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Less than 10 thousand fermi cards delivered,Nvidia stock falls.

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TemjinGold

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2006
3,050
65
91
Rather contradictory paragraphs.

If Nvidia's cash cow OEM markets will soon completely disappear why wouldn't shareholders be very worried NOW about it?

That stock is going nowhere but down.
Not at all. Reread that paragraph: He's saying unless you are a shareholder you shouldn't be worried.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Yeah. Keys always kept a good lid on the rampant back and forth, until he became a focus group member. BFG did a good job after that for a short time, but for the moment it seems that the moderation has gotten pretty moderate. This doesn't seem to work in this particular forum, as anything but zero tolerance seems to spiral out of control in the Video section. I have come to believe there is some outside driving forces for this that I can not understand, because the massive arguing about graphics cards just doesn't make sense to me.
On the contrary. I post the same now as I did then. Just with less heat.
 

dzoner

Banned
Feb 21, 2010
114
0
0
NV is only in trouble if Fermi fails as a concept.
Fermi the product can fail (in the HPC markets), but Fermi the concept is their main lifeline.
In ivory towers, concepts rule.
In the business world, profits rule.

Fermi as a 'concept' is meaningless unless it can be implemented in products that make a viable profit.
 

golem

Senior member
Oct 6, 2000
838
3
76
I think part of it is some people have different ideas about what is good, and they take those ideas and use them in their "spin". There are positives and negatives about both companies, but often it's how you think about things which dictates which "side" you support.

Some people like NV because they push the boundaries of performance (which is currently coming at a cost of availability, heat, etc) Other people use the negative consequences of this to attack NV.
Some people like NV because they get things done (PhysX, 3D Vision, etc.) Other people use this as a negative because while NV are getting things done and adding these features, they are typically doing it in a closed way. But they are still getting it done.

Some people like ATI because they manage to improve value for the consumer (from a gaming performance standpoint) by having cheaper products (e.g. HD5850, HD5870) which perform very well, or by doing things which cause lower prices across the board (e.g. the HD48xx launch). While they may be a great value prospect, this is also sometimes a negative because they can't take leadership, or require things like dual GPU cards (which come with associated driver/compatibility issues) which mean they aren't always good.
Some people like ATI because they seem to be more consumer friendly, in terms of claiming support for open standards. (things like 3D hooks in the drivers, support for OpenCL/Bullet physics etc). Others see this negatively because they talk the talk, but not a lot actually comes from it. So while it's nice in terms of idealism, the evidence shows it doesn't really do much for the consumer (e.g. there are no hardware Bullet Physics using games and Havok OpenCL died a death).

And then you just have the die hard fanboys who support one company because that's what they do.

Personally I like value and open standards (or I would like open standards if people used them, but I definitely don't like being locked in). As a result currently ATI is the more favourable 'side', but that can always change, depending on who offers the best value, and how support for various technologies pans out.
Someone like Keys (who has an overclocked i7, SLI GTX480 and 8GB RAM) might prefer the company which offers the most absolute performance, whoever that company might be (I hope I am not putting words into his mouth, but he seems to care more for performance based on his posts and his computer spec, and many people attack him for supporting NV).

Just because someone spins something a particular way doesn't mean they are doing it blindly, it just might mean they have different priorities to another person who might interpret/spin the same story in a different way.
From my point of view, low availability of the GTX4xx cards is a bad thing, because in the UK the pricing is already terrible (GTX470 is equal to an HD5870 in price, but with worse availability), so it means that there is no pressure on ATI to reduce prices (I wouldn't buy anything but an HD5850 due to power issues), so this hurts the prospect of any card from either side becoming better value through a lower price. Which is bad because I like value for money.
Good post!
 

faxon

Platinum Member
May 23, 2008
2,109
1
81
From the HTPC's I've built and sold, laptop's weren't very welcome due to form factor (something about "it has to fit in my rack.")

While I'm sure some people would go that route, it isn't the most common option, in my experience.
i feel that i should put some input on this. i got my laptop originally as a possible mobile gaming platform, with a primary focus on media playback usage. it's got an HDMI output and a 500GB scorpio blue HDD, 2.2GHz C2D, and a GT240m for graphics. ended up not using it much ever around the house cause my needs there shifted, but i loaded up my movie library onto its hard disk, and i now use it as a mobile HTPC. going to a friends to drink and hang? hey, i got my laptop lets watch some movies! get bored? can go play any recent game if i turn the graphics down a bit. couple that with a 18.4" 1600x900 screen (aprox) and you have an excellent platform for watching movies on as well, though the battery life on it isnt the greatest ever with the stock battery. there's definitely a market for mobile HTPCs, it just isnt as big as it is for the ones which fit in a home theater
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
126
i feel that i should put some input on this. i got my laptop originally as a possible mobile gaming platform, with a primary focus on media playback usage. it's got an HDMI output and a 500GB scorpio blue HDD, 2.2GHz C2D, and a GT240m for graphics. ended up not using it much ever around the house cause my needs there shifted, but i loaded up my movie library onto its hard disk, and i now use it as a mobile HTPC. going to a friends to drink and hang? hey, i got my laptop lets watch some movies! get bored? can go play any recent game if i turn the graphics down a bit. couple that with a 18.4" 1600x900 screen (aprox) and you have an excellent platform for watching movies on as well, though the battery life on it isnt the greatest ever with the stock battery. there's definitely a market for mobile HTPCs, it just isnt as big as it is for the ones which fit in a home theater
There definitely is a market for a mobile HTPC, and that market right now is probably college kids or early business execs. The people who I've built HTPC have theater rooms, ie that thing is most likely not leaving the 80"+ canvas where the projector is mounted.

