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Less than 10 thousand fermi cards delivered,Nvidia stock falls.

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Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
nvidia still has almost twice market share as ATi, don't forget that apple is using nvidia exclusively and Ati isn't too popular in laptops.

ATi hasn't exactly capitalized on nvidia problems because stuff that sells is mid-range.
what?

http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-takes-market-share-2009aug18.aspx
Not to mention that in their latest conference call they talked about having increased their lead in the mobile market.


Also that's a strange idea of exclusivity in my eyes.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
nvidia still has almost twice market share as ATi, don't forget that apple is using nvidia exclusively and Ati isn't too popular in laptops.

ATi hasn't exactly capitalized on nvidia problems because stuff that sells is mid-range.

Welcome to today :) posts like this show how people can really miss news depending on what coverage it gets.

nVidia very likely still has higher market share than AMD/ATi, but not in the laptop market.

And you just gotto feel sorry for the peope buying a gtx280/5 when there are better performing, less priced ATi cards with newer tech available.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,326
758
136
nV launched a product with very low availability. Last reported quarter, without this new part available, they posted a $400Million gross profit.
Don't mislead. Gross profit does not mean that at the bottom line NVDA made 400mil. In the quarter you are thinking of NV's net income was 131mil. Respectable, especially given their situation, but nothing so enormous as you're trying to spin.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Did you not read my entire post and draw some natural, parallel conclusions? Before Phenom II came out, AMD had very little/nothing competitive in the CPU space above $100. Even their cheaper CPU's were easily matched by Intel's competitively priced ones. At the same time, AMD had nothing competitive in the GPU front during most of the nvidia 8800 series run. They had been bleeding massive amounts of cash quarter after quarter, and continued to do so until late last year. It didn't happen over night, but now AMD is doing pretty damn good both with products and finances.

Nvidia is currently not in nearly as bad of a position financially as AMD was during their dearth of poorly competitive products.

LOLZ! That is probably the funniest thing I have heard in a long time! One or two quarters of small profits (<200million each) does NOT make financials all of a sudden "GOOD" when you have debts in the BILLIONS.

Nvidia is STILL in a better financial situation than AMD. Period. Nvidia's product line-up is inferior to AMD's right now, but they are in a better financial situation by far. Billions in the bank >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Billions in debt with small profits
 

TemjinGold

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2006
3,050
65
91
Rome wasn't built in a day and nVidia won't be ruined overnight either. It IS however currently on the path towards destruction. Can nVidia step off this path? Of course but doing so requires them to wake up and realize that bigger and bigger chips with smaller and smaller processes does not necessarily spell success. For the consumer's sake, I hope they wake up soon.
 

NoQuarter

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
1,006
0
76
I like having the big chip option I think nVidia just executed poorly, probably due to a touch of arrogance assuming TSMC could execute perfectly like nVidia does.. Anyway.. I will likely not spend over $200 on a GPU but I think it's important to have the big chip option to push games along. AMD filling in the mid-range in nVidia's wake seems a perfectly fine strategy for both companies, it just happened that nVidia crashed their boat this round.
 
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Dribble

Golden Member
Aug 9, 2005
1,923
459
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It IS however currently on the path towards destruction.
That is to be seen - it might well be the path towards success, but that doesn't stop there being bumps on the way. Remember the very good 5870 is based on the very bad 2900XT.

The fermi architecture has a lot of future promise, its just got to get over the current hurdles of being hard to make and using too much power first.
 

Daedalus685

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2009
1,386
1
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I like having the big chip option I think nVidia just executed poorly, probably due to a touch of arrogance assuming TSMC could execute perfectly like nVidia does.. Anyway.. I will likely not spend over $200 on a GPU but I think it's important to have the big chip option to push games along. AMD filling in the mid-range in nVidia's wake seems a perfectly fine strategy for both companies, it just happened that nVidia crashed their boat this round.
Well, ATI's point is (at least should be) to devise a way to have near perfect crossfire scaling without the issues. If they can get there it won't make a lick of difference the size of a GPU, as you can always just add more. A huge die isn't a requirement to push the industry along. My first impression of the small die strategy was that it will be awesome if it gets there, but it is yet to be seen if it will be possible or not.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Don't mislead. Gross profit does not mean that at the bottom line NVDA made 400mil. In the quarter you are thinking of NV's net income was 131mil. Respectable, especially given their situation, but nothing so enormous as you're trying to spin.
I'm pretty sure he said "gross". You said "net". He's right, and you're right. Who would he be misleading here? If he said "net" of 400million, then you have a court case on your hands!!
;)
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
998
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Well the 6 million figure isnt surprising since AMD has their mid/low range DX11 parts out for awhile now. The 10000 figure for nVIDIA is made purely of GTX480/470 parts, whereas for AMD you got the entire evergreen family.
Fair enough. But, 300,000+ 58x0 units in ~83 days according to this story.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20091214130653_Over_800_Thousand_of_DirectX_11_Graphics_Chips_Shipped_ATI.html

