League of Legends - F2P MOBA (like DOTA) part 2

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zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
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Meh, again ArPen runes don't add that much damage throughout the game. A few points extra in early levels, and basically nothing against "hard" armored targets. You get more out of flat ArPen against squishie targets, but you really don't need armor pen against those in the first place.

BC is a great item though for the right champs. Same with Ghostblade and Last whisperer. Still if I was going to rush an Armor Pen item it would be Last Whisperer.

It's been awhile since I did the math but assuming you can get 3 stacks of BC on LW > BC at 140 armor, unless you have an additional person on your team autoattacking them. At 170 armor LW is hands down better


Just an FYI on your earlier math where graves had 15 armor at level 1, you should really do the math for 28 armor because no one in their right mind doesn't use flat armor seals. Ghostblade is a godly item in many hands I love it on many junglers (Mundo) .. the MS + AS makes some ganks insanely powerful.
 

zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,042
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And to anyone who spectated my games this weekend, hope you enjoyed watching how I got trolled in damn near every one of them. AFKer's, massive feeders, and just massive trolls in damn near every game. So annoying going a score like 7/1 only to end up 16/8 but still losing. That kind of crap is just.. grrr.

You should have seen Pipixue and my last game last night. The Mord wouldn't shut up or stop feeding Vlad (wtf). I told him to type less and just ask for a lane swap if he needed it. He didn't really shut up but he did lane swap and survive. I went 12-1-11 because Trundle is too damn strong and I couldn't quite tank the inhibitor tower when we dove for the win. It was doubly hilarious because Pipi prefers ghost to flash and every time he chased someone down he would tell everyone you can't do that with flash and the three times he got caught, they all told him flash would have saved him.

Speaking of lane swaps I lost a game the other day as Orianna despite starting 6-2. There was an enemy Ryze and our Ez thought he could shut him down so he went mid and went 2-1 and I went 6-2 dying to ignite + Teemo poison twice. Oriana + Taric is just mad damage at low levels. Unfortunately the Ryze eventually got his items and blew us up despite our superior farm (The J4 from top lane zoned my away from Ryze nicely) =(
 
Oct 25, 2006
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I played 6 ranked games or so yesterday. I lost 3 from people just leaving early game, and I lost a fucking 5v4 because my team was ridiculously dumb, I was about 15/9 that game but 3 other members of my team were at double digit deaths, which meant their riven could single handedly go through my entire team Wonderful. I was doing really well until mid game as lee sin but as soon as those team fights started and the feeding started, it was gg.

Finally, I lost that last game about 14/3 as Riven because my team didn't know how to team fight and went in one by one into team fights and died. Wonderful.

How is ranked actually worse than normal. I haven't had a Dc'er in quite a while in normal, while in raked, i had three in a row.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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It's been awhile since I did the math but assuming you can get 3 stacks of BC on LW > BC at 140 armor, unless you have an additional person on your team autoattacking them. At 170 armor LW is hands down better


Just an FYI on your earlier math where graves had 15 armor at level 1, you should really do the math for 28 armor because no one in their right mind doesn't use flat armor seals. Ghostblade is a godly item in many hands I love it on many junglers (Mundo) .. the MS + AS makes some ganks insanely powerful.


Yep, out of the three items for ArPen in the game, Last Whisperer and Ghostblade are the two best. Starks used to be pretty damn good until they flubbed it. Black Cleaver is only OKAY, but you really need a champ that makes more use of higher ASPD than 1.8. Not every champ needs to cap ASPD at 2.5, nor is it cost effective for them to do so. Xin, and Vayne are two that come to mind that maxing ASPD for them is pretty useful for them. Which is why I said BC is only useful on the right champs. Only most champs is a "meh" item though.

I also went with the base stats to not have to factor in anything. Basically flat armor pens are most effective when the attacker has a high AD and the person being attacked has low armor values. Otherwise, flat armor pen isn't as useful as flat AD. Which is why I don't bother with ArPen runes anymore. I have a full set but rarely use it.
 

crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
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How is ranked actually worse than normal. I haven't had a Dc'er in quite a while in normal, while in raked, i had three in a row.

I get some real winners in Normal at times. I played as Sona in a normal and my lane partner was some melee. So since we didn't have any AD range I decided to build AP Sona. It's a normal and it wasn't even draft so I'm not going to try hard every game. So I started Dring and immediately the Morde was all "I'm going to report you Sona if you ruin my game." Funny thing is he was the one that ended up feeding.