They want fast, simple, none cumbersome, and that is what I try to deliver - gaming isn't on their mind, but the kids do have a 360/PS3 most likely already hooked up (yes, I know PC gaming is better, but it isn't in my best interest to argue with a customer.)

As you said in the end, the market is just more intune now with a receiver like looking HTPC versus a laptop.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,323
758
136
I'm pretty sure he said "gross". You said "net". He's right, and you're right. Who would he be misleading here? If he said "net" of 400million, then you have a court case on your hands!!
;)
Of course he's trying to mislead, or doesn't understand the significance between gross and net himself. He's making an argument that Nvidia has amazing financials, but one of his examples is meaningless. No one cares about gross profit. In Q1 2009 AMD had a gross profit of 511M -- that's over 100mil more than the example of Nvidia's financial dominance that he used. Too bad AMD had a net loss of 416mil for the quarter! Of course he is factually correct, but that fact doesn't matter. He's spinning or genuinely doesn't know the difference himself.

To put forward an example, it's like someone claiming that an old P4 is faster than an i7 because it runs at a higher frequency. The P4 running at a higher frequency is a fact, but that fact is meaningless when you take IPC and core counts into consideration. The fellow making the claim about the P4 is either ignorant or being dishonest, and there's nothing wrong in calling it out.
 
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extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
1,947
6
81
Yes nvidia has issues but don't count them out. I, like most, went ATI this generation. ATI wins this round. For sure. Anyone who isn't a fanboy reaches that conclusion. However, we need both companies around and competing with each other or it's going to suck for everyone.

Remember this:
1. Ati had some real duds (2xxx series) and then went on to make rockin 4xxx and 5xxx series
2. Nvidia's FX series, enough said. But then they went on to make the 8800 stuff. Good enough it's still getting sold and re-branded lol.

Fermi isn't a very appealing product. But it's not an FX series. FX was hot loud and slow. Fermi is hot loud and fast. Don't count nvidia out.

Also, while Charlie is probably right about tegra right now...that doesn't mean that things won't change. The mobile market seems really volatile and the powervr graphics arch. won't cut it for everything. I wouldn't be surprised if Tegra took off at some point.

Nvidia's biggest enemy right now seems to be arrogance...they need to suck it up and start talking to global foundries, etc (suck it up, doesn't matter that it's a company that works closely with your competitor, do it anyway). Try to get multiple suppliers instead of just relying on TSMC. Sucks when you are totally at the mercy of another company.
 

swilli89

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,538
1,143
136
That is to be seen - it might well be the path towards success, but that doesn't stop there being bumps on the way. Remember the very good 5870 is based on the very bad 2900XT.

The fermi architecture has a lot of future promise, its just got to get over the current hurdles of being hard to make and using too much power first.
Isnt the current RV870 (bullshit that they have stuck with "RV" because the 5870 is most def. a high end card, not mid-range.) based off of the RV670 or whatever the 3870 was called? I thought the 2900Xt had that ring bus based arch. but correct me if I am wrong of course.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
998
126
Isnt the current RV870 (bullshit that they have stuck with "RV" because the 5870 is most def. a high end card, not mid-range.) based off of the RV670 or whatever the 3870 was called? I thought the 2900Xt had that ring bus based arch. but correct me if I am wrong of course.
The 2900 had the ring bus, and if I remember correctly so did the 38xx. With the 48xx they went to a hub, I guess it saved a lot of physical space which as we all know is what AMD wants.

The 3870 was basically the 2900 shrunk to 55nm and 256bit memory vs. the worthless 512bit. They also added DX10.1 support and a proper UVD. Otherwise they are pretty closely related from what I understand.

I see Fermi as a 2900, only Fermi has the fastest card where as the 2900 was not. But, AMD has their next gen architecture coming pretty soon if you want to go by the rumors. AMD may have Southern Islands out before Nvidia has their Fermi mid range out... y'ouch. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out ofcourse.

