscle, and could do five one-armed pull-ups (before I started I could barely do one half-assed jump-assisted pull-up).

So, Keto works but you have to keep an eye on your health and don't ignore your doctor. There's also other diets that work great so long as you don't think of them as a diet and instead look at them as a life improvement. 90% of sticking with a new routine is your mindset; the rest is just determination.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

After four months, I had lost over 50lbs of fat, gained 28lbs of muscle

Unless there's something unnatural about what you're doing, color me highly skeptical of your figures. Specifically the muscle gained. You're talking about 7 pounds of muscle per month. Anyone who has ever done any research into what's humanly possible to gain on a monthly or yearly basis will tell you that you've FAR exceeded anything remotely considered to be expected results.

 

[Stg-Flame]

I did a BMI test before I started working out and after. I don't claim to be an expert, I'm just going by what they told me. I could be off on the numbers, but going from barely being able to move my own body around to being able to do one-armed pull ups and handstand pushups, I did gain a considerable amount of muscle.

My point was that it makes me cringe every time I hear someone say they can't get into shape because they don't have time to go to a gym or the money to buy all the memberships, gym bags, gym clothes, etc. It's like people these days don't understand that gyms didn't even become popular with the public until the 1970s.

 

[Mai72]

I did a BMI test before I started working out and after. I don't claim to be an expert, I'm just going by what they told me. I could be off on the numbers, but going from barely being able to move my own body around to being able to do one-armed pull ups and handstand pushups, I did gain a considerable amount of muscle.

My point was that it makes me cringe every time I hear someone say they can't get into shape because they don't have time to go to a gym or the money to buy all the memberships, gym bags, gym clothes, etc. It's like people these days don't understand that gyms didn't even become popular with the public until the 1970s.

Most people are just very good at rationalizing why they can't go to the gym, why they eat unhealthy, etc. Let's look at "I don't have the time." That's bullsh*t because if you have time to watch tv/netflix, play video games you have the time to go to the gym.The thing is they need to decrease or punt the fun activity to make room for the gym. Watch 4 hours of Netflix a night, and stay up until 11pm? Why not bring that down to 2 hours and get to bed at 9pm. Now, you have an additional 2 hours to set up a morning routine that includes the gym, meditation, prayer, reading, etc. Hell. You could even start a side hustle and within a year you could start making additional income. Now, you're feeling and looking much better. You'll also have more income. Win/Win.

Instead, they'll just bitch and moan. Poor me.. Waaaha.. Why me. Life isnt fair, etc.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

Not having time isn't an excuse, I agree.

Anyone can get a few dumbbells for the house. A couple of 20 or 25 pounders and a couple of 35 or 40 pounders for ANY male is enough to put yourself in terms of strength as being better than average... like not even lying lol. You can pick them up on a commercial break... you can pick them up for 40secs before you head out the door for work. You can curl the 35/40 pounders, you can arm circles with 20/25 pounders (might need to do negatives to get there), you can do sits ups holding the 20 pounders in your hands (if situps are too easy/boring), you can do one leg stand-to-your-tip-toes (calves) while holding the 40s... I mean on and on.

There's so much you can do with a few dumbbells at home that half decent strength should be achievable by anyone who wants it.

Add to that push-ups, mountain climbers, etc and you can get at least a really decent cardio work out in... and all on the commercial break of your TV show!

The real key, is that a person has to want it and a person has to be willing to work on their diet as the number one key ingredient to the whole process.

 

[mike8675309]

1) Most Vegetarians I knew were fat and unhealthy, while claiming to be healthy (SDA's, I looking at you!). Most Vegans I know look like they are refugees from Ethiopia. Sure, you might be able to provide a fit, reasonably muscled vegan, or a relatively thin vegetarian, but that can be hardly be credited to their diet.

2) If someone is doing a keto diet and not in keto, then by definition, they are not doing a keto diet, or they have something medically wrong with them.