That would mean that in a period of any three days between 9/23 and 12/14 AMD sold more 58x0 cards (not 57xx, 56xx, 54xx, etc.) on average than Nvidia did with their entire Fermi launch up to this point.

Look at Newegg, EVGA GTX470's are on the shelf starting at $10 more than MSRP with only 10k units shipped. How well do we really think Fermi is selling?

I do agree with BenSkywalker in one place though, I don't think Fermi (at least the GTX470/480) is anything near a make or break product for Nvidia in the graphics world, at least not in the near term. Nvidia will learn from what went right and what went wrong and come out stronger from it.

The whole thing with the spin to me is that AMD is spun as negitively as possible, Nvidia is not. I just feel there is some bias from some members I guess. Whatever though, the news is what the news is. 10k Fermis shipped, you can take that however you want.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
4,633
69
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Ion, future tegra wins, future GPU's, business space for GPGPU, future consoles, future handhelds, future cloud computing, possible arm cpu + gpu fusion, future cell phones, future 3D televisions... I think nvidia will be just fine. A year ago everyone was scared shitless about AMD going completely bankrupt, and now they're turning a profit.

On a side note, a buddy of mine got a 2004 Golden Tee Machine. It wasn't working, so as we were taking it apart trying to find out what was wrong, I saw it had a 3dfx video card. Nothing like recycling years old hardware. Ha!
ION, while more powerful, is probably a losing prospect for nVidia. Everyone realizes, hell even Apple has conceded this, that Intel sucks for everything but the lowest end as far as graphics goes. However, that doesn't mean Intel is sitting still and the day will soon come when Intel does HD and games "good enough" for the average user.

You put Tegra (which I'm actually very interested in) and then you put ARM CPU + GPU fusion. This is redundant. Tegra is nVidia's ARM CPU + GPU fusion. I actually think this has a bright future. Especially if the rumors hold true and Nintendo picks Tegra 2 as the basis for their next handheld. You also pointed to handhelds but that's where Tegra also seems to be headed to as well with the need for higher powered and hopefully energy efficient designs.

nVidia is still a very healthy company and unless you're a stockholder, you shouldn't really be worried about them. Yet. No company is going to come out unscathed with a couple of "bad" product cycles like Fermi. But we haven't crossed that bridge and unless you're into doom and gloom, let's hold off on that until we do.

I do think that very soon nVidia is going to need to find different markets because the integrated and low end GPU's will completely disappear from the lineup as ATI and Intel release their CPU+GPU chips.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
The whole thing with the spin to me is that AMD is spun as negitively as possible, Nvidia is not. I just feel there is some bias from some members I guess. Whatever though, the news is what the news is. 10k Fermis shipped, you can take that however you want.
I think part of it is some people have different ideas about what is good, and they take those ideas and use them in their "spin". There are positives and negatives about both companies, but often it's how you think about things which dictates which "side" you support.

Some people like NV because they push the boundaries of performance (which is currently coming at a cost of availability, heat, etc) Other people use the negative consequences of this to attack NV.
Some people like NV because they get things done (PhysX, 3D Vision, etc.) Other people use this as a negative because while NV are getting things done and adding these features, they are typically doing it in a closed way. But they are still getting it done.

Some people like ATI because they manage to improve value for the consumer (from a gaming performance standpoint) by having cheaper products (e.g. HD5850, HD5870) which perform very well, or by doing things which cause lower prices across the board (e.g. the HD48xx launch). While they may be a great value prospect, this is also sometimes a negative because they can't take leadership, or require things like dual GPU cards (which come with associated driver/compatibility issues) which mean they aren't always good.
Some people like ATI because they seem to be more consumer friendly, in terms of claiming support for open standards. (things like 3D hooks in the drivers, support for OpenCL/Bullet physics etc). Others see this negatively because they talk the talk, but not a lot actually comes from it. So while it's nice in terms of idealism, the evidence shows it doesn't really do much for the consumer (e.g. there are no hardware Bullet Physics using games and Havok OpenCL died a death).