And I'm not sure how Nvidia plans on competing with their mid range that will likely fall somewhere between the 5770 and 5850 (just my guess, nothing to back that up) in performance but a GPU the size of a 5870.
 

faxon

Platinum Member
May 23, 2008
2,109
1
81
There definitely is a market for a mobile HTPC, and that market right now is probably college kids or early business execs. The people who I've built HTPC have theater rooms, ie that thing is most likely not leaving the 80"+ canvas where the projector is mounted.

They want fast, simple, none cumbersome, and that is what I try to deliver - gaming isn't on their mind, but the kids do have a 360/PS3 most likely already hooked up (yes, I know PC gaming is better, but it isn't in my best interest to argue with a customer.)

As you said in the end, the market is just more intune now with a receiver like looking HTPC versus a laptop.
yea you hit it right on lol. im a college kid, so generally when i do home theater for someone its always on the go. i dont wanna deal with lugging a box around with me just to watch the AVIs i have saved, and i usually have my laptop with me anyway, so it's super convenient. at home i usually just use my 26" monitor for watching movies, so i have no need for a specialized box by the TV, you can see my system specs in sig for why :awe:
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Of course he's trying to mislead, or doesn't understand the significance between gross and net himself. He's making an argument that Nvidia has amazing financials, but one of his examples is meaningless. No one cares about gross profit. In Q1 2009 AMD had a gross profit of 511M -- that's over 100mil more than the example of Nvidia's financial dominance that he used. Too bad AMD had a net loss of 416mil for the quarter! Of course he is factually correct, but that fact doesn't matter. He's spinning or genuinely doesn't know the difference himself.

To put forward an example, it's like someone claiming that an old P4 is faster than an i7 because it runs at a higher frequency. The P4 running at a higher frequency is a fact, but that fact is meaningless when you take IPC and core counts into consideration. The fellow making the claim about the P4 is either ignorant or being dishonest, and there's nothing wrong in calling it out.
::::sigh:::: If you say so.. So weary of this BS.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,323
758
136
::::sigh:::: If you say so.. So weary of this BS.
That kind of passive agressive snub doesen't suit you, Keys. If I'm incorrect in my assessment, go ahead and point that out in a post. If I'm breaking forum rules or being unruly, go ahead and do your moderator thing. If we just have a problem for some reason, shoot me a PM or something.
 
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shangshang

Senior member
May 17, 2008
830
0
0
Keys, you need to stop with the passive snub. It gets old. Doesn't look good on you.

You used to post better stuff and take a higher road when NV had a clear lead in hardware. I sense you are less graceful now with the constant passive snub.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Keys, you need to stop with the passive snub. It gets old. Doesn't look good on you.

You used to post better stuff and take a higher road when NV had a clear lead in hardware. I sense you are less graceful now with the constant passive snub.
No no. That's not it at all guys. Call it a passive snub or whatever you want to call it.
I'm truly tired of the nonsense. Responding to HurleyBird would be like talking to a wall.

And you guys are a bit weird. "I need to stop" and "it gets old" would allude to my doing this all the time. Wouldn't it?

You call it a passive snub (first time I've actually ever heard that phrase used), but I call it knowing when to just leave it alone. Back away slowly. Don't waste breathe.

You guys got it now?

Excellent.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,323
758
136
but I call it knowing when to just leave it alone. Back away slowly. Don't waste breathe.

You guys got it now?

Excellent.
Leaving something alone and backing away gracefully would look like this:
"We aren't ever going to agree on this so there's no point in me participating anymore."

Taking a juvenile snipe at someone while trying to get out of a discussion looks like this:
"::::sigh:::: If you say so.. So weary of this BS."

Anyway, this is pretty much to the point where I'm going to back away slowly myself.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Leaving something alone and backing away gracefully would look like this:
"We aren't ever going to agree on this so there's no point in me participating anymore."

Taking a juvenile snipe at someone while trying to get out of a discussion looks like this:
"::::sigh:::: If you say so.. So weary of this BS."

Anyway, this is pretty much to the point where I'm going to back away slowly myself.
This is kind of why I wanted to back out of the "conversation" though.
You are way to pent up and way too serious about it. The petty bickering and such.
Gross, net, mislead. Things that shouldn't even matter in our wildest dreams, come under microscopic scrutiny. I dunno. What do you think about all this stuff?
 

lavaheadache

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2005
6,893
14
81
some people just don't get hardware enthusiasm. Keys, even though he is a "compensated" nVidia flag boy, gives credit where credit is due. Stop letting jealousy blind you boys. Maybe we can stop turning all these threads into patriotic displays of vendor preference, and get on with it.
 

ronnn

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
3,918
0
71
some people just don't get hardware enthusiasm. Keys, even though he is a "compensated" nVidia flag boy, gives credit where credit is due. Stop letting jealousy blind you boys. Maybe we can stop turning all these threads into patriotic displays of vendor preference, and get on with it.
N/M
 
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