#1 - Studies have shown that vegetarian and vegan eaters have materially lower bmi then others. That is irregardless of what your anecdotal experience is.
#2 - Regardless of the actual definition of a keto diet, that doesn't keep people from saying they follow a keto diet as an excuse for their poor eating habits and gaining none of the possible benefits. .

 

[ArchAngel777]

#1 - Studies have shown that vegetarian and vegan eaters have materially lower bmi then others. That is irregardless of what your anecdotal experience is.
#2 - Regardless of the actual definition of a keto diet, that doesn't keep people from saying they follow a keto diet as an excuse for their poor eating habits and gaining none of the possible benefits.

1)That is hardly surprising as they also have less lean mass. Additionally, BMI is a terrible method to determine body composition. Feel free to cite your studies that A) use large sample data for vegetarians vs a group other than people on SAD (Standard American Diet), and B) cite something other than BMI references.
2)Regardless of your definition of a vegetarian diet, that doesn't keep people from saying they follow a vegetarian diet as an excuse to stuff their faces with cake, cookies and pie, thus gaining none of the possible benefits.

I think you deliberately mislead people, as you are a cheerleader of a vegetarian diet. I am OK with you liking your vegetables. They are good, part of a healthy diet. But everything you pin on a ketogenic diet as potential for abuse really, for the most part, applies to any diet that doesn't restrict added sugars. Vegans on the other hand are an entirely different people group. I have much respect for them, even if I view them as misguided. That, again, is assuming someone is actually a vegan. People claim all sorts of things, thinking they have a moral high ground, and sneak eat all sorts of crap when no one is looking. Heh, that applies to ANY diet.

 

[mike8675309]

1)That is hardly surprising as they also have less lean mass. Additionally, BMI is a terrible method to determine body composition. Feel free to cite your studies that A) use large sample data for vegetarians vs a group other than people on SAD (Standard American Diet), and B) cite something other than BMI references.
2)Regardless of your definition of a vegetarian diet, that doesn't keep people from saying they follow a vegetarian diet as an excuse to stuff their faces with cake, cookies and pie, thus gaining none of the possible benefits.

I think you deliberately mislead people, as you are a cheerleader of a vegetarian diet. I am OK with you liking your vegetables. They are good, part of a healthy diet. But everything you pin on a ketogenic diet as potential for abuse really, for the most part, applies to any diet that doesn't restrict added sugars. Vegans on the other hand are an entirely different people group. I have much respect for them, even if I view them as misguided. That, again, is assuming someone is actually a vegan. People claim all sorts of things, thinking they have a moral high ground, and sneak eat all sorts of crap when no one is looking. Heh, that applies to ANY diet.

Tell you what, you do the research as I'm pretty sure anything I say is falling on deaf ears. The Nurses Health Study (116,430 single and married women) and the Adventist Health Study 2 (73,308 men and women).

If you want to be healthy, any diet needs to be well planned no one is debating that. Fat people are the only ones that die of heart disease, skinny people die every day due to that and other causes. I'm not saying keto won't give you good health. I'm simply saying there is no scientific evidence of that. Lots and lots of anecdotal, but no science. It's coming though as I know there is research underway. I also have my on anecdotal evidence of people in my friend circle (I see their stupid posts on Facebook) how they are going keto because they are only eating hamburger and sausage and lunch meat and ice creme. Vegans and Vegetarians can both be overweight, particularly due to the explosion of processed plant based foods. I will say that I feel a Ketogenic diet is one that is more challenging to support in today's society, even more than a Vegan diet. Carbs are everywhere.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

I don't really understand going "keto" in terms of eating foods to put your body into that keto state. Like, I don't understand the mind set that comes to a conclusion that it's even a good thing to do in the long term. It seems like an extremely obviously unhealthy long term diet... to eat foods high in fats and low in carbs when your body is most efficient with carbs and fats are less efficient to be used and more likely to be stored. Not to mention the huge variety of foods some people on these attempted plans end up cutting out.