And then you just have the die hard fanboys who support one company because that's what they do.

Personally I like value and open standards (or I would like open standards if people used them, but I definitely don't like being locked in). As a result currently ATI is the more favourable 'side', but that can always change, depending on who offers the best value, and how support for various technologies pans out.
Someone like Keys (who has an overclocked i7, SLI GTX480 and 8GB RAM) might prefer the company which offers the most absolute performance, whoever that company might be (I hope I am not putting words into his mouth, but he seems to care more for performance based on his posts and his computer spec, and many people attack him for supporting NV).

Just because someone spins something a particular way doesn't mean they are doing it blindly, it just might mean they have different priorities to another person who might interpret/spin the same story in a different way.
From my point of view, low availability of the GTX4xx cards is a bad thing, because in the UK the pricing is already terrible (GTX470 is equal to an HD5870 in price, but with worse availability), so it means that there is no pressure on ATI to reduce prices (I wouldn't buy anything but an HD5850 due to power issues), so this hurts the prospect of any card from either side becoming better value through a lower price. Which is bad because I like value for money.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
126
I do think that very soon nVidia is going to need to find different markets because the integrated and low end GPU's will completely disappear from the lineup as ATI and Intel release their CPU+GPU chips.
Oh yeah, I can't wait to see what AMD rolls out but as far as I know, the Clarksdale is doing a good enough job handling video for low end stuff.

Add to that it can decode VC1/MPEG4/AVC and probably any other beefy codec and nVidia/ATI won't even be needed for small factor HTPCs.

I personally don't see ATI/nVidia reclaiming this portion of the market.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Oh yeah, I can't wait to see what AMD rolls out but as far as I know, the Clarksdale is doing a good enough job handling video for low end stuff.

Add to that it can decode VC1/MPEG4/AVC and probably any other beefy codec and nVidia/ATI won't even be needed for small factor HTPCs.

I personally don't see ATI/nVidia reclaiming this portion of the market.
Um, ATI will still be around. They are part of this strange company called AMD. AMD is going to do the same thing as Intel, put a GPU on the same package as the CPU, and that GPU will come from... ATI.

Yes, NV will drop out of the market. Why do you think they are working on technologies like Optimus, and making them work with Intel graphics chips? It's so they can still sell their graphics technologies even for solutions with integrated Intel graphics (laptop wise at least).
Also you don't need to offload most decoding, even of 1080, if you have a CPU as powerful as Clarkdale. My 2.5GHz E5200 can do 1080p, so a 2.5GHz+ Clarkdale would be able to do it even without GPU assistance.
Where the need for extra things comes in is with all the advanced features which, AFAIK, Intel doesn't really support/isn't fast enough to pull off with their integrated graphics.
NV are well aware of what will happen in the future, and it's not like they've been ignoring it and sitting on their thumbs waiting for it all to disappear.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
126
Um, ATI will still be around. They are part of this strange company called AMD. AMD is going to do the same thing as Intel, put a GPU on the same package as the CPU, and that GPU will come from... ATI.
Um, yeah - read my post thoroughly, I said AMD (I know AMD owns ATI now.) I'm implying ATI's discrete line up (ie not IGP) as I'd believe the AMD versions wouldn't carry the ATI name/logo, just an AMD processor name.

Optimus isn't going to be used in an HTPC (the market I referred to.)

If someone wants to build their HT system around a laptop, sure I guess. Whatever floats their boat. :D
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Um, yeah - read my post thoroughly, I said AMD (I know AMD owns ATI now.) I'm implying ATI's discrete line up (ie not IGP) as I'd believe the AMD versions wouldn't carry the ATI name/logo, just an AMD processor name.

Optimus isn't going to be used in an HTPC (the market I referred to.)