Does ArmedMonkey read the boards or is he just a friend of someone here? I was jungle Malphite the other day with him in mid. My jungle was constantly being invaded by their WW + mid TF and despite me calling out exactly where and when he needed to go to help me, he wouldn't. Apparently "babysitting" the jungle is not important (even though the TF seemed to being doing otherwise). So I never got blue buff and we got rolled.

If you do read this Armed - please watch higher skilled players. They are constantly in and out of lane helping one another when it's needed. You have to protect the jungler or else we get the end result of that game - me being vastly under-leveled and effectively a non-factor.
 
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zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
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I get some real winners in Normal at times. I played as Sona in a normal and my lane partner was some melee. So since we didn't have any AD range I decided to build AP Sona. It's a normal and it wasn't even draft so I'm not going to try hard every game. So I started Dring and immediately the Morde was all "I'm going to report you Sona if you ruin my game." Funny thing is he was the one that ended up feeding.

Does ArmedMonkey read the boards or is he just a friend of someone here? I was jungle Malphite the other day with him in mid. My jungle was constantly being invaded by their WW + mid TF and despite me calling out exactly where and when he needed to go to help me, he wouldn't. Apparently "babysitting" the jungle is not important (even though the TF seemed to being doing otherwise). So I never got blue buff and we got rolled.

If you do read this Armed - please watch higher skilled players. They are constantly in and out of lane helping one another when it's needed. You have to protect the jungler or else we get the end result of that game - me being vastly under-leveled and effectively a non-factor.

No offense to armed but only play with him if you're ready for a troll game. There are a few others like Yenic (only plays Anivia even when we need a support) who you have to gameplan around.
 
Oct 25, 2006
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No offense to armed but only play with him if you're ready for a troll game. There are a few others like Yenic (only plays Anivia even when we need a support) who you have to gameplan around.

Thats why I removed him. Was tired of the feeding.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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I had a normal yesterday where I went in as Ziggs. I was 9/1 at one point. Ended up 11/8 for the game. It was draft normal game. The last two guys to pick called out early they wanted bottom lane together. The other three of us were like, sure. I said I could play whatever. Other guy called top and went there with riven. Third guy said nothing at all. so I decided on ziggs mid when it was my turn to pick. Well third guy picks lee sin jungle. I'm thinking I could deal with this....

Then the last two pick their picks for bot lane. Morde and Shyvanna.

I shit you not, they picked those two to duo together in bot lane against an Ashe and Soraka. They got their ASSES handed to them as you might expect. Morde was 2/12 and Shyv was 1/14 at the end of the game. I could deal with that as the Riven in top lane and myself were winning our lanes handily. Again I was 9/1 and riven was about the same.

That left the deciding factor to the jungles. Unfortunately the Lee Sin was his first time playing Lee and first time Jungling. Never spoke up or I would have done it. So our lee sin was absolutely horrible. was 2/9 from the jungle. By the time team fights were happening, riven and I couldn't carry the other 3 dead weights.
 

krnmastersgt

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2008
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nice to read this after i spent my 7k on ArP quints etc

I still use ArPen for some select heroes, primarily my bot Pantheon. I start with Longsword and rush a Brutalizer with Soraka as my lane partner, tons of damage!

Until they hit level 10 at which point they'll outpace me unless I've been zoning/killing them constantly; which I usually do btw. It's a sort of poke/kill lane but it works pretty well against most bot combos. I just cannot deal with Graves + Raka as the armor they can gain in combat is so ridiculous. Also a smart Cait + Taric or Ali is hard to deal with.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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I still use ArPen for some select heroes, primarily my bot Pantheon. I start with Longsword and rush a Brutalizer with Soraka as my lane partner, tons of damage!

Until they hit level 10 at which point they'll outpace me unless I've been zoning/killing them constantly; which I usually do btw. It's a sort of poke/kill lane but it works pretty well against most bot combos. I just cannot deal with Graves + Raka as the armor they can gain in combat is so ridiculous. Also a smart Cait + Taric or Ali is hard to deal with.

Not sure on ArPen working much better on Panth then any other AD. I explained why the ArPen runes are as handy for Ad champs.

There ARE some champs it is more handy for though. Master Yi or Fiora. They start with an AD steroid skill. They don't need the added AD to last hit reliably. With a much higher base AD, higher scaling, and an AD steroid skill they make much greater use of flat ArPen earlier on when most champs have low armor. Again flat armor penetration is more useful when you have high amounts of AD already and targets have low armor. ArPen + ghost blade on Fiora and Yi is disgusting early game for damage against champs.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Oh, I haven't played with armed monkey in awhile. Those that troll me when I'm trying to play a serious game without warning me first get booted from my friends list. Armed Monkey, Pipique, and HaroxHaro were removed long ago for that.