What I *do* fully understand, is grabbing some ketones powder of some kind (amazon has all kinds) and popping a scoop of that on a Friday night where you maybe ate lunch that day, but you skipped dinner, and had the intention to not eat anything except maybe a banana Saturday and an apple Sunday and maybe not eating anything substantial until Monday for lunch. Otherwise the rest of the week (or the majority of your life) is a fairly balanced diet.

In *that* way, you boost your body into that "keto" state (skipping much of the migraine/headache that comes along from getting your body to transition naturally) making it more efficient to burn fats through that weekend, but you're not making some long term diet plan of eating just fatty foods. The combo of the keto state and not eating much allows your body to use up some fat stores. What you put in your face is still the biggest controlling factor, afterall.

I don't know, my OPINION... this keto diet fad is dumb and the keto fasting plan seems more reasonable. Unless there's medical expertise involved, you should probably stay away from a keto *diet* (food eating plan).

 

[balloonshark]

I don't really understand going "keto" in terms of eating foods to put your body into that keto state. Like, I don't understand the mind set that comes to a conclusion that it's even a good thing to do in the long term. It seems like an extremely obviously unhealthy long term diet... to eat foods high in fats and low in carbs when your body is most efficient with carbs and fats are less efficient to be used and more likely to be stored. Not to mention the huge variety of foods some people on these attempted plans end up cutting out.

That's the way I look at it. Putting your body in an unnatural state and eating a bunch of fat just doesn't make sense to me. That's not to say it isn't a good diet for some or that it doesn't work. Most diets work short term but that doesn't mean it's going to be the best for your health in the long term. I guess we'll find out eventually.

 

[Midwayman]

I don't really understand going "keto" in terms of eating foods to put your body into that keto state. Like, I don't understand the mind set that comes to a conclusion that it's even a good thing to do in the long term. It seems like an extremely obviously unhealthy long term diet... to eat foods high in fats and low in carbs when your body is most efficient with carbs and fats are less efficient to be used and more likely to be stored. Not to mention the huge variety of foods some people on these attempted plans end up cutting out.

What I *do* fully understand, is grabbing some ketones powder of some kind (amazon has all kinds) and popping a scoop of that on a Friday night where you maybe ate lunch that day, but you skipped dinner, and had the intention to not eat anything except maybe a banana Saturday and an apple Sunday and maybe not eating anything substantial until Monday for lunch. Otherwise the rest of the week (or the majority of your life) is a fairly balanced diet.

In *that* way, you boost your body into that "keto" state (skipping much of the migraine/headache that comes along from getting your body to transition naturally) making it more efficient to burn fats through that weekend, but you're not making some long term diet plan of eating just fatty foods. The combo of the keto state and not eating much allows your body to use up some fat stores. What you put in your face is still the biggest controlling factor, afterall.

I don't know, my OPINION... this keto diet fad is dumb and the keto fasting plan seems more reasonable. Unless there's medical expertise involved, you should probably stay away from a keto *diet* (food eating plan).

Keto is one of those things that you're either on or not. Its not like most diets where cheat days are only a day to two setback. You can't really do keto for a weekend. I mean you can eat keto foods, but it takes weeks for your body to adapt fully and really get into keto mode. I would venture that a large percentage of people who say they are going keto are not. Even on keto specific forums there is a ton of confusion as to exactly what keto is. Then there are people who constantly can't resist that one high carb thing they love and don't understand it will throw them out of ketosis.

As far as LDL being a problem, Its important to know what LDL you're talking about. Most screens don't break out what types of LDL you have. So on a basic screen keto can put up some scary numbers on occasion. However apparently the LDL type matters. its the higher LDL types that are associated with problems. The ones that have been hanging around for a long time in your body. Keto tends to not have those. The lower LDL numbers, may be up, but because someone in ketotosis is constantly burning this, it doesn't turn into the problematic LDL. (Sorry for not being specific, I read these papers awhile ago when I was looking into all these concerns) So bottom line is that if you're on keto you need to get the LDL panels that will break out what type of ldl you have in order to track if you have a problem.