If someone wants to build their HT system around a laptop, sure I guess. Whatever floats their boat. :D
There are lots of 'desktop' systems which use laptop components. That includes most all in one/touchscreen computers from people like HP, Apple etc, and often that sort of computer also comes with a TV tuner and is designed for multimedia/TV viewing use.
Also building an HTPC around a laptop base is a great idea if you want something small, low power but fast enough for HTPC type use (non-encoding).
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
126
There are lots of 'desktop' systems which use laptop components. That includes most all in one/touchscreen computers from people like HP, Apple etc, and often that sort of computer also comes with a TV tuner and is designed for multimedia/TV viewing use.
Also building an HTPC around a laptop base is a great idea if you want something small, low power but fast enough for HTPC type use (non-encoding).
From the HTPC's I've built and sold, laptop's weren't very welcome due to form factor (something about "it has to fit in my rack.")

While I'm sure some people would go that route, it isn't the most common option, in my experience.
 

dzoner

Banned
Feb 21, 2010
114
0
0
nVidia is still a very healthy company and unless you're a stockholder, you shouldn't really be worried about them. Yet. No company is going to come out unscathed with a couple of "bad" product cycles like Fermi. But we haven't crossed that bridge and unless you're into doom and gloom, let's hold off on that until we do.

I do think that very soon nVidia is going to need to find different markets because the integrated and low end GPU's will completely disappear from the lineup as ATI and Intel release their CPU+GPU chips.
Rather contradictory paragraphs.

If Nvidia's cash cow OEM markets will soon completely disappear why wouldn't shareholders be very worried NOW about it?

That stock is going nowhere but down.
 

dzoner

Banned
Feb 21, 2010
114
0
0
NV are well aware of what will happen in the future, and it's not like they've been ignoring it and sitting on their thumbs waiting for it all to disappear.
The problem isn't Nvidia's awareness, it's the brevity of their options. And of late their execution. Over the next two years the impending loss of nearly all their 86 related markets is going to decimate their cash flow, tank their stock price and make them a buyout target.

Nvidia is in deep trouble.

JHH's job security is in even deeper trouble.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
The problem isn't Nvidia's awareness, it's the brevity of their options. And of late their execution. Over the next two years the impending loss of nearly all their 86 related markets is going to decimate their cash flow, tank their stock price and make them a buyout target.

Nvidia is in deep trouble.

JHH's job security is in even deeper trouble.
NV is only in trouble if Fermi fails as a concept.
Fermi the product can fail (in the HPC markets), but Fermi the concept is their main lifeline.

Fermi was indeed late, and it does have problems, but that in and of itself isn't a problem (although it could cause problems).
NV want/need Fermi to be adopted so that they can sell GPGPU solutions and make boatloads of money, and it is entirely possible that it could happen and they could live happily ever after and make even more money than they do now.
Or it could not happen, and they could slowly decline and then die (or get bought by Intel).

Which it is remains to be seen, but it's entirely plausible that NV could survive nicely on the Fermi concept (widespread, powerful GPGPU) + discrete graphics at least for a good many years, even if not forever.
 

tweakboy

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2010
9,517
2
81
www.hammiestudios.com
That is not looking good for nVidia. Poor production equals poor sales.

I think this whole 480 is the debacle like the 2900 series for ATI

I expect nVidia to challenge ATI and maybe take lead by 6 months.. thx gl:hmm:
 

shangshang

Senior member
May 17, 2008
830
0
0
hehe i used to have a higher respect for the Video forum. Now, it's becoming more of a pissing contest platform. I can always tell how certain people will respond to a post. Eg, guys like Solofly will respond predictably with an ATI friendly post. Keysplayer and Benskywalker will do so for NV.

LOL reading this forum now is an exercise in filtering.

However, the most amusing character has to be Tweakboy.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
152
106
hehe i used to have a higher respect for the Video forum. Now, it's becoming more of a pissing contest platform. I can always tell how certain people will respond to a post. Eg, guys like Solofly will respond predictably with an ATI friendly post. Keysplayer and Benskywalker will do so for NV.

LOL reading this forum now is an exercise in filtering.

However, the most amusing character has to be Tweakboy.
Yeah. Keys always kept a good lid on the rampant back and forth, until he became a focus group member. BFG did a good job after that for a short time, but for the moment it seems that the moderation has gotten pretty moderate. This doesn't seem to work in this particular forum, as anything but zero tolerance seems to spiral out of control in the Video section. I have come to believe there is some outside driving forces for this that I can not understand, because the massive arguing about graphics cards just doesn't make sense to me.
 

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