I don't mind playing the troll game occasionally that I full well know I'll more than likely lose. I go into those games looking to try something off the wall or new when I do like everyone else. Or play a champ I am not good with or haven't played with to get the experience. Then at least I get something out of that game but frustration.

I also don't mind playing with those who are just not great players. I adjust my game accordingly. As long as the person is trying to win and trying to improve their game I don't mind losing. I just hate trolls with a passion.
 
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krnmastersgt

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2008
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Not sure on ArPen working much better on Panth then any other AD. I explained why the ArPen runes are as handy for Ad champs.

There ARE some champs it is more handy for though. Master Yi or Fiora. They start with an AD steroid skill. They don't need the added AD to last hit reliably. With a much higher base AD, higher scaling, and an AD steroid skill they make much greater use of flat ArPen earlier on when most champs have low armor. Again flat armor penetration is more useful when you have high amounts of AD already and targets have low armor. ArPen + ghost blade on Fiora and Yi is disgusting early game for damage against champs.

I enjoy using it on Pantheon due to his quite massive damage output given his ability cooldowns, add in the fact that you have enough ArPen to do full damage on every cast leads to easy control of a lane. Keep in mind this is only meant to work with Soraka as she can supply you with mana while you CONSTANTLY harass your opponents with Q and keep them on their toes with the random W -> HSS.

Also any hero that ever is expected to build a Youmu's Ghostblade tends to build ArPen or scale very well with it. Xin is another example, though after so many hits with the nerf bat no one really uses him anymore. But similar to Fiora and Yi, he has very high damage output with no need for items, they just make him even scarier by letting his natural damage hit you harder and faster.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Well I've been spectating quite a few games lately. I usually watch the streams on own3d quite a bit, but that only gives you one player's perspective. The spectate gives you everything.

One thing I noticed. 9 times out of 10 the reason for a team to start losing happens around level 4 to 6. And damn near every time it's a sequence where someone thinks they can just get that kill if they push in harder. They push in, seeing someone low and die trying, then every one else on their team that is near by or trying to help follows in. Then they all die.

That balls deep attitude loses games the vast majority of times. People just don't know when to back off. No one plans an escape or anticipates help from the other team coming over.

What's worse is once that happens they don't change their play style. They do it again and again. But by that point they are now getting so far behind they are screwed. Now the other team can charge in with impunity and tower dive at will. Then it just snowballs further.

All it takes is for one lane to screw that up or the jungler to chase just a bit too far on a gank. Which usually happens from level 4-6. Sometimes it goes until level 8-10, but that is rarer. At least if people wait until level 8-10 before doing the balls deep bullshit, they have a chance to recover. When you do it earlier, you have no chance to recover. The other team snowballs too fast and you fall too far behind.

I'm not aiming this post at anyone. It is just a general observation I've seen many, many, many times now.

The other thing is people don't learn to cut their losses and compound deaths.

When someone is doing something obviously stupid to get themselves killed. Let them. One death is far less severe to the overall outcome of the game. When 2, or even more die on a team at the same time that is a massive advantage gain to the other team. Massive. Gold, exps, time spent free farming, free dragon kills, and possibly freely able to invade another lane and snowball another kill.

Which brings me to another thing, the team with the first person to reach 3 deaths on a single champ is the one most likely to lose the game. There are statistics to back this up, but I can see it happen every game.

Lastly, one final thing that makes a fairly big difference is map awareness. Especially backing up others on your team. The team that pays attention the fastest and gets together in an area first is going to win. Hands down. If you are mid and see your jungler in a duel in the jungle you need to break off farming ASAP and help your jungler. The lose of a little CS is minor compared to the death of your jungler. People don't seem to comprehend that. If your jungler dies, that means the enemy jungler is that much stronger. The enemy jungler can now free farm your jungle for a bit as well as theirs. Your jungler can not gank when dead and is now falling behind. When they fall behind they can't gank or gank well. They can no longer put pressure on the lanes. The enemy jungler can put pressure and has a higher chance to make a more successful gank.

Same thing for the jungler. If a lane is getting ganked and you are on the same side of the jungle, you need to get over there asap. Screw buffs. Screw farm. GET THERE. The junglers that do save their team most of the time. The junglers that don't lose.
 
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zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
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What's worse is once that happens they don't change their play style. They do it again and again. But by that point they are now getting so far behind they are screwed. Now the other team can charge in with impunity and tower dive at will. Then it just snowballs further.