As for long term... I don't know if anyone really knows. However for many there are some very real benefits they see with weight loss and having a very low carb diet and haven't been able to achieve with traditional diets. Maybe its not the best path for everyone, but many times its about picking the path of least harm. Someone dropping 100+ pounds on keto probably outweighs any other risk. I've dropped over 40 myself, and plan to goto a less strict low-carb maintenance mode when I lose another 10 or so.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

You can't really do keto for a weekend.

Keto state and keto diet are two different things. A long term keto diet will put your body into a keto state. But a keto state is not 100% dependent on a keto long term diet (just eating fats).

A lack of eating will force your body into a keto state. There's all kinds of stories about people losing weight (water weight and fat weight) from being trapped for days (earthquake or what have you). They all have stories of having a terrible headache after a few days and hunger pains. After that passes, the headache and hunger pains aren't really there, anymore. They are in a keto state and their body is consuming itself (the fat).

The stuff off Amazon I was talking about: It jump starts your body into being able to process fats (it doesn't need to take days to get there). It literally puts into your body what it needs to process fats the way a person who basically only eats fats would. The people who are buying this stuff typically use it to put their body into keto mode for a few days (bypassing the headache to boot). In those few days (whether it's a weekend or a few days longer than that or even a full week) they basically are fasting or eating only a few things like a single banana through the whole day. Their body is basically induced into keto mode by the Ketones in the powder of the stuff they bought and their body is forced into a good fat burning mode by combination of the ketones consumed and the lack of food eaten.

 

[Midwayman]

Keto state and keto diet are two different things. A long term keto diet will put your body into a keto state. But a keto state is not 100% dependent on a keto long term diet (just eating fats).

A lack of eating will force your body into a keto state. There's all kinds of stories about people losing weight (water weight and fat weight) from being trapped for days (earthquake or what have you). They all have stories of having a terrible headache after a few days and hunger pains. After that passes, the headache and hunger pains aren't really there, anymore. They are in a keto state and their body is consuming itself (the fat).

The stuff off Amazon I was talking about: It jump starts your body into being able to process fats (it doesn't need to take days to get there). It literally puts into your body what it needs to process fats the way a person who basically only eats fats would. The people who are buying this stuff typically use it to put their body into keto mode for a few days (bypassing the headache to boot). In those few days (whether it's a weekend or a few days longer than that or even a full week) they basically are fasting or eating only a few things like a single banana through the whole day. Their body is basically induced into keto mode by the Ketones in the powder of the stuff they bought and their body is forced into a good fat burning mode by combination of the ketones consumed and the lack of food eaten.

Well the state of ketosis doesn't really have anything to do with a particular diet. Like you said there are many ways to get there, but it typically takes several days to get there as you have a lot of glucose bound up in your fat cells that needs to be cleared out before you enter ketosis. Maintaining that state long term is the trick.

The headaches have plenty of ways to avoid as well. A commercial powder probably just has a high salt content, which is exactly what you're told to do when starting keto. I'm not sure why you'd want to eat ketones though. Ingested ketones might make you test positive using strips, but its your body turning fat into ketones that you really want. I seriously doubt any powder for a few days is doing to do more than just the overall calorie reduction.

What I'm talking about long term isn't just ketosis though. That takes typically 3 days to a week. I'm talking longer term adaptation. Most people see a gradual return to previous endurance levels, etc after 6-8 weeks in ketosis. A lot of other stuff like intense craving for carby food etc tends to decrease in this period as well. The way it feel to me is glucose energy is like having a bucket of gasoline. You can light it all at once, or dribble it out over a bit, but it'll eventually evaporate. Energy on keto feel more like having a hose of gasoline. You never get that peak splash, but you also don't ever run out. Over several weeks you're able to build yourself a bit bigger hose. Day to day you don't feel it as much, but if you do sports you probably will feel it. Even months in I don't get that peak splash that I used to, but I don't feel tired at the end of a 3hr practice either.

As for keto diet.... its not about eating fat. Its about not eating carbohydrates which turn into glucose. Protein is really the main pillar of keto in terms of what you want to eat. You want to make sure you're taking enough in that you're not cannibalizing your lean muscle mass. Fat is just there for satiety. When calculating macros protein is a goal, carbs and fat are limits.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

https://www.perfectketo.com/exogenous-ketones-for-weight-loss/

Take Ketones to Get Into Ketosis Quicker
Not everyone can follow a very strict, high fat, low carb diet. For those who have done ketosis before, they will know that when you get kicked out of ketosis, it can take awhile to get back in. Not anymore. You can use exogenous ketones to ramp your body back into ketosis quicker than it would on it’s own resources.

Using exogenous ketone supplements after a period of eating carbohydrates will tell your body that you want to be using ketones for energy instead of those carbs. Instead of eating very low carb for days, you can just take a scoop of exogenous ketones and get back into ketosis (provided you stop eating carbohydrates).
This makes it so you don’t have to go through the awful “keto flu” phase, which is where all the of the nasty side effects are.

Take Ketones to Avoid the Keto Flu
When your body transitions from using energy from carbohydrates to ketones, there can be a lot of nasty and unwanted side effects. These include low energy, bloating, irritability, headaches, and fatigue. This is because your body is “in between” burning carbs and burning ketones and hasn’t become efficient at burning ketones and producing them from your fat stores yet.
The good news is that you can use exogenous ketones to bridge the gap. While your body is getting used to using ketones, you can supply it with energy to eliminate all of these nasty side effects where it otherwise would be struggling to find efficient energy.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

A commercial powder probably just has a high salt content

I have purchased some for my own entertainment. It doesn't have just high salt content like you say.

 

[HutchinsonJC]

https://www.perfectketo.com/6-tips-to-get-you-into-ketosis-quickly/

#3 Take Exogenous Ketones
Exogenous ketones are supplements to help you get into ketosis faster. The most effective exogenous ketones are those made with beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB ketones). BHB is the most abundant ketone in the body, making up to 78% of total ketone bodies in the blood. It’s also a more efficient fuel source than glucose.

Taking exogenous ketones helps your body get into ketosis faster (sometimes in as little as 24 hours). You still need to eat a low carb, ketogenic diet, but supplementation can decrease the amount of time it takes and decrease unpleasant side effects.

 

[Midwayman]

Interesting. I can see how ingesting ketones might avoid the keto flu. However I'm still not getting their claim on entering ketosis quicker. No doubt that you'll testing positive using strip or so on. Just that testing positive isn't the same as being in ketosis IMO. Though I suppose that is splitting hairs. They're probably defining it as the body burning ketones, where I'm mostly concerned about the conversion of fat into ketones.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Getting into ketosis is very easy and can be done quickly. You just need to deplete liver glycogen. Muscle Glycogen is irrelevant to the production of ketones. Those stores can be full (though it would be unlikely, but possible in a TKD). The liver generally only holds, on average, about 75 grams of glycogen. Doing some moderate intensity exercise fora few hours (2 hour bike ride or 2 hours of swimming at modete effort) and not ingesting many dietary carbohydrates can put someone into ketosis in less than 24 hours. It isn't hard, at all.

ketosis isn't on/off like a light switch. It exists on a spectrum. Fat adapted people are able to produce *more* ketones than those just entering the state. Many studies (I think Peter Attia?) exist where they measure the oxidation of fat (in grams) per minute from exercise from far adapted vs carb adapted. No doubt fat adapted people oxidate fat much faster than carb dependent people. But this isn't better perse, just different.

Also important to note. You don't need to be on a ketogenic diet or in "ketosis" to lose body fat. Because, again, this exists on a spectrum and the body uses all fuels all the time (just in different mixtures) means you just need to find a diet that works for you. People tend to complicate this more than needed. Multiple fuel sources, multiple mixtures of those. Your body will do what it needs to do provided it gets some essential nutrients. Dietary carbs, in moderate or large quantities are absolutely not needed. Technically even in small quantities are not, but trace carbs exist even in meats and other products. Zero (absolute zero) dietary carb is effectively impossible on a natural diet without some food engineering taking place.