This is what I see that drives me crazy. I also get a lot of Kog, why don't you come fight with us when you don't have IE yet?
 

Firsttime

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2005
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So I played the Varus. He's good, like really good. Like Ashe with early game. I leveled E first, laned with aggressive supports and dominated trades. He's mad fun. Proper style AD. Not boring auto attack.
 

kyonu

Member
Dec 1, 2011
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So I played the Varus. He's good, like really good. Like Ashe with early game. I leveled E first, laned with aggressive supports and dominated trades. He's mad fun. Proper style AD. Not boring auto attack.

On a serious note, do you think he's sort've balanced or is he OP/UP in anyway?
 

Firsttime

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2005
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Oh he's balanced at the best, for sure not OP. I don't think much in this game is OP. He just fits into how the game is played right now, and where Riot seems to want it to go. There is a plethora of aggressive supports and certain AD's fit really well with those, especially since the sustain nerfs. Varus will be one of them, in the Trist/Urgot class.
 

zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,042
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Winning is really fun. I've been losing more than winning for so long enough now I almost forgot what it felt like. However in the last coupe of days I've gone 9/1 as Kog, 12/1 as Trundle, 9/4 as Kog and 5/0 as Udyr all leading to easy wins in solo queue.

The one Varus I've played with fed 3 kills early on (with our Sona picking up 2 kills in the trades) but the next thing I knew he was 4/4/4 with 20 more cs than the enemy Ashe and I had only ganked bot lane once (killing both Ashe and Alistar). Combined with the multiple ganks I performed for top/mid we went on to win that one easily but I don't really know what to make of Varus yet, he seems a solid AD though I'm not sure how much I like his skills (q is awesome in poke-fests).

Any of you guys jungle J4? I really want to try him out but I've never had much success playing him. Perhaps I'll give him a go in a couple of dominion games tonight to get the feel for him.
 
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crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
4,858
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I've been noticing some dropped frames. I'll be last hitting and a few frames will go missing. So the creep just suddenly vanishes instead of the usual animations and +gold notification. Stuff like that.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Anyone else getting a horrible framerate since the spectator patch?

Not at all.


I played two games last night though with At3c when I got off work.

First game I was Graves bot with At3c taking Alistar. Went against a Varus and Leona bot. Absolutely destroyed them. Varus has surprising early burst and his Q is damn near impossible to dodge for a skillshot. It shoots too fast and has a very wide hitbox. I was getting nailed by it despite the graphic on the screen not even touching me. I'd see it coming, dash to the side, show on my screen it sailing by me with a centimeter to spare, but still taking damage from being hit. Damn annoying.

Still, no AD range out bursts Graves once he hits level 6 unless they got a few levels on him. So the Leona and Varus combo sent me back early since their Skarner got an early gank. I didn't die, but I wasnt' going to hang around to do so. This gave Varus a little bit of a lead, but not much. By the time I hit level 6, I told At3c over Ventrilo to lock Varus down with a stun so I could combo kill him. BAM! Dead Varus from 100% to 0% in the blink of an eye. From there it just got worse for him. I was 12/1 by the time they surrendered at 26 minutes. Couple of people spectating me thought it was a pretty amazing game since that Varus wasn't bad at all. But sooo many people under estimate how much damage Graves does once he reaches level 6. I got against another Graves on bot lane and I am buying something for armor by level 6 if he has a support champ that can stun for him. Not doing that is asking to die.

Funny thing is the rest of my team were kind of "meh" on playing. I think the end score was 14 kills for us and 5 for them. I had 12 of those 14 and one assist. Which means the rest of my team only managed 1 kill and 4 deaths on their own.

Next game didn't go so well though. At3c invited ArmedMonkey to play with us.... yah that didn't work out too well at all. At3c played Varus and he didn't do well either with that champ. both were 0/4 by the 8 minute mark or so. Same with our jungler who actually fed first with the first 3 deaths when Armed and At3c only had 1 each. But since they were failed gank deaths in top and bottom lane, he fed those champs enough to get them strong enough to win the lanes. I was doing well in mid against Viktor as Ziggs, but that didn't last long when the other lanes started invading mid.

Since I didn't want to play with ArmedMonkey again, I called it a night after that game.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
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I've been noticing some dropped frames. I'll be last hitting and a few frames will go missing. So the creep just suddenly vanishes instead of the usual animations and +gold notification. Stuff like that.

I see that in spectator mode, but not when I'm